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Thread: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    This subject has been beaten into the ground so many times.

    Fundamentals are NOT lacking any more in the NBA than in the NCAA. Look at FT% of pro players vs. NCAA. I'm trying to find the article that read the "NCAA players are better at fundamentals" myth the riot act, so give me some time.

    They are not better at the game. Never have been, never will be.

    There are many out there that consider the NBA age rule nothing more than indentured servitude. But I'll admit that it is not nearly as bad as the NFL/NCAA Football system.

    What does NCAA ball have over the pros? The game environment is much more fun for spectators. I prefer NCAA cheerleeding teams over NBA strippers - I mean - "dancers". They play live music instead of DJ bull****. They don't need an MC. They don't need silly contests or annoying sound affects. They don't play stupid sound affects during game play.

    NBA franchises everywhere need to try and figure out why they have a less enjoyable experience yet typically charge more money.

    I would prefer everything the NCAA does off the court, but the gameplay at the NBA level is a zillion times (to be scientific ) superior.

    Off to find the stat book ...

    That is an excellent post, and I agree 110% (just for you Shade)

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Team work=fundamentals. The NBA is hardly the poster child for teamwork.

    Also, you can have horrible shooting fundamentals, and still hit a FT. No, I'm not trying to say that college players are better shooters fundamentally, but what I am saying is that statistics can't be used to show which level is fundamentally better.

    You can offer ft%, shooting%, TOs, assists, any stat you want and it won't change my opinion.

    Please show me where I said they were better at the game? You'll fail to find it. I would much rather watch college players, because they play the game in a manner in which it should be played. I get tired of watching all the Starbury's and Tinsley's do their Rucker Park act. It just makes me want to get sick.

    That's all I'm going to say on the subject.
    Well, I just don't know how you can claim that NCAA teams play better as teams.

    Even the legendary offenses of Indiana, Duke, UCLA, UConn and Kentucky had individuals who could take over a game.

    Basketball is a combination of teamwork and individual excellence at all levels. The myth that teamwork does not exist in the NBA was created by the marketing of individuals like Jordan and Magic.

    The fact that Peyton Manning scores more points and gets more face time in the press does not make people think that the colts do not play as a team. But if an NBA star is in the spotlight he's instantly branded as selfish. I don't think that's fair to the sport.

    Just my opinion also.
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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    OK - I'm 80% sure that the passage I'm looking for was either written by John Feinstein in the book "Let Me Tell You a Story" or by L. Jon Wertheim in the book "Transition Game - How Hoosiers Went Hip-Hop".

    It was called "old white guy syndrome" and it showed how - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that both the attitude that the NBA was better in the "old days" and the attitude that NCAA bball is a more "pure" form of the sport compared to NBA ball are not founded in truth.

    The other 20% of me thinks I read the article online, perhaps in ESPN Insider.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    Just look at the Pacers last few top 15 picks...
    okay lets... i'll focus on players back to dale davis that gives us about 15 years to examine

    Fred Jones (#15): Still in the league. The only two notable people he was picked in front of were Tayshaun Prince (#23) and Carlos Boozer (#35) but Boozer was essentially passed over by most. Other than missing the boat on those two, I'm not sure how Fred was a terrible choice. The Cavs selected Dajuan Wagner 30 picks ahead of Boozer so everybody missed the boat on Boozer. anyway he is still playing so he wasn't terrible and we never overpaid him.

    Austin Croshere (#12): who that is still playing in the league would you rather have? stephen jackson? anthony johnson? kelvin cato? anderson? this pick makes perfect sense. and despite the massive contract (which you can't blame on him, he earned a contract extension and a raise, blame TPTB for the amount of the raise) how has croshere been a bust?

    Erick Dampier (#10): This was probably a bad draft pick, although he's still a starter in the league. What was bad about it was that we didn't hang on to him, had we kept him it might not be so bad. We missed Kobe, Nash, Peja and Jermaine in the 1st round. JO didn't blossom until he got to the Pacers, Peja would have been a better draft choice because at the time we had MJax, Workman, Hoiberg... we already had Reggie, Rose and McKey around the SF and SG spots...

