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Thread: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

  1. #26
    Member Evan_The_Dude's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Yeah so we lost, BUT...

    I think we made progress. I'll give props to Carlisle for making some nice adjustments to the offense to help us get easier baskets, I like the fact that he threw Orien Greene in the mix with a point guard to give us a defensive presence, and I'll even give Carlisle credit for keeping this team focused last night.

    A couple of people mentioned that Granger is still in his slump, and I'm going to disagree. Ok, yes from three-point land he's not knocking them down, but twice last night I saw him split a double team -- once for a dish to Ike for a layup + free throw, and the other time he split it for a nice layup. He had a couple of other aggressive baskets as well. I'll take him attacking the basket [I wish he'd try to draw more fouls] any day over him wasting his talent camping out beyond the three-point line.

    I liked Dunleavy's aggressiveness, I liked Murphy's aggressiveness, and I liked the fact that Jermaine did his thing without dominating the ball. I think what lost us the game tonight was Tinsley's slow feet on Bibby. In the 4th quarter Bibby knocked down a series of jumpers off a few screens -- screens which Tinsley was extremely slow at recovering from.

    Back to Carlisle though. I've said a lot of negative about him even though I don't dislike him at all, I've felt he's not the right coach for this team. It'll take a lot more than one game to convince me that he's the right guy, but last night he made some changes I thought he'd be too stubborn to make.

    The biggest thing he did was he made Jermaine's game blend in with the rest of the offense instead of Jermaine dominating the offense. In addition to that, there was non-stop ball movement all-night-long. It didn't even look like we were the same team we've been offensively all season. Sure, it was against the Kings, but we all know we're known for making other teams' defense look good. We actually shot a good percentage from the field even though we were 1-16 from three-point land. I also noticed that even when Jermaine did get the ball, he'd quickly make his move and shoot the ball instead of waiting for the double-team and causing the rest of the offense to stop.

    Our defense even showed up late in the 4th quarter, but obviously that was too late. I hope they continue working on the defense, and keep the offensive scheme they played last night. The offense was 100% unpredictable, it was effective, there was good rhythm, and it was also fun to watch. But yeah, lets get that defense going...

    Tonight vs. the Jazz we're really going to need our defense to step it up. Jerry Sloan's teams always seem to put on a basketball clinic featuring layup drills. If our defense shows, I think we can win.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    Some of the young whippersnappers who think this season is bad need to check these out....

    http://www.basketballreference.com/t...D&yr=1982&lg=n
    http://www.basketballreference.com/t...D&yr=1984&lg=n
    Thanks MR.

    1983 season, Yes ending the season 9-52 is incredible. After January 1st the Pacers had losing streaks of 6, then 5, then 12, then 5, then 7.

    Pacers never won more than 2 straight and they only did that twice. Once in November and once in December. That was it. So in those losing streaks I referrenced above at no time were they separated by anything more than a "1 game winning streak"

    Wow that is worse than even I remember

    ___________

    OK, now for the 1985 season.

    Well ending the season 3-21, was very unpleasant. Pacers actually had a 3 game winning streak at the end of December. That must have been when I was guaranteeing the playoffs and thinking we had finally "turned the corner. Wayman was going to lead us to the promise land.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    That's a pretty good line.

    It's sucks that leaving Tinsley wide open is smart defense.

    -Bball
    THAT, and the matador defense is why he simply can't play anymore.(as a starter)
    I watched him specifically on 2 series in a row and in both he was trailing his man by FIVE feet as the man ran around a pick. Uncontested layup on one, dish to Jermaines man as Jermaine came to help on the other.
    Gotta stop.

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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy View Post
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    Yeah so we lost, BUT...

    I think we made progress. I'll give props to Carlisle for making some nice adjustments to the offense to help us get easier baskets, I like the fact that he threw Orien Greene in the mix with a point guard to give us a defensive presence, and I'll even give Carlisle credit for keeping this team focused last night.

    A couple of people mentioned that Granger is still in his slump, and I'm going to disagree. Ok, yes from three-point land he's not knocking them down, but twice last night I saw him split a double team -- once for a dish to Ike for a layup + free throw, and the other time he split it for a nice layup. He had a couple of other aggressive baskets as well. I'll take him attacking the basket [I wish he'd try to draw more fouls] any day over him wasting his talent camping out beyond the three-point line.

