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Thread: So who does the blame lie with?

  1. #1

    Default So who does the blame lie with?

    Rick? The players? TPTB? The Simons?

    Well Ultimatly it falls on the Simons. But the real problem with this team is
    Walsh/Bird. Since the 61 win season, they have made horrible decisons.

    1. Letting Brad Miller go, even though he got overpaid was stupid. He was the perfect pairing for Jermaine, he could play up top but could also play low when needed and was also a good pairing for JO on D. Murphy(Brad lite)
    has some of these attributes but can not play a lick of D.

    2. Letting James Jones go. For a team that is/was so deprived of shooters, how can you let him go? Even Reggie in his late years was not all that great of a shooter.

    3. Trading Al for Jackson. Nuff said BAD, BAD decision.

    4. The whole Artest 4 Peja 4 Al and a 1st rd pick. I realize Artest put the team in a tough place and they did try to get a shooter, but Peja was never going to stay so we just rented him on another mediocre team.

    There have been other moves other than these but I would not call them complete failures. But here is my point.
    If I were going to build/rebuild a team around JO, I would surround him with
    shooters and good perimeter defenders. Protect him on D and Open things up for him on O. To me Bird/Walsh has done exactly the opposite. Going into this season, even before the latest trade, we were one of the worst shooting teams and also one of the worst perimeter defending teams in the NBA. Why would you take a Low post player like JO and surround him with slashers? The makeup of this team is just all wrong. You have to either build around JO correctly or trade him and become a running/slashing team.

    I will say that the latest trade was a step towards this, but we still are a horrible shooting team and went from a poor team on the perimeter defense to just horrible on defense period. I like all the new players, but none of them will ever start on a championship team.

    "The first step in recovery is to purge our management team"

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Getting Murphy just pisses me off even more about letting Brad go. Murphy is the homeless mans Brad Miller.

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    In no particular order:

    Bad Luck
    Bad Timing
    Ron Artest
    Stephen Jackson
    Jamaal Tinsley
    Jermaine O'Neal
    Donnie Walsh
    Larry Bird
    The Simons
    The Fans
    The Media
    David Harrison
    Marquis Daniels
    Jimmy Hunter
    John Green
    Ben Wallace
    David Stern
    Injuries
    Jonathan Bender
    Sarunas Jasikevicius
    Al Harrington
    Chuck Person
    Rick Carlisle
    Stuff I'm forgetting

    All of it/them. It's never one thing.

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    Getting Murphy just pisses me off even more about letting Brad go. Murphy is the homeless mans Brad Miller.
    But at least Murphy's not overpaid.

    Oh wait.

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strany View Post
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    Rick? The players? TPTB? The Simons?

    Well Ultimatly it falls on the Simons. But the real problem with this team is
    Walsh/Bird. Since the 61 win season, they have made horrible decisons.

    1. Letting Brad Miller go, even though he got overpaid was stupid. He was the perfect pairing for Jermaine, he could play up top but could also play low when needed and was also a good pairing for JO on D. Murphy(Brad lite)
    has some of these attributes but can not play a lick of D.

    2. Letting James Jones go. For a team that is/was so deprived of shooters, how can you let him go? Even Reggie in his late years was not all that great of a shooter.

    3. Trading Al for Jackson. Nuff said BAD, BAD decision.

    4. The whole Artest 4 Peja 4 Al and a 1st rd pick. I realize Artest put the team in a tough place and they did try to get a shooter, but Peja was never going to stay so we just rented him on another mediocre team.

    There have been other moves other than these but I would not call them complete failures. But here is my point.
    If I were going to build/rebuild a team around JO, I would surround him with
    shooters and good perimeter defenders. Protect him on D and Open things up for him on O. To me Bird/Walsh has done exactly the opposite. Going into this season, even before the latest trade, we were one of the worst shooting teams and also one of the worst perimeter defending teams in the NBA. Why would you take a Low post player like JO and surround him with slashers? The makeup of this team is just all wrong. You have to either build around JO correctly or trade him and become a running/slashing team.

    I will say that the latest trade was a step towards this, but we still are a horrible shooting team and went from a poor team on the perimeter defense to just horrible on defense period. I like all the new players, but none of them will ever start on a championship team.

    "The first step in recovery is to purge our management team"
    Didn't we do the Brad Miller for Pollard thing and THEN win 61 games?

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    I still find it funny that so few people are willing to admit that Maybe JO wasn't the best choice for a Franchise player.

