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Thread: So who does the blame lie with?

  1. #26
    Member jcouts's Avatar
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    What is the fascination with "If Bird coaches the team"? Besides motivating a team that needed little motivation...Bird's role in coaching that team seemed very small other then just being a figurehead. Personally, I always gave Mark Jackson more credit in coaching that team then I ever gave Larry Bird.

    Carlisle, Harter and Jax (to an extent) were the coaches of those teams. Period!
    I agree with that, but I do believe Larry's presence was the only reason any of the players listened to the coaches. He demanded the players' respect and received it. Rick has not had that happen for him.

    If Larry sat on the bench right now and moved Rick down one spot, and ran the team in the exact same way, but through a different voice, I really believe you would see changes.
    Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team. -- Scottie Pippen

  2. #27
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Who is better Brad or Troy.

    Brad is a better passer
    Troy is better at taking the ball to the basket
    Brad is a better midrange shooter
    Troy is a better 3 point shooter.

    Both are horrible defenders - there isn't any other way to say it. Who is worse - I think they are both equally bad. Why do Kings fans bemoan the Kings interior defense - Brad.

    I don't miss Brad at all. And on the list of 20 reasons why the Pacers aren't very good right now, losing Brad would not make my list.

    The biggest mistake made was building the entire team, the entire franchise around JO and Artest. (a mistake that I wholeheartily endorsed by the way) But TPTB built the entire team around both of them. And those two players needed each other in order to be successful. Once Artest had to go I immediately turned on a dime and advocated major changes - including trading JO for the right player.


    For the record here are Brad's and Troy's salaries.

    Brad:
    '07 - 9.6
    '08 - 10.5
    '09 - 11.4
    '10 - 12.2

    Ask Kings fans if they would just rather get rid of Brad and his contract. And that sentiment is what many of us predicted when Brad signed the big contract. In years 4-7 - we wouldn't want him - really at any cost

    Troy
    '07 - 8.2
    '08 - 9.2
    '09 - 10.1
    '10 - 11.0
    '11 - 11.9

  3. #28
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    The irony is that TPTB didn't feel Brad was worth it then, and were somewhat proven right in hindsight. But then they go get the same kind of player, with the same kind of contract, in Murphy.

  4. #29
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    The irony is that TPTB didn't feel Brad was worth it then, and were somewhat proven right in hindsight. But then they go get the same kind of player, with the same kind of contract, in Murphy.


    Yes that proves how bad they wanted to get rid of Jackson

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Yes that proves how bad they wanted to get rid of Jackson
    Well with how many times they have had to absolutely get rid of a player they could have struck gold once. The peja situation wasn't exactly handled well, we wasted that TE on Al, only to get rid of him what 4 months later.

  6. #31
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacersfaninchina View Post
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    This just one of those "the grass is always greener on the other side" type posts.
    they don't say that in China.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacersfaninchina View Post
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    That'd be me.

    Just because Troy Murphy also sucks, doesn't discount the fact that Brad Miller also sucks. They're about equal scorers and defenders, but tell me which is more important in a big man, rebounding (Murphy) or passing (Miller)? Give me rebounding any day, every day. Not to mention how brittle and broken down Brad is.

    Like I said, this is your typical "the grass is greener on the other side" thought process, however there's really no truth to it at all.

    And where exactly did the team get with Brad Miller? A 1st round thumping at the hands of the mighty Boston Celtics? And don't mention how this years team is going nowhere, because this years team doesnt have close to the talent that the 2002-2003 Pacers had.

    Like was just mentioned, they're very similar players and in fact Murphy is slightly more productive and is also 3 years younger.
    He said it again. And nice punctuation for a Chinese poster.

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  7. #32
    Banned PacerMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by IMissReggie View Post
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    I still find it funny that so few people are willing to admit that Maybe JO wasn't the best choice for a Franchise player.
    So maybe you should clue us in to who on the Pacers team SHOULD have been our franchise player?

  8. #33
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Maybe we should have known Bird don't know PGs when he upped Eddie Gill to the two year deal.
    And count me as one who's said that if Bird returns to coach, it's cause Donny and the Simons told him to coach this talent he's accumulated.
    And we'd get a lot more effort than we're getting now.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    they don't say that in China.

    He said it again. And nice punctuation for a Chinese poster.