    Eric Piatkowski (#18): does he count since we traded him away and didn't play for indiana? if so, he is still in the league and while he's not playing in phoenix (lets face it no one besides the top 7 play any significant minutes) he's had a decent career.

    Scott Haskin (#14): a genuine bust.

    Malik Sealy (#10): probably would still be playing today.

    Dale Davis (#13): is this considered a bust? i would hope not.

    There was a time when the Pacers selected well with high draft picks. The trend shows they've not done so well as of late.
    just because we haven't drafted a genuine superstar doesn't mean this team hasn't drafted well. you have to look at the needs of the team and the players taken later. gilbert arenas was selected in the 2nd round so was boozer, just because hindsight helps now doesn't mean they were even close to obvious choices on draft night.
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    We should've kept certain players that we moved this past year. We needed to get rid of Jack and Artest, and probably Tins. One accomplishment; we gpt rid of RonRon but recieved nothing, nothing really. Second, we got rid of Jack, I liked Jack but it was his choice to get in off-court troubles. We shouldn't have let go of Freddy. He provides energy that could get us going, and the fans pumped after a monster dunk. I'm not really surprised that we are having such a bad year, I expect big changes during off-season and I can't wait to start on a new slate, hopefully.
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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    OK - I'm 80% sure that the passage I'm looking for was either written by John Feinstein in the book "Let Me Tell You a Story" or by L. Jon Wertheim in the book "Transition Game - How Hoosiers Went Hip-Hop".

    It was called "old white guy syndrome" and it showed how - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that both the attitude that the NBA was better in the "old days" and the attitude that NCAA bball is a more "pure" form of the sport compared to NBA ball are not founded in truth.

    The other 20% of me thinks I read the article online, perhaps in ESPN Insider.
    Well considering that I'm only 20years old, I doubt I fall into the category of an "old white guy."

    I just don't know how you can say that the NBA isn't a "me" first league when you have players tell management it's either a teammate or them, especially when the duo has already been to 3NBA finals, winning two of them. Yes, I'm talking about Kobe Bryant.

    JO complained about the new style of offense after 8games, and it went back to just dumping it to him into the low post.

    This also a time where ESPN runs a show called "street ball" where the whole thing is designed to make your opponent look stupid by throwing the ball of the defenders forehead.

    In my opinion, high school and college basketball hasn't been touched quite as heavily as the NBA as a "me first" game.

    BTW, I wasn't old enough to have MJ and Magic shoved down my throat either.

    EDIT: How many times on this board have we discussed the reasons why the Pacers have a similiar record with JO injured than when he's playing? It's always because we go away from the "JO offense" and play as a team. The league is filled with a whole bunch of iso plays, whether they're for post players or for perimeter, it really doesn't matter.

    Obviously the NBA is the best in terms of the level of basketball being played. I'm not even coming close to arguing that. Individually, it's the greatest league in the world, with the best players in the world. I would just rather watch a game that was bigger than the "stars," and I think the college game is the best place for it.

  7. #82
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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    There have been so many examples of selfish a-holes in college and HS sports. Sure, the NBA has some, but they are just the most famous ones.

    How many NCAA kids transfer schools? How many kids hog the ball? How many end up in public disputes with thier coach? How many try to jump to the NBA at the first opportunity?

    I'm glad you brough up Shaq and Kobe, because one thing is for sure, they played well together on the court, they were great compliments and those Laker teams did in fact play a pretty well-rounded team game.

    I want to hear how college teams as a whole play with more teamwork on the court than NBA teams. Try and prove it without bringing up off the court stuff as evidence.

    Fact is, the NCAA game is a SLOWER game, so it's easier for fans to follow the plays. That makes fans think that they are seeing more plays and more teamwork. The shot clock is 35 seconds, allowing for more passes. There is a 5 second rule so there is less isolation play.

    In the NBA, you can't pass the ball 12 times when you only get roughly 20 seconds to find a weakness in the defense and exploit it. sometimes the weakness appears 4 seconds in and WHAM the ball is in the hole and the play is over. That doesn't mean there was no teamwork, in fact it often means there was great teamwork but lazy fans aren't quick enough to see it.
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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    I find the ego-maniac coaches in the semi-pro (Division I, major conferene) (thanks Mark) game make it utterly unwatchable.

