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Thread: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Before I get to my main point let say a few things that this thread is not. This is not a bash Rick Carlisle thread, this is not "I have some inside information" thread. This is not a thread where I'm going discuss whether it should happen or not. Trust me I don't want to make this thread, but I do feel strongly about this. And for some of you newbies, it isn't often that I start threads like this.

    I've been a Pacers fan since the late 70's, I've been following the NBA since that same time also. I've seen a lot of teams fire coaches I've seen what teams generally play like right before a coach is fired - and folks the way the Pacers have been playing the last 4 or 5 games looks that way to me. Teams start losing by 20 points per game. Players look like they don't know what is wrong or how to solve the problems. The reasons for losing is something different every game, one game it's offense, the next it is defense and the next it is rebounding. The fight from the players just doesn't seem like it is there.

    You all know what I'm leading up to, so I'm just going to say it - My instincts tell me, my gut tells me that Rick is very close to being replaced on an interim basis by Johnny Davis. Don't worry JD won't be the coach next season. Let me reiterate, I have no inside information, zero, nada. But if TPTB really want to make the playoffs this season it appears to me a coaching change is needed. The players have stopped responding to Rick - he's lost the team.

    When might it happen? After the Jazz game the Pacers don't play Thursday or Friday, if it is going to happen that is the time.

    If JD does replace Rick, there will be a honeymoon period. Johnny Davis will immedietely "open up the offense" the players will feel free again - this will last about 4 or 5 games and then we'll see what we have.

    Let me anticipate some questions that might come up.

    1) DW and LB will never fire Rick especially during the season. Yes they will, if they truly believe Rick has lost the team and that he cannot get them back. Obviously I don't know if they are convinced of it yet.

    2) Why can't Rick get it turned around, he's obviously a much better coach than JD. Yes he is, but at this point it doesn't matter, I fear things are too far gone.

    3) UB, won't you feel foolish if the Pacers beat the Kings, play well but lose to the Jazz and then begin to win their fair share of games the rest of this month. I won't feel foolish, in fact I pray the Pacers do turn it around with Rick as their coach.

    4) UB, aren't you just contributing to the knee-jerk anti Rick Carlisle stuff that has taken over Pacers Digest. I don't think I am, in fact there isn't one sentence in this post that bashes Rick Carlisle. There is no doubt in my mind that Rick is the second best head coach the NBA Pacers have ever had - second only to Hall of Famer Larry Brown.

    5) UB, why did you decide to post this now - what is the purpose of it. Because I feel (and yes I freely admit it is just a feeling) a coaching change might be imminent. As I stated earlier, I don't believe I'm just throwing something out there on a whim. I've been following the NBA a lot of years and the signs I feel are on the wall.

    So we'll see, I've been wrong many times before and will be wrong many times in the future and this might be one of those times.

    Edit: I do have one request. Well actually two. 1) Please don't turn this thread into an excuse to bash Rick Carlisle (there are plenty of current and very active threads in which you can do that) 2) Please don't turn this into a "I'm so excited Rick is gone thread"

  2. #2
    Member The Hustler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Not that you need to hear it from me but good post! ...

    I agree with almost everything said .... its a strange place to be in ... the thing that i agree most strongly with is the idea we dont know where its going wrong ...

    its not like we cant score or cant stop the other team from scoring or need rebounding ... every game we suffer in a different area .... this makes it very hard to blame one person (i dont like the word blame there but i cant think of a better one) ... Its hard to pinpoint what needs to change yet its obvious something does need to change! ..,

    unfotunatly the most obvious common factor is Rick ... yet i fully believe it isnt Ricks fault .... All in all the options seem low .... with no trade possibilities the only option in terms of changing personel significantly is Rick!
    'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.'
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    So far larry has defined his tenure here by keeping Rick at all costs so he can go too. There are many mistakes made by many people so you are correct that RC shouldn't shoulder all the blame for this but new blood will change the culture a bit. Rick is a talented guy who is coaching the wrong team. I actually see him as a very successful college coach if he doesn't have to deal with all the distractions this team generated.

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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    UB I completely agree.

    I would even agree that Rick is the 2nd best coach the Pacers have ever had. Yes I want him gone and have wanted him gone for a long time. Its not that I hate Rick he did a great job as the real coach durring the 98-00 run. The main thing Larry contributed then was limiting the numer of plays he let Rick call (and clearly that was a huge contribution)

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    I want to say somehting else very quickly.