    :
    I don't get what you're trying to suggest.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  10. #35
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by special ed View Post
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    Maybe we should have known Bird don't know PGs when he upped Eddie Gill to the two year deal.
    And count me as one who's said that if Bird returns to coach, it's cause Donny and the Simons told him to coach this talent he's accumulated.
    And we'd get a lot more effort than we're getting now.
    Yeah...its liike having a Cook put together a 5-course meal with the ingredients that he bought from a 7-Eleven.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  11. #36
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    I thought it was the fans' fault for not "demanding a championship".

    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

  12. #37
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    As if franchise players are a dime-a-dozen. As if, we could have chosen any franchise player. Maybe we should have made James Jones our franchise player, or wait...maybe we should have made Austin Croshere our franchise player.
    Didn't we? It was a pretty healthy contract.


    I can't agree with you, sorry. I think the Pacers should have just signed one of those other 20/10/3 ast/3 blk guys and for a lot less than 18m. I guess the list was so long that TPTB were just overwhelmed by it all and couldn't make a choice, so instead they panicked and signed JO for the max.

    It's so bad that even I'm having trouble remembering all the names on that list, all those guys pulling in 12-14m with those kinds of numbers. KG, no. Shaq, no. There must be some non-rook contracts putting up those numbers for a lot less than JO is making. Guess I'm just having a brain freeze right now.

  13. #38
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Here's a challenge for anyone wanting to defend management.

    Take a look at an Atlantic Division team that I pretty much think is the worst managed team in the NBA (maybe NBA history).

    Then compare it to the Pacers relative to current record and long-term cap situation and explain to me how the Pacers are in better shape - amazingly, the Knicks long-term cap situation is BETTER than the Pacers right now (I have faith we'll screw it up somehow though) and we do have a bunch of young, talented players.

    Then explain to me why DW and LB should keep their jobs.

    Granted, it's worse to be a .500 team and the highest paid team in the league, but it's not a whole lot worse than being a .500 team and have the 6th highest payroll - and you've had a high payroll for the past several years.

    I really thought Knicks management was incomparably bad - until I looked at the Pacer cap situation and current record and realized they actually could be compared with each other. (I'm also coming to realize that Philly may actually be worse-managed than us which is astonishing)
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  14. #39
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    Here's a challenge for anyone wanting to defend management.

    Take a look at an Atlantic Division team that I pretty much think is the worst managed team in the NBA (maybe NBA history).

    Then compare it to the Pacers relative to current record and long-term cap situation and explain to me how the Pacers are in better shape - amazingly, the Knicks long-term cap situation is BETTER than the Pacers right now (I have faith we'll screw it up somehow though) and we do have a bunch of young, talented players.

    Then explain to me why DW and LB should keep their jobs.

    Granted, it's worse to be a .500 team and the highest paid team in the league, but it's not a whole lot worse than being a .500 team and have the 6th highest payroll - and you've had a high payroll for the past several years.

    I really thought Knicks management was incomparably bad - until I looked at the Pacer cap situation and current record and realized they actually could be compared with each other. (I'm also coming to realize that Philly may actually be worse-managed than us which is astonishing)
    Pacers have currently the 17th or 18th highest payroll, JB doesn't count against the cap and we are not paying him, despite what oops'ype is saying
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  15. #40
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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Pacers have currently the 17th or 18th highest payroll, JB doesn't count against the cap and we are not paying him, despite what oops'ype is saying
    Gotcha - doesn't change the issue of Indy being over the cap through the 09/10 season - and that's for 4 players.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  16. #41

    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    You guys may laugh at this... and thats ok with me. There are some players that play for the big contract. Once they get it, the effort goes down. Its a problem that has befuddled the Knicks for several years. Minor injuries become more complicated. A young player with a jammed finger will find a way to get healed and play the next night while a veteran making the big bucks will miss a game or two. Jackson while somewhat a nutcase for his off court behavior, loved the game and played through injuries. Tinsley is the opposite. (IMHO) Many of the changes made are in direct relation to off court behavior and somewhat forced. Were better deals out there? Maybe, but I for one considered the GS trade a good one at the time. We went to 29-24 with a big homestand in front of us, what happened from there is somewhat confusing. Maybe JO is the problem, I don't have an answer.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
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