  7. #7

    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    I really have no issue saying we should have a different fransise player, but
    whoever it is, it is the job of the management team to put players around him that will directly contibute to the teams success. This is not a JO love thread by any means, but I do feel TPTB have done a poor job of surrounding him with the right kind of players that would lead to our team being more balanced and tougher to play against.

  8. #8

    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    People haven't watched much of Brad Miller lately if you think he is a whole lot better these days than Troy.

    He has lost mobility, he has lost offensive aggressiveness, lost defensive footwork, and his rebounding is trending down toward embarassing.

    The good news is that after his bloated contract is up he can probably be had for a veterans minimum contract, because that's about what he will be worth by then. An American Zan Tabak. I'm not saying he's there now, but he has rapidly gome from all-star to average to a little worse than average. Some of it is due to leaving the Princeton offense, but a lot of it is perhaps due to Brad's famous lack of conditioning.

    Primoz Brezac at his tiny salary was a bigger loss, though he has been hurt most of this year.

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol Sam View Post
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    Didn't we do the Brad Miller for Pollard thing and THEN win 61 games?
    You may be right, I was thinking we got Poly the year of the brawl?

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by IMissReggie View Post
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    I still find it funny that so few people are willing to admit that Maybe JO wasn't the best choice for a Franchise player.
    As if franchise players are a dime-a-dozen. As if, we could have chosen any franchise player. Maybe we should have made James Jones our franchise player, or wait...maybe we should have made Austin Croshere our franchise player.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    What we need at center is... a center. Playing power forwards in that spot is going to be a defensive matchup problem. We need a legit center who can defend and who can score in the paint. It would be nice if he carried some durability with him as well.

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    But at least Murphy's not overpaid.

    Oh wait.
    Well, at least Murphy doesn't break down at the end of every season with a major injury.

    That's the best I've got.

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    As if franchise players are a dime-a-dozen. As if, we could have chosen any franchise player. Maybe we should have made James Jones our franchise player, or wait...maybe we should have made Austin Croshere our franchise player.
    I wonder if Allan Houston is still available...

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Well, at least Murphy doesn't break down at the end of every season with a major injury.

    That's the best I've got.
    Dang it man... did you really need to jinx us like that? Now Murphy is going to come down with spontaneous combustion syndrome or something.

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Players are what they are and won't all of a sudden transform into the players that we need them to be in the next 20+ games.

    Like it or not....Carlisle maybe the best Coaching option that we have. We may suck....but its not Carlisle's fault that he is coaching one of the best PF in the league that is surrounded and supported by a bunch of inconsistent 3rd/4th scoring options that can't defend a wet paper bag. Anything short of having Bird coach the team....I really don't think that Johnny Davis ( or anyone else on the Coaching staff ) will make any difference. As some have pointed out....even if we change offensive strategies.....it won't change the fact that Dunleavy, Tinsley or Murphy are inconsistent scorers that can't defend their player, that Marquis is still injured or that DA is running on fumes.

    IMHO....its TPTB's fault. They built this team by trying to mesh together parts that are "good on paper" but isn't as good "as a whole". We are where we are cuz TPTB gambled on Sarunas, Harrington then DunMurphy and they came up with Snake Eyes.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    I'm not saying he's there now, but he has rapidly gome from all-star to average to a little worse than average. Some of it is due to leaving the Princeton offense, but a lot of it is perhaps due to Brad's famous lack of conditioning.

    This isn't something big, more of just a funny fact.

    This was relevant with the conversation happening, but Oden told us that Brad and Adam Morrison dipped while they practiced during the summer for Team USA. I thought he was saying they put one in while shooting FTs or something, but he said they would scrimmage with a big chaw in.

    Continue......

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC
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    Anything short of having Bird coach the team....I really don't think that Johnny Davis ( or anyone else on the Coaching staff ) will make any difference.
    What is the fascination with "If Bird coaches the team"? Besides motivating a team that needed little motivation...Bird's role in coaching that team seemed very small other then just being a figurehead. Personally, I always gave Mark Jackson more credit in coaching that team then I ever gave Larry Bird.

    Carlisle, Harter and Jax (to an extent) were the coaches of those teams. Period!
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Q: Given all the headaches you've had recently, why are you still doing this? You could be playing golf.


    A: (laughs) Because I'm sick.


    I don't know; it's in my blood. And I'm competitive. I don't know. I played, I coached . . . I didn't want no part of that coaching. But the way I did it, I managed the team and Rick (Carlisle) did the Xs and Os. I loved the defense part of it. I had one of the best (assistants), Dick Harter.