    During Rick's radio show maybe 3 weeks ago, Rick made an interesting point. (I forget the exact quote) But Rick said that this team since the trade really lacks emotion, they are a very, very quiet team, the players are quiet. mark Boyle then chimed in to say that this is the quietest Pacers team he's been around and Mark has been here - 20 years now. They also said it isn't a bad thing and that the new guys bring a good level of professionism and maturity. But I agree with that this team doesn't have much fire - so the team needs to be coached by someone who does. When Rick took over in 2004 he was the perfect type of coach for that very combustible team, but for this team he probably isn't.

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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Funy, I was thinking the same thing last nite...seems the Pacers have tuned out Rick like they did Larry Brown...One other possibility is for Bird to take over as coach for the rest of the year. Again I like RC as a coach and feel that he rates as one of the top 4 coaches in Pacer history, with Slick (ABA & NBA), Brown and Bird.

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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Well, here's my question. If Rick is fired, how are the Simons going to react? Six months ago Donnie and/or Larry convinced them they needed to shell out to keep Rick, and they gave him a fancy new title to boot. I know the Simons are all gung ho about Donnie, but this would seem to me to be yet another black eye for TPTB.
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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Bird will not replace Rick as the coach, you can take that to the bank.

    Rick was the real coach Birds job was as a figurehead and to limit Ricks play calling durring the 09-00 run.

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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    UB you're saying all the things I've been trying to say, but you're using the correct wording. I'm hoping that somehow Rick can remain with the franchise (as the EVPOBO) because I think he'd be very useful in that position, but if this team continues it's skid, I don't think that'll be possible.

    I was hoping for Ricks tenure to end in the offseason, but if the team continues like this there needs to be a change before the offseason. The only change that can be is a coaching change.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    If I were coach going into the next game.... I would look all the starters right in the eye tell them they were nothing but a bunch of candy asses. That if they were going to play like --it that they were going to play all 48 minutes and embarrass themselves right there on the court. The next game I would play the 5 bench guys that play the most and let them play 48 minutes and embarrass themselves. As I walk away (if I'm still alive) I would yell F-Y you bunch of candy asses.

    (I may get banned for this post, but hey I've reached the point of total pissedofffrustration)
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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by aceace View Post
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    If I were coach going into the next game.... I would look all the starters right in the eye tell them they were nothing but a bunch of candy asses. That if they were going to play like --it that they were going to play all 48 minutes and embarrass themselves right there on the court. The next game I would play the 5 bench guys that play the most and let them play 48 minutes and embarrass themselves. As I walk away (if I'm still alive) I would yell F-Y you bunch of candy asses.
    A coach kicking his team while they're down wont accomplish anything.

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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Before I get to my main point let say a few things that this thread is not. This is not a bash Rick Carlisle thread, this is not "I have some inside information" thread. This is not a thread where I'm going discuss whether it should happen or not. Trust me I don't want to make this thread, but I do feel strongly about this. And for some of you newbies, it isn't often that I start threads like this.

    I've been a Pacers fan since the late 70's, I've been following the NBA since that same time also. I've seen a lot of teams fire coaches I've seen what teams generally play like right before a coach is fired - and folks the way the Pacers have been playing the last 4 or 5 games looks that way to me. Teams start losing by 20 points per game. Players look like they don't know what is wrong or how to solve the problems. The reasons for losing is something different every game, one game it's offense, the next it is defense and the next it is rebounding. The fight from the players just doesn't seem like it is there.

    You all know what I'm leading up to, so I'm just going to say it - My instincts tell me, my gut tells me that Rick is very close to being replaced on an interim basis by Johnny Davis. Don't worry JD won't be the coach next season. Let me reiterate, I have no inside information, zero, nada. But if TPTB really want to make the playoffs this season it appears to me a coaching change is needed. The players have stopped responding to Rick - he's lost the team.

    When might it happen? After the Jazz game the Pacers don't play Thursday or Friday, if it is going to happen that is the time.

    If JD does replace Rick, there will be a honeymoon period. Johnny Davis will immedietely "open up the offense" the players will feel free again - this will last about 4 or 5 games and then we'll see what we have.