    If I want to watch basketball, its because I want to watch the players play, not watch some guy in a suit who isn't even involved interject himself into the action. I'll go watch the conductor at a symphony do that before I'll purposely sit through a game at the semi-pro level with inferior players and overrated coaches.

    If you want to blame the NBA and its drafting of younger and younger players for the decline of the NCAA, so be it. I won't argue that point. But semi-pro (ie, Division I) basketball is a very poor example of teamwork, fundamentals, whatever. Division I college basketball is just as corrupt with lazy, me-first players as the NBA. They're generally only playing for NBA draft options, not the team. And they're not student-athletes, unless they're playing at Texas Tech.

    If you want to watch the things Since86 talks about, go watch a Division III team. In real life, I've been getting to know the guy that coaches the Division III team here in my western suburb of Chicago. Maybe if I swear off the Pacers/ NBA altogether I'll get into the habit of following his team.
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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Have they unraveled yet?

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    okay lets... i'll focus on players back to dale davis that gives us about 15 years to examine

    Fred Jones (#15): Still in the league. The only two notable people he was picked in front of were Tayshaun Prince (#23) and Carlos Boozer (#35) but Boozer was essentially passed over by most. Other than missing the boat on those two, I'm not sure how Fred was a terrible choice. The Cavs selected Dajuan Wagner 30 picks ahead of Boozer so everybody missed the boat on Boozer. anyway he is still playing so he wasn't terrible and we never overpaid him.

    Austin Croshere (#12): who that is still playing in the league would you rather have? stephen jackson? anthony johnson? kelvin cato? anderson? this pick makes perfect sense. and despite the massive contract (which you can't blame on him, he earned a contract extension and a raise, blame TPTB for the amount of the raise) how has croshere been a bust?

    Erick Dampier (#10): This was probably a bad draft pick, although he's still a starter in the league. What was bad about it was that we didn't hang on to him, had we kept him it might not be so bad. We missed Kobe, Nash, Peja and Jermaine in the 1st round. JO didn't blossom until he got to the Pacers, Peja would have been a better draft choice because at the time we had MJax, Workman, Hoiberg... we already had Reggie, Rose and McKey around the SF and SG spots...

    Eric Piatkowski (#18): does he count since we traded him away and didn't play for indiana? if so, he is still in the league and while he's not playing in phoenix (lets face it no one besides the top 7 play any significant minutes) he's had a decent career.

    Scott Haskin (#14): a genuine bust.

    Malik Sealy (#10): probably would still be playing today.

    Dale Davis (#13): is this considered a bust? i would hope not.



    just because we haven't drafted a genuine superstar doesn't mean this team hasn't drafted well. you have to look at the needs of the team and the players taken later. gilbert arenas was selected in the 2nd round so was boozer, just because hindsight helps now doesn't mean they were even close to obvious choices on draft night.
    I think you missed my point. The Pacers haven't selected a guy in the top 15 since Reggie Miller that ended up being a real difference maker. I'm not saying some of those guys haven't been decent ball players just not the second coming. A top 15 draft pick doesn't mean anything is all I'm saying, none of those guys you critiqued would make a difference on this team. Even in their primes.....

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    This subject has been beaten into the ground so many times.

    Fundamentals are NOT lacking any more in the NBA than in the NCAA. Look at FT% of pro players vs. NCAA. I'm trying to find the article that read the "NCAA players are better at fundamentals" myth the riot act, so give me some time.

    They are not better at the game. Never have been, never will be.

    There are many out there that consider the NBA age rule nothing more than indentured servitude. But I'll admit that it is not nearly as bad as the NFL/NCAA Football system.

    What does NCAA ball have over the pros? The game environment is much more fun for spectators. I prefer NCAA cheerleeding teams over NBA strippers - I mean - "dancers". They play live music instead of DJ bull****. They don't need an MC. They don't need silly contests or annoying sound affects. They don't play stupid sound affects during game play.

    NBA franchises everywhere need to try and figure out why they have a less enjoyable experience yet typically charge more money.