    I liked Dunleavy's aggressiveness, I liked Murphy's aggressiveness, and I liked the fact that Jermaine did his thing without dominating the ball. I think what lost us the game tonight was Tinsley's slow feet on Bibby. In the 4th quarter Bibby knocked down a series of jumpers off a few screens -- screens which Tinsley was extremely slow at recovering from.

    Back to Carlisle though. I've said a lot of negative about him even though I don't dislike him at all, I've felt he's not the right coach for this team. It'll take a lot more than one game to convince me that he's the right guy, but last night he made some changes I thought he'd be too stubborn to make.

    The biggest thing he did was he made Jermaine's game blend in with the rest of the offense instead of Jermaine dominating the offense. In addition to that, there was non-stop ball movement all-night-long. It didn't even look like we were the same team we've been offensively all season. Sure, it was against the Kings, but we all know we're known for making other teams' defense look good. We actually shot a good percentage from the field even though we were 1-16 from three-point land. I also noticed that even when Jermaine did get the ball, he'd quickly make his move and shoot the ball instead of waiting for the double-team and causing the rest of the offense to stop.

    Our defense even showed up late in the 4th quarter, but obviously that was too late. I hope they continue working on the defense, and keep the offensive scheme they played last night. The offense was 100% unpredictable, it was effective, there was good rhythm, and it was also fun to watch. But yeah, lets get that defense going...

    Tonight vs. the Jazz we're really going to need our defense to step it up. Jerry Sloan's teams always seem to put on a basketball clinic featuring layup drills. If our defense shows, I think we can win.
    Dannys shooting is MESSED up. His form is terrible, he's throwing the ball at the basket on 3's. no chance. Shot an air ball on an uncontested 3!

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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    There may not be any moral victories in the NBA - but at least we saw the effort tonight, at least we saw a little desire, a little aggression, a little heart, a little energy.

    The second half was fun to watch and great to see - and it just shows what a little hustle can do for a team

    3 players I want to focus on. Green, Murphy and Dunleavy

    1) Murphy - finally a little aggression - and he took the ball to the basket (we have to remember horrible defenders were guarding him, mostly Brad Miller or Corliss) - but it was still great to see him driving the ball. I didn't know he could do that

    2) Green - good coaching decision to have him on the floor a lot tonight with a point guard. Green did what he does, defend, create havoc, cause turnovers and just make things happen

    3) Dunleavy - I don't care about his contract, I don't care than it seems like Pacers fans are turning on him. I really like his game he's the second best passer on the team, he's completely unselfish and generally makes the "right play"


    Turnovers in the first half and rebounding in the second half were the undoing.

    But I can't complain about the effort
    I agree. I've said some of my thoughts in other threads, but I guess game specific stuff belongs here most of all.

    1) Greene - great on defense, really impressive and I liked that Rick went that way (not like he's got tons of choices). HOWEVER, Greene on offense is a disaster waiting to happen. By PG standards he's a terrible ball handler and can't be trusted to run the show.

    So you can use him as long as you don't remove offense from the other positions. Rick did that at least once and quickly saw it wasn't working (and subbed). He had Greene, Foster and DA out there and it was just too many offensive breakpoints to keep SAC honest and keep the offense flowing.

    4 on 5 you can make work, 2 on 5 isn't going to score a lot of points.



    2) Dunleavy - inside the arc he's been money. Not just good, but great. He runs the transition better than anyone on the team, which is specifically why I bumped my "no more running" thread to give him credit. I like when I see running with Dun and Murph on the floor.

    They aren't good on defense (Troy is awful in fact), but they can create and convert breaks far better than anyone could on this team back in DEC.

    I think Dun is still lost in the system. He is making wrong cuts or bad spacing choices at times, and I think he's a step behind on some plays. I noticed the first play of the LAC game that he left the FT line flash just as Jeff was passing it too him and that Jeff was clearly frustrated by Dun's choice. To me that looked like Dun just didn't know exactly what the play was trying to accomplish.

    At another point he brought the double to JO by setting up in the same corner as JO's post when JO was pushed off the block already (meaning closer to the corner than normal). This is a TEAM play because Jeff did the same thing last night but went baseline off a JO pass behind the double (for that pretty layup). I just think Dun didn't read it right when he tried to do it because he's not comfortable with it yet.

    Look, its one thing to run from point A to point B, it's another to truly know why and to know what is going to come from that. I don't think Dun has reached that understanding, and that doesn't surprise me anyway given the timing of the trade. I assume Murph is in the same boat.