    Let me anticipate some questions that might come up.

    1) DW and LB will never fire Rick especially during the season. Yes they will, if they truly believe Rick has lost the team and that he cannot get them back. Obviously I don't know if they are convinced of it yet.

    2) Why can't Rick get it turned around, he's obviously a much better coach than JD. Yes he is, but at this point it doesn't matter, I fear things are too far gone.

    3) UB, won't you feel foolish if the Pacers beat the Kings, play well but lose to the Jazz and then begin to win their fair share of games the rest of this month. I won't feel foolish, in fact I pray the Pacers do turn it around with Rick as their coach.

    4) UB, aren't you just contributing to the knee-jerk anti Rick Carlisle stuff that has taken over Pacers Digest. I don't think I am, in fact there isn't one sentence in this post that bashes Rick Carlisle. There is no doubt in my mind that Rick is the second best head coach the NBA Pacers have ever had - second only to Hall of Famer Larry Brown.

    5) UB, why did you decide to post this now - what is the purpose of it. Because I feel (and yes I freely admit it is just a feeling) a coaching change might be imminent. As I stated earlier, I don't believe I'm just throwing something out there on a whim. I've been following the NBA a lot of years and the signs I feel are on the wall.

    So we'll see, I've been wrong many times before and will be wrong many times in the future and this might be one of those times.

    Edit: I do have one request. Well actually two. 1) Please don't turn this thread into an excuse to bash Rick Carlisle (there are plenty of current and very active threads in which you can do that) 2) Please don't turn this into a "I'm so excited Rick is gone thread"
    I have been a Pacer fan since the late sixties, what I see here is a collection of players thrown together by the fans.

    The fans wanted Artest traded, he was traded and that started the sprial, and no the sprial did not begin with the Brawl, it began with Larry Bird opening his mouth to the Sacramento Bee and mentioning trying to trade for Peja before the season began...the old loose lips sink ships adage applies here.

    The fans wanted Jackson & Tinsley traded...well Jackson is gone, but at what expense?

    Right after the brawl Rick took what was left of the bench and played some pretty good ball, not great, but better than expected. This was without Jermaine, Artes and Jackson.

    Since Reggie retired and the keys to the car were handed over to Jermaine this team has been nothing short of a multi car accident.

    The only duty of the head coach of ANY professional team is to have a game plan in place that you believe your team can execute. This is basketball not brain surgury. You dribble, jump, pass and shoot and at the end the team with the most points wins.

    I came on the digest right after the home game against Phoenix and stated I believed the loss was in part to Jermaine...I still believe that. I again give the reason as he makes no one better that he plays with. Unlike Artest who made Jermaine and Tinsley much better players. Sadley there is no player with the talent of Ron Artest hiding at the end of the bench.

    The first two games of this road trip have been horrid, and ALL of you Jermaine supporters, who said how he dominated against Phoenix, where has his Dominance disapeared to?

    Friday night vs Phoenix.....
    8-18 from the floor, no free throws, 7 rebounds in 29 minutes
    Saturday Night vs the freakin Clips......
    3-13 from the floor,3 for 5 free throws,4 rebounds in 29 minutes

    Do any of you Pacer fans feel like you got your 215 thousand dollars for Jermaines game last night, beause over the course of an 84 game season at the 18 mill that he's pulling down this year, thats a very close estimate of a game check that he gets. SO lets make that a half a million for the last two games.

    Like it or not, and this goes to all on this digest, Jermaine is the FRANCHISE player, and with that goes all the responsibility. When he agreed and signed the contract he knew it and the Pacers thought that Jermaine would be the cornerstone of the franchise.

    Bottom line is Jermaine isn't a franchise player, he can't handle the responsibility and he only produces numbers every once in a while. Hes a very good player thats been an All star only becasue there are no decent big men in the east. My god Chris Bosh deservedly started over J.O. in the idiodic all star "game".

    Yet we get on Rick Carsile about how hes lost this team. How about the team making an 8 player trade in mid season, how about not having a starting pont guard that doesn't know how to lead. How about getting two contracts that severly hamper any trade possibilities next year?