    I would prefer everything the NCAA does off the court, but the gameplay at the NBA level is a zillion times (to be scientific ) superior.

    Off to find the stat book ...
    Amen.

    Sidenote: I would be 5x more likely to buy a ticket to a Pacers game on a boring night if they had a live band rather than some of the worst songs/ sound effects possible. Let's bring back the band!

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    OK - I'm 80% sure that the passage I'm looking for was either written by John Feinstein in the book "Let Me Tell You a Story" or by L. Jon Wertheim in the book "Transition Game - How Hoosiers Went Hip-Hop".

    It was called "old white guy syndrome" and it showed how - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that both the attitude that the NBA was better in the "old days" and the attitude that NCAA bball is a more "pure" form of the sport compared to NBA ball are not founded in truth.

    The other 20% of me thinks I read the article online, perhaps in ESPN Insider.
    I have that book, I could look it up for you tomorrow. Remind me then if you really want to know

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Well considering that I'm only 20years old, I doubt I fall into the category of an "old white guy."

    I just don't know how you can say that the NBA isn't a "me" first league when you have players tell management it's either a teammate or them, especially when the duo has already been to 3NBA finals, winning two of them. Yes, I'm talking about Kobe Bryant.

    JO complained about the new style of offense after 8games, and it went back to just dumping it to him into the low post.

    This also a time where ESPN runs a show called "street ball" where the whole thing is designed to make your opponent look stupid by throwing the ball of the defenders forehead.

    In my opinion, high school and college basketball hasn't been touched quite as heavily as the NBA as a "me first" game.

    BTW, I wasn't old enough to have MJ and Magic shoved down my throat either.

    EDIT: How many times on this board have we discussed the reasons why the Pacers have a similiar record with JO injured than when he's playing? It's always because we go away from the "JO offense" and play as a team. The league is filled with a whole bunch of iso plays, whether they're for post players or for perimeter, it really doesn't matter.

    Obviously the NBA is the best in terms of the level of basketball being played. I'm not even coming close to arguing that. Individually, it's the greatest league in the world, with the best players in the world. I would just rather watch a game that was bigger than the "stars," and I think the college game is the best place for it.

    Just so you aren't on an island I'll agree with you. Here are things you see more at the Pro level that you don't see as much in college.

    1. Star Treatment- This does happen some, but not nearly as much as it does in the NBA.

    2. Traveling is called with greater frequency.

    3. Palming is called with greater frequency.

    I think since fouls are called with greater frequency, you force people to play more basketball vs. the abridged version we see in the NBA. And especially at a high school level many kids can't dunk, which forces them to work on shooting, passing, etc.

    It has oft been said that Kareem Abdul Jabbar was so lucky they didn't allow dunking when he was in college. He learned to become a pure shooter vs. just dribbling down the court and throwing the ball in he basket. And I'll take the opinions of guys like Larry and Donny as it relates to the fundamentals of guys who play in college vs. those who have one year or come straight out of high school.

    Everybody will hate to hear this, but if you want to see the power of teamwork, keep watching Team USA get punked by lesser quality teams b/c of our inability to play as well as a unit.

    I respect everybody's opinion, but the game played at the collegiate and high school level is way closer to the fundamentals. Are the players as talented? Not by a long shot, but it is often more fun to watch. You also find way more upsets in a one and done tournament vs. the NBA. That always keeps things interesting.
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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    I think you missed my point. The Pacers haven't selected a guy in the top 15 since Reggie Miller that ended up being a real difference maker. I'm not saying some of those guys haven't been decent ball players just not the second coming. A top 15 draft pick doesn't mean anything is all I'm saying, none of those guys you critiqued would make a difference on this team. Even in their primes.....
    and my point is who were the difference makers that the pacers passed up those years? you say they didn't draft a difference maker but what opportunities did they not jump on? no they may not have been stars, but as i tried to demonstrate how many have been busts? one. nash didn't start to be the star player until dallas and even then it took moving him back to PHX for him to be MVP caliber. kobe was a high school kid, what is more bone-headed not drafting him or trading him for vlade divac? peja... lets face it, had bird been GM we would have been all over peja -- we know how he gets for hot shooting europeans. but the draft is a total crapshoot. none of us knows if greg oden will work out or kevin durant. who knows 5 years from now oden could be in bryant reeves territory and alando tucker (who is predicted to go mid-to-late 1st round) could be MVP. so none of our draft picks have become allstars but many of them have made it in this league and are still playing years later.
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    If we continue to free fall, at some point, most of you are going to get on the band wagon and start rooting for us to make the 10th spot in the draft.