    Dun can produce for the Pacers, but it's going to take time and it's going to take some overall team adjustment.


    3) Murph has been aggressive the last few games going off the dribble. I really like that. What I don't like is his rebounding compared to Jeff's. Jeff is a MUCH better defender and rebounder, and if Murph isn't making outside jumpers (0-4 from 3 the last 3 games) this isn't even a decision anymore (between him and Jeff).


    4) There are 2 players I want to see getting 40 minutes a night - JO and Jeff. Everyone else I don't trust right now.


    5) Army is on fumes. Love his energy, not sure his body is so fond of it though. He is really struggling out there, especially on offense. Quite a change from the scoring threat he was to start the season. Now he looks a lot more like a guy at the end of his career (inspite of his never-ending energy level). He can't do things on the court that he used to. I prefer Greene seeing more time than him, which Rick did last night.

    Freaking 0-8 from 3 in March, 2-13 overall.


    6) With Tins, Dun, Granger, Murph and DA all shooting poorly (and Shawne too) you have a team effort from 3 in March of 10-49 (20.4%!!!!). You think that affects how hard teams double JO. I do.

    At least Dun has really shifted his focus to inside the arc.


    7) Energy and Desire - I don't see this as the problem at all. I see confidence and understanding as the problem. There is a lot of wheel spinning and counter-productive effort going on out there.

    When you see a long outlet to Dun who throws that ahead to Danny for the dunk, that was all effort. The key is on those plays they knew what they were trying to do and were coordinated in their effort.

    I don't blame Rick at this point because it's just ridiculous to expect a coach to first massively adjust to the new roster, and then to have to repeat that process when he loses Quis along with anyone able to make a 3pt shot.

    That forced them to shift the playbook again after just adjusting to the new players a few weeks prior. I don't think this is anywhere near the best that Rick could get this team playing (meaning without Quis and without the 3 ball - put those things back in and the team is instantly better period).

    If they can stabalize a little I think a strategy better suited to them could be sorted out. Right now I feel like we don't even know what the roster is going to look like from night to night, let alone be able to have some amount of expectations for them (in terms of details of what each of them can do on the court).




    So when is Rick going to quit?
    Probably when Bird trades JO and Granger for a #14 pick, Peja and David West. You know, because the team needs a shooter and need to get back in this deep draft. And right now the team's overall talent level is still running a bit too high for Larry's taste.

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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Quote Originally Posted by pwee31 View Post
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    It's weird, b/c I saw that play differently. To me it looked like Dunleavy flashed, waited there a few seconds, realized Foster wasn't passing him the ball (for whatever reason) so instead of being stagnant, he decided to cut and THEN Jeff decided to throw him the ball. I remember the play well b/c I was yelling at the tv for Jeff to give him the ball, then when the turnover happened I couldn't believe Jeff was upset at Dunleavy, when he clearly held the ball too long. I like Jeff Foster, but he needs to take the blame for some of his mistakes more often.
    Yeah thats what I saw.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I agree. I've said some of my thoughts in other threads, but I guess game specific stuff belongs here most of all.

    1) Greene - great on defense, really impressive and I liked that Rick went that way (not like he's got tons of choices). HOWEVER, Greene on offense is a disaster waiting to happen. By PG standards he's a terrible ball handler and can't be trusted to run the show.

    So you can use him as long as you don't remove offense from the other positions. Rick did that at least once and quickly saw it wasn't working (and subbed). He had Greene, Foster and DA out there and it was just too many offensive breakpoints to keep SAC honest and keep the offense flowing.

    4 on 5 you can make work, 2 on 5 isn't going to score a lot of points.



    2) Dunleavy - inside the arc he's been money. Not just good, but great. He runs the transition better than anyone on the team, which is specifically why I bumped my "no more running" thread to give him credit. I like when I see running with Dun and Murph on the floor.

    They aren't good on defense (Troy is awful in fact), but they can create and convert breaks far better than anyone could on this team back in DEC.

    I think Dun is still lost in the system. He is making wrong cuts or bad spacing choices at times, and I think he's a step behind on some plays. I noticed the first play of the LAC game that he left the FT line flash just as Jeff was passing it too him and that Jeff was clearly frustrated by Dun's choice. To me that looked like Dun just didn't know exactly what the play was trying to accomplish.

    At another point he brought the double to JO by setting up in the same corner as JO's post when JO was pushed off the block already (meaning closer to the corner than normal). This is a TEAM play because Jeff did the same thing last night but went baseline off a JO pass behind the double (for that pretty layup). I just think Dun didn't read it right when he tried to do it because he's not comfortable with it yet.