    All because the FANS call for it.. This is why I laugh when I see the posts saying to fire Carlise and rarely comment. Rick will be here for a long time, longer than O'Neal, longer than Tinsley and longer then Donnie Walsh. Larry is only hanging around becasue the Simons, when they are ready to let it go, will give Larry the first opportunity to purchase the Pacer franchise. Thats why Larry is even involved with the team. Rebuffed by his beloved Celtics and thrown under the bus for the Charlotte franchise, the Pacers are the only other team that the CELTIC legend could even have hopes of being an owner of.

    Bottom line:

    Players play and coaches coach. Has it even looked close to the players playing?

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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    I sure hope you are right UB, we need a new coach in the worst way.

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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Coaches also need to motivate, whether that be through no PT or kicking some butt. Seems Detroit had it right when they replaced RC with Larry Brown and Bird had it right when he stated that an NBA coach gets about 3 years before players begin to tune him out.
    I'll repeat it:A new coach right now would at least get some fools motivated enough to earn that contract. That debacle last night is unacceptable and I'm sure LB, RC and DW would say the same.

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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    I don't see anything wrong with a coach calling his players out - if nothing else just to **** them off and bring out some fire. Speaking of fire, that was one of the complaints in the past about the Colts. It was one of the complaints against Tom Landry's Cowboys. They didn't have that fire. But guess what, they both won Super Bowl titles.

    Then again, how many coaches with fire have been canned in the past year. Didn't help Parcells much.

    I would be against replacing Rick. To me it would be just another one of those moves to buy time. First, the new players coming in the "restructuring" of the team. Then, the trade. Now, "well let's see how they do with another coach". I'm in the minority but I don't see anything wrong with Rick. What I have seen is a lot wrong with the players.

    In my opinion, if you have players who tune out a coach they need to grow up and be professional. And if they can't be - ship 'em out. Hey, I don't like a lot of things my boss does - but guess who gets moved - not HIM. Rick's history here, under extremely trying conditions, has shown me enough to want to keep him.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSMASH View Post
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    I have been a Pacer fan since the late sixties, what I see here is a collection of players thrown together by the fans.

    The fans wanted Artest traded, he was traded and that started the sprial, and no the sprial did not begin with the Brawl, it began with Larry Bird opening his mouth to the Sacramento Bee and mentioning trying to trade for Peja before the season began...the old loose lips sink ships adage applies here.

    The fans wanted Jackson & Tinsley traded...well Jackson is gone, but at what expense?

    Right after the brawl Rick took what was left of the bench and played some pretty good ball, not great, but better than expected. This was without Jermaine, Artes and Jackson.

    Since Reggie retired and the keys to the car were handed over to Jermaine this team has been nothing short of a multi car accident.

    The only duty of the head coach of ANY professional team is to have a game plan in place that you believe your team can execute. This is basketball not brain surgury. You dribble, jump, pass and shoot and at the end the team with the most points wins.

    I came on the digest right after the home game against Phoenix and stated I believed the loss was in part to Jermaine...I still believe that. I again give the reason as he makes no one better that he plays with. Unlike Artest who made Jermaine and Tinsley much better players. Sadley there is no player with the talent of Ron Artest hiding at the end of the bench.

    The first two games of this road trip have been horrid, and ALL of you Jermaine supporters, who said how he dominated against Phoenix, where has his Dominance disapeared to?

    Friday night vs Phoenix.....
    8-18 from the floor, no free throws, 7 rebounds in 29 minutes
    Saturday Night vs the freakin Clips......
    3-13 from the floor,3 for 5 free throws,4 rebounds in 29 minutes

    Do any of you Pacer fans feel like you got your 215 thousand dollars for Jermaines game last night, beause over the course of an 84 game season at the 18 mill that he's pulling down this year, thats a very close estimate of a game check that he gets. SO lets make that a half a million for the last two games.

    Like it or not, and this goes to all on this digest, Jermaine is the FRANCHISE player, and with that goes all the responsibility. When he agreed and signed the contract he knew it and the Pacers thought that Jermaine would be the cornerstone of the franchise.

    Bottom line is Jermaine isn't a franchise player, he can't handle the responsibility and he only produces numbers every once in a while. Hes a very good player thats been an All star only becasue there are no decent big men in the east. My god Chris Bosh deservedly started over J.O. in the idiodic all star "game".

    Yet we get on Rick Carsile about how hes lost this team. How about the team making an 8 player trade in mid season, how about not having a starting pont guard that doesn't know how to lead. How about getting two contracts that severly hamper any trade possibilities next year?