    I couldn't believe the stuff he got out of these guys. But I managed the team and me and Dick did the defense. Every once in a while I'd look at Rick's offense and say, 'You've got too many plays. Keep it simple. And run the stuff we ran in Boston.' We weren't brain surgeons, but we knew how to run the plays.

    It was very interesting to me when I was coaching, how you manage your team. That's very important in this league. This day and age, somebody better be managing your players. And you better touch every one of them every day.


    Why'd I do this? I just think it's in my blood. . . . And the craving for a championship . . . It's the drive that I want to get back there one more time.
    http://pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=30180

    Larry would agree with you Roam.

    (I didn't post a link to the site because it was out of the thread I did put a link for. It didn't have a site link, so I'm not sure where he got it from.)

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    But at least Murphy's not overpaid.

    Oh wait.


    But at least Murphy doesn't have a long term contract like Brad does.

    Oh wait, nevermind, his contract is a full year more.

    According to hoopshype, Murphy will make 11,047,619 in 09-10, while Brad will make 12,250,000. I believe that Brad Miller is worth a little over 10% more than Murphy. Anyone disagree?

    And of course, Murphy makes 11,968,253 in 10-11 while Brad's contract will be done by then.

    So in the last year of Brad's deal, he will make 12,250,000 while Murphy will make 11,968,253 in the last year of his, which is a year later. Thats just a $281,747 difference. Call me stupid, but I think Brad is worth that much more than Murphy.

    What a horrible call by management in 2003 to let him go. It makes it even more pathetic when we get a player who isn't half as good, yet makes almost the same thing.

    -All salaries according to hoopshype.com

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol Sam View Post
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    Dang it man... did you really need to jinx us like that? Now Murphy is going to come down with spontaneous combustion syndrome or something.
    If I were to believe any player would miss games with sinusitis, it would be Troy Murphy.

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Unclebuck. Moving to Carmel? Sellout.
    Narf!

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
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    Getting Murphy just pisses me off even more about letting Brad go. Murphy is the homeless mans Brad Miller.
    Not really. This just one of those "the grass is always greener on the other side" type posts. Brad Miller is no better than Murphy. They're both 6'11" 250 pound softies who can't defend. The difference is, Murphy can at least rebound, ranking in the top-6 in the league each of the past 2 seasons. Not to mention, Brad Miller is as injury prone as Jamaal Tinsley. And where exactly has the great Brad Miller led the Kings? Absolutely nowhere. They're not even going to the playoffs this year.

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    What is the fascination with "If Bird coaches the team"? Besides motivating a team that needed little motivation...Bird's role in coaching that team seemed very small other then just being a figurehead. Personally, I always gave Mark Jackson more credit in coaching that team then I ever gave Larry Bird.

    Carlisle, Harter and Jax (to an extent) were the coaches of those teams. Period!
    So you don't think that this team needs motivation? As many have pointed out....the team has tuned out Carlisle.

    I just feel that we have little options when it comes to a replacement for Carlisle at this point....and if the choice came down to get rid of him ( which I am not adovocating )....I would much rather have Bird run the show then Johnny Davis do it. If anything.....just like how Zeke put the Knicks together.....this is what Bird put together.

    If there is anyone left that can motivate or "tune them back in"....I would hope that it would be Bird....the one guy that has the authority to actually and respect factor to do it.

    I'm not as knowledgeable as most of you are on this.....so I will defer to most of your judgment on this...if most of you feel that Bird is not an option.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Miller is averaging 9.7pts 6.6 rbs 0.2blks, compared to Murphy's 9.4pts 6.5 rbs, 0.6blks.

    Yet Troy is only "half as good?"

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    Default Re: So who does the blame lie with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
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    I believe that Brad Miller is worth a little over 10% more than Murphy. Anyone disagree?
    That'd be me.

    Just because Troy Murphy also sucks, doesn't discount the fact that Brad Miller also sucks. They're about equal scorers and defenders, but tell me which is more important in a big man, rebounding (Murphy) or passing (Miller)? Give me rebounding any day, every day. Not to mention how brittle and broken down Brad is.

    Like I said, this is your typical "the grass is greener on the other side" thought process, however there's really no truth to it at all.

    And where exactly did the team get with Brad Miller? A 1st round thumping at the hands of the mighty Boston Celtics? And don't mention how this years team is going nowhere, because this years team doesnt have close to the talent that the 2002-2003 Pacers had.

    Like was just mentioned, they're very similar players and in fact Murphy is slightly more productive and is also 3 years younger.

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