    If they can stabalize a little I think a strategy better suited to them could be sorted out. Right now I feel like we don't even know what the roster is going to look like from night to night, let alone be able to have some amount of expectations for them (in terms of details of what each of them can do on the court).





    Probably when Bird trades JO and Granger for a #14 pick, Peja and David West. You know, because the team needs a shooter and need to get back in this deep draft. And right now the team's overall talent level is still running a bit too high for Larry's taste.

    It's weird, b/c I saw that play differently. To me it looked like Dunleavy flashed, waited there a few seconds, realized Foster wasn't passing him the ball (for whatever reason) so instead of being stagnant, he decided to cut and THEN Jeff decided to throw him the ball. I remember the play well b/c I was yelling at the tv for Jeff to give him the ball, then when the turnover happened I couldn't believe Jeff was upset at Dunleavy, when he clearly held the ball too long. I like Jeff Foster, but he needs to take the blame for some of his mistakes more often.

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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Thanks MR.

    1983 season, Yes ending the season 9-52 is incredible. After January 1st the Pacers had losing streaks of 6, then 5, then 12, then 5, then 7.

    Pacers never won more than 2 straight and they only did that twice. Once in November and once in December. That was it. So in those losing streaks I referrenced above at no time were they separated by anything more than a "1 game winning streak"

    Wow that is worse than even I remember

    ___________

    OK, now for the 1985 season.

    Well ending the season 3-21, was very unpleasant. Pacers actually had a 3 game winning streak at the end of December. That must have been when I was guaranteeing the playoffs and thinking we had finally "turned the corner. Wayman was going to lead us to the promise land.
    We've really been spoiled for a long time now as fans. I was in a position at that time where sporting event tickets were a perk. You honestly couldn't give away Pacer tickets. I went to a lot games, but I don't think I ever went to a sell out at MSA. I moved out of state in the fall of 91 just in time to miss the birth of the our first decent team. I wouldn't count the Chuck Person led playoff birth team as a decent team. I never want to see this team get that bad again. I'm all for a few more changes in the offseason, but in no way do I want to see us dump J.O. to rebuild. Even if J.O. wants that I don't think there's any chance for that to happen.

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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Are we spoiled? I think part of the problem is the fanbase as a majority doesn't demand a championship. They merely expect above average. Don't misunderstand: Everyone WANTS a championship, but being an above average team in the playoffs is all the the fans as a majority demand (that and not having "thugs").

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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Hicks, I hear this theory tossed around but when has a fan base ever turned a franchise around? On the my list of things that makes a fanchise champions the demands of the fans isn't on the list.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian View Post
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    Hicks, I hear this theory tossed around but when has a fan base ever turned a franchise around? On the my list of things that makes a fanchise champions the demands of the fans isn't on the list.
    It's not that. Fans don't turn a franchise around. But I think it would be beneficial if the attitude/spirit surrounding the franchise was "championships or bust" (so to speak). I think it has to be not just the fans, but the fans and the management, the coaches, and the players. I only sense it from some of the players (not so much right now, but previously JO would make that clear), but not anyone else in the franchise. I think if we as fans start to carry that attitude around more that it might start to have an effect on the mindset of everyone involved with the team, if even a little.

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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
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    At this point I'll take any kind of victory we can get, if David Harrison came out and got a victory in a halftime pie eating contest against Brad Miller..I would take it. Any kind of victory at this point would be nice.
    Harrison couldn't do it, not enough court time.

    I do wonder if Harrison could ever get close to these numbers put up by Mehmet Okur?

    Year Team MPG PPG RPG
    2002-03 DET 19.0 6.9 4.7
    2003-04 DET 22.3 9.6 5.9
    2004-05 UTA 28.1 12.9 7.5
    2005-06 UTA 35.9 18.0 9.1
    2006-07 UTA 33.9 18.2 7.4

    Harrison's stats
    Year Team MPG PPG RPG
    04-05 IND 17.7 6.1 3.1
    05-06 IND 15.4 5.7 3.8
    06-07 IND 7.1 2.6 1.8
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    It's not that. Fans don't turn a franchise around. But I think it would be beneficial if the attitude/spirit surrounding the franchise was "championships or bust" (so to speak). I think it has to be not just the fans, but the fans and the management, the coaches, and the players. I only sense it from some of the players (not so much right now, but previously JO would make that clear), but not anyone else in the franchise. I think if we as fans start to carry that attitude around more that it might start to have an effect on the mindset of everyone involved with the team, if even a little.
    That's a fair point.