    All because the FANS call for it.. This is why I laugh when I see the posts saying to fire Carlise and rarely comment. Rick will be here for a long time, longer than O'Neal, longer than Tinsley and longer then Donnie Walsh. Larry is only hanging around becasue the Simons, when they are ready to let it go, will give Larry the first opportunity to purchase the Pacer franchise. Thats why Larry is even involved with the team. Rebuffed by his beloved Celtics and thrown under the bus for the Charlotte franchise, the Pacers are the only other team that the CELTIC legend could even have hopes of being an owner of.

    Bottom line:

    Players play and coaches coach. Has it even looked close to the players playing?
    Is it Jermaine's fault that he isn't meant to be a franchise player? Is it the players fault that Bird told the Sac Bee that he tried to trade for Peja? Is it the fans fault that Artest went on local tv and demanded a trade? Were we supposed to keep him after that or something? The reason why Carlisle needs to be replaced as coach and moved to the front office (I don't agree with firing him) is because this team isn't responding to his coaching. You can change the players as much as you want but eventually the coach has to be looked at. As for the bolded stats for Jermaines last two games, is that all you have on him?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    This season is probably lost. Let's not do anything stupid between now and when we have a chance to change the face of the team in June.

    A new coach right now might get a few more wins, but where does that get us? A few games closer to making the playoffs? A first round loss in the playoffs?

    Face the facts: This team can't win diddly in the playoffs; we don't have the guards who can get the job done on either end of the court.

    A good basketball team surely needs at least one good guard who can defend and one who can shoot the rock. We have neither.

    I will only be happy when the Simon Brothers get the message that the current situation is not repairable without getting some speed, defense, and, hopefully, better shooting at the guard spots. Even if it takes trading JO or Danny Granger (preferably Danny Granger because bigs with all-around skills are hardest to replace) to help find a couple of starting guards who can change the way we play, then I say do it. The coaching change doesn't matter much, if this organization doesn't make job one the changing of the guard, so to speak.

  18. #18
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Smash; Your hatred or jealousy for JO makes you say silly things.

    Nobody in the NBA is saying anything other then JO is more then worthy of being a franchise player.

    As for one little line in your premise about Bird taking over the Pacers, that touches my thoughts, I have been saying that from the day he came in and that brings me to what UB is saying;

    Bringing RC to the office and J. Davis to the HC position is going to be a disaster, unless his ideas are totally different from what he has shown till now, the few games he had to take over, IMO he made a mess of.

    Let's go a bit higher in the ranks, let's facea few "errors in judgement" we've "gladly" overlooked for several reasons and to each his own, but when LB came in he made the #1 error any manager can make, (also one he can only make under certqain circumstances) and that is bring his best friend in.

    That has put the Pacers in the position they are in now.

    Rick is a good coach, certainly, but this is at least the 2ndseason he has lost the players, all except JO, who in his loyalty will not let the coach fall, he gave his word 4 years ago and is sticking with it.

    But how much longer?

    Something needs to be done, I just don't see JD the alternative we need, perhaps getting JvG in for a few months, who knows, but not JD.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthman View Post
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    This season is probably lost. Let's not do anything stupid between now and when we have a chance to change the face of the team in June.

    A new coach right now might get a few more wins, but where does that get us? A few games closer to making the playoffs? A first round loss in the playoffs?

    Face the facts: This team can't win diddly in the playoffs; we don't have the guards who can get the job done on either end of the court.

    A good basketball team surely needs at least one good guard who can defend and one who can shoot the rock. We have neither.

    I will only be happy when the Simon Brothers get the message that the current situation is not repairable without getting some speed, defense, and, hopefully, better shooting at the guard spots. Even if it takes trading JO or Danny Granger (preferably Danny Granger because bigs with all-around skills are hardest to replace) to help find a couple of starting guards who can change the way we play, then I say do it. The coaching change doesn't matter much, if this organization doesn't make job one the changing of the guard, so to speak.


    Yes getting a guard as you describe is a must. However, things have unraveled so quickly, the body language of the players is so bad, and the confidence and perserverrance of the players right now is so low, that I fear they may lose 22 of their last 24 games - that is how bad I think it is right now. Reading the comments from Eddie Johnson, comments he made during the Suns game was very telling. The quotes were in the print edition of the Star this morning. Comments about how the Pacers are playing like they expect to lose and comments about how bad the Pacers defense is effort wise.

    A coaching change doesn't solve the underlying problems with the roster - but it at least will improve the effort and togetherness of the players.
    The ship be sinking

  20. #20

    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    As coach I would put about 6 big screen TVs in the practice gym and play the clippers game over and over for the rest of the season. I may die in that gym but at least I wouldn't have to watch this team anymore.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Smash; Your hatred or jealousy for JO makes you say silly things.

    Nobody in the NBA is saying anything other then JO is more then worthy of being a franchise player.
    I don't think Smash is promoting a hatred for JO. He's simply saying that JO is not well-suited for the role of having the team revolve around regardless if his contract says otherwise.

    That's why (IMHO) chemistry keeps falling apart because Carlisle keeps using Jermaine O Neal like he is Shaquille O Neal on offense. It creates a vacuum (when those expectations aren't met) and that's why this team can go nowhere until that situation is rectified.

    So is that Carlisle's fault or is it JO's?

    And to get back on track, is it coming to a point that it doesn't matter? What I mean is this (there are two wildcards in all of this as I see it):

    #1 I've stated for years that Walsh puts too much emphassis on the regular season and making the playoffs. So whether the problem is JO refusing to play any other role or Carlisle using him like a safety blanket, if things are out of control and the playoffs in jeopardy, would Walsh make a coaching change to try and save the playoffs?

    #2 For the sake of argument let's just say the problem is not Carlisle but JO refusing to play another role (humor me and assume for discussion that Carlisle and TPTB had other plans for him and the team and JO truly derailed those at 8 games into the season). Even if that is true, if Carlisle so loses the team here in the stretch run, can he be expected to not totally poison the water for himself next season (even if we make wholesale changes)?

    I suppose you could look at the main issue of point number 2 from several angles because the gist of the question is, whether things are Carlisle's fault or not at this point, if the situation spirals out of control would that poison the water too much for his return next season? In that case you could blame Tinsley, JO, the complimentary players, the lack of a spot up 3 shooter, individually, collectively, etc but no matter who you blame has TPTB tied Carlisle to a sinking ship that will sink his ability to ever coach this team again?


    --

    I still say management is to blame and I still don't understand why Bird alone manages to stay in some people's crosshairs. If Walsh is blameless then he must now be worthless to the organization because that would mean he is simply acting to rubber stamp Bird's moves. He's not acting as a check and balance to Bird's whims. And we're still assuming Bird has any real power at all. OTOH, if Walsh is acting as a check and balance to Bird's desires then that means he's just as guilty as Bird because he's signing off on some bad moves.

    I just don't get how Walsh doesn't get any of the blame one way or the other. Obviously he must be made of Teflon because nothing is sticking. If it's all Bird's fault, what are the Simon's even paying Walsh for?

    The two-headed monster approach to team-building may be at play. IMHO we need to clear out at least one of those two and let the other guy have a clean slate to build the team upon without second guessing and foot dragging from the partner.

    For those on the inside the question about which one of the two headed monster is the problem should be easy to answer. It's all speculation at this point from the outside looking in tho. Except I don't think it's a stretch to say that a two headed monster managing the team is too much.

    But IF Bird is the problem, then someone better help us because Walsh's system is not one that pays quick dividends and his patience with players and coaches, and knack for overpaying, means if he picks a Bender and a Isiah Thomas in the horse race over a Reggie Miller and a Larry Brown, we could be in for a long drought.

    Really, if Carlisle does need to be fired how does that speak to management giving him an extension AND brass plaque for his desk just this past offseason?

    Sort out management, and the coaching and player issues will start to be sorted out too.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  22. #22

    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I want to say somehting else very quickly.

    During Rick's radio show maybe 3 weeks ago, Rick made an interesting point. (I forget the exact quote) But Rick said that this team since the trade really lacks emotion, they are a very, very quiet team, the players are quiet. mark Boyle then chimed in to say that this is the quietest Pacers team he's been around and Mark has been here - 20 years now. They also said it isn't a bad thing and that the new guys bring a good level of professionism and maturity. But I agree with that this team doesn't have much fire - so the team needs to be coached by someone who does. When Rick took over in 2004 he was the perfect type of coach for that very combustible team, but for this team he probably isn't.
    Do you think that Rick has much fire. The only time he is excited is when there is a bad call. He never talks to his players coming in or going out of the game to say good job or you need to do this. He does not appear to be a very emotional individual but rather stoic. His post game press conference responses are boring.