    There's obviously a different mentality with the Colts. For the Colts since 2003, the mentality amongst the fanbase has been "Championship or Bust". But the Pacers fanbase as a whole over the past few years has accepted upper mediocrity, the Colts has been held to an extremely high standard, and finally that standard was rewarded.

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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    That's not true. When the Pacers went to finals Bird said there wouldn't be a parade because they didn't win it all.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Hicks, I think that you are wrong here. That attitude leads to a lot of disappointment. I think that you only think this because one of your teams won this year. Most of my main teams (Bills, Sabres and Pacers) have never won, and if I took that all or nothing attitude I would just stop watching sports. It probably seems to you that the team and fans willed the Colts to victory, but the Colts were partially lucky to win it this year. There were so many things that could have gone the other way in the Baltimore and New England game, and to have them all go the Colts way is part skill and part luck. So if they don't catch some of those bounces, then the year would have been a failure? Just getting to watch Payton Manning play on your team is reason enough to consider the year a success IMO (I tried to become a Colts fan, but I felt like a bandwagon fan and a traitor to my birth city and gave it up).

    But my main point is that having that attitude leads to disappointment. I am a Yankee fan, and let me tell you that I derive little or no pleasure for watching baseball. If they win, there were expected to, and if they lose they failed. Laker fans have an all or nothing attitude towards the game and they seem to not enjoy the beauty of the sport. I can appreciate basketball and hockey on the level of individual plays, and this can get you through some bad years.

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    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    I admit I've become less and less enthusiastic each year because of my mindset. I think what I want from my sports life is 1 championship and from there I'll just do my best to enjoy anything there is to enjoy. But I wanta to be able to says "NBA Champion Indiana Pacers" before I die.

    I have that with the Colts, and that's great. Unfortunately, they're easily my 2nd favorite.

  17. #42

    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Last night's game boiled down to two things: Adjustments and EFFORT! Obviously, more of the later is needed than the later.

    I watched the game, but to my dismay I paid closer attetion to what the Pacers did on the floor rather than who the five players were on the floor at any given time. So, could someone tell me if Williams, Granger and JO were ever out there at the same time? If so, it makes me wonder why RC didn't also go w/Harrison at Center? I'm convinced that had we gone with a bigger, more defensive oriented front court we might have won this game going away.

    I did notice that we were able to slow the new K-Mart down (I guess Kenyon Martin is now known as "Big-K" ) by putting a bigger body on him, i.e., Williams. Martin couldn't shoot over him nor Granger, but he ate both Tinsley and Army's lunch! The biggest problem there was our Guards simply giving too much ground. Again, they were more concerned w/dribble penetration than their man shooting from the field. Hence, Bibby got off 2-3 shots he shouldn't have/wouldn't have dared if he were guarded alittle tighter.

    Good 2nd-half by my boyz...just wish they'd have given that same effort from the 2nd qtr on...

  18. #43

    Default Re: Post game thread - Kings vs Pacers - well that was much better

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    It's not that. Fans don't turn a franchise around. But I think it would be beneficial if the attitude/spirit surrounding the franchise was "championships or bust" (so to speak). I think it has to be not just the fans, but the fans and the management, the coaches, and the players. I only sense it from some of the players (not so much right now, but previously JO would make that clear), but not anyone else in the franchise. I think if we as fans start to carry that attitude around more that it might start to have an effect on the mindset of everyone involved with the team, if even a little.
    I'd agree w/you except fans will only cheer for their team if they honestly believe there is something to cheer about. And right now, the Pacers aren't giving me a reason to jump up and go, "Rah-Rah, 6 Boom-Bah!"

    Winning cures alot of things, but even a losing team will still get fan support if the team shows effort and a winning attitude most nights. What I've seen from this team lately is a team playing not to lose rather than a team playing to win! It's like once they get down by +10 (at the half), they all but cave instead of turning up the pressure and doing whatever it takes to chip away at that lead and steal the win.

    Granted, it's very difficult to come from a double-digit deficit, but teams have done it before including this one! As long as time remains on the clock and you have the desire to win, anything is possible. The Pacers (and coach) need to play smarter basketball, not harder (and here I'm referring to falling so far behind and having to claw their way back, not overall effort; that should be there every time they step onto the floor!).

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