  23. #23
    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    Rick is Rick. He has a reserved personality, but the guy does not lack fire.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
    NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

  24. #24
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    I knew you'd come around.

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=20486

    You're only 327 days late.

    But you did say this last April, so you get credit for sticking with your timeline:

    Jay, do you really believe this or are you just trying to start a discussion.

    If this were late February or early March, I would agree with you. But with 6 games left, no. It would give the franchise a bad name. Believe me Bird can evaluate the team well enough as it is
    Rick lost the "old" Pacers - the team from a year ago. And he never regained the "new" Pacers at the beginning of this season. It is because of Rick's total lack of social skills that he's not able to lead the team from the HC position? Is it because management didn't move certain troublemakers last summer which undermined Rick's ability to lead the team? Is it because management still didn't move all the allege "troublemakes" prior to the trade deadline?

    Its probably some combination of the three. But Rick has been losing this team since the 2004 playoffs, and that's the biggest factor. Granted, a large portion of that was because no coach on the planet can keep b!-p0l@r players in focus, but even Al Harrington seems to be able to get along with every one of his coaches except one - Carlisle.

    Rick is a x's and o's genious, and he's great with strategy. But he needs to be a computer programmer or something where he doesn't have to deal with real, live human beings.

    I'm guessing the players all cut out Dilbert cartoons and pass them around, pointing out that Rick is like the pointy-hair boss - clueless when it comes to dealing with people.

    I still think Bird should take over, not Johnny Davis. Of all the seasons to lose Rick midseason, the team is not well-equipped for such a move. The last time we had a coaching change mid-season, Bo Hill was waiting in the wings and this is a situation that's perfect for the type of coach that Bo is - a short-term turnaround guy because the players will rally around him. And Dick Versace was probably very comparable to Rick as a coach, except that Rick has had more talent to work with in his first several seasons of coaching so he'll get another chance somewhere else...
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #25
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Johnny Davis might be warming up in the bullpen

    1. Rick does not lack fire, Rick is a Psychology major, they are tought to deal with things "non-confrontational" and I am sure that plays a huge role here.

    Bball, with the best will in the world I can not humour your theory here, it uses simply to many "if".

    Leaving totally aside that as a coach and VP of bball operations he has no obligations to "humour" JO, or please or placate him, in fact he has the power to have him traded for the deadline and yes I am sure that a KG for JO swap was available.

    There are a few things I did no list, because I assume them common knowledge, being everything that happened since his (RC) arrival and what happened in Det.

    As far as LB goes, I think you did not hear or watch the interviews on various websites as pacers.com and indystar, because if you did then you would have heard quite clearly that LB was responsible for all the signings the past 2/3 years and that DW only stepped in with the trades, but did those in agreement with LB.

    So yes, go back to LB; act1 he hires his friend and former employee to coach the team. He then continues to add players to the frail that are simply "not that good" He then chooses to support RA yet publicly also admits the tried to trade him, next bomb.
    He wants to keep Peja, next failure, to pricey and DW steps in with Simons' help, gets an excemption and it is used.

    Let's not fool each other, he has a major (the) hand in all what happened.

    Now look at JO, who has/takes less shots "after" game 8 then before, so it was not about the #of shots.
    That same JO that leads the league in blocked shots and likely also in the "charges taken" department, who focusses on Def and plays within the system on Off.

    Now take all the players that left the past 3 years, and digest their comments; not one said he was sorry to leave the coach behind.
    In fact all of them said it was a "drag" to play for coach.

    Now combine all that and put a little side of how NY is doing (and the talent picked for them by IT) and then tell me where we stand. (and I know that we have a better record atm)

    Now when the soup is done, look into it and tell me whether it was JO who killed this franchise over the past 3 odd years or whether it was the LB-RC combination.

    You can not argue what is there, and these are facts, not assumptions.

    Does it make RC a bad coach>? no

    And as a final question, what team keeps the coach, gives him an extension while at the same time concluding that he lost the team that season?
    Are we really surprised he lost it again?
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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