    The losing is painful, but it will be more painful to win a few extra games but still finish in ninth place in the Conference and out of the playoffs.

    I'm frankly not sure we will beat Philly at home. Their guards are much better. JO also is probably not going to last out the season without missing a number of games. Some seem to think that will help us win games; that is crazy talk.

    Dark stuff I know. But just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    LA.....I've been beating THAT drum for a number of years. Years ago the P's DID have school bands from across the region perform at the games and it was FUN. Plus it had the added benefit of contributing to gaining those musicians and their family as fans.
    But some PooBah somewhere said NOPE..ain't giving away no more free tickets.
    Heck, even the guy playing the Hammond B3 organ was better than the carp they bombard us with at the games now. Some may remember that I protested the race car noises for years by not going to a single game. (lotta good THAT did)

    Anyway, the atmosphere at the college games is a lot more enjoyable than that at a Pacer game IMO. I love to go out to Hinkle and watch Butler play....I even go to Uni of Indy (my alma mater) and watch them from time2time. It's FUN (and cheaper).
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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Years ago the P's DID have school bands from across the region perform at the games and it was FUN. Plus it had the added benefit of contributing to gaining those musicians and their family as fans.
    My mom told me about this. When she was in school, her band would go play for the games. She also talks about how the atmosphere was great at the games and everyone enjoyed themselves...unlike now.

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthman View Post
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    If we continue to free fall, at some point, most of you are going to get on the band wagon and start rooting for us to make the 10th spot in the draft.

    The losing is painful, but it will be more painful to win a few extra games but still finish in ninth place in the Conference and out of the playoffs.

    I'm frankly not sure we will beat Philly at home. Their guards are much better. JO also is probably not going to last out the season without missing a number of games. Some seem to think that will help us win games; that is crazy talk.

    Dark stuff I know. But just my opinion.

    I'm already with ya! If we're gonna suck this bad anyway, why not hope it winds up in the most positive possible way. In our case, that's retaining our #1 this summer. Sure drafting isn't a science. We could pick somebody that offers us zilch.

    But given it's regarded as a really good draft and we need new player influx through any and all possible avenues, IMO it's the proverbial silver lining outcome to the dark cloud cast over us since the ASB. I would be cool if this whole tailspin resulted in us getting a shot at Acie Law. At this point it can't possibly hurt can it?

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    Minority example.
    Minority? Riiiiiight.

    Let's take a look at the championship teams of the past two decades......

    Heat...Dwyane Wade DRAFT
    Spurs...Tim Duncan DRAFT
    Lakers...Kobe Bryant DRAFT
    Bulls...Michael Jordan & Scottie Pippen DRAFT
    Rockets...Hakeem Olajuwon DRAFT
    Pistons....Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman DRAFT
    Lakers....Magic Johnson & James Worthy DRAFT
    Celtics....Larry Bird, Kevin McHale DRAFT

    You have to go clear back to the 1982-83 Philadelphia 76ers to find a championship team that didn't get at least one of their top-2 players via the draft. And even they got the great Mo Cheeks via the draft.

    By the way, I realize there will be people saying that Kobe and Scottie weren't drafted by the Lakers and Bulls, however they were with those teams before draft night was over, that's as good as drafting them. The rest is just useless semantics.

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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by pacersfaninchina View Post
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    Lakers......Kobe Bryant DRAFT
    If I were the Hornets I would never be able to get over that trade.

  21. #96
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by indyman37 View Post
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    If I were the Hornets I would never be able to get over that trade.
    Those who do not remember history...

    That was blackmail, pure and simple. The Hornets certainly didn't want that trade, but it was better than KobeBaby sitting out on them.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
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  22. #97
    Member indyman37's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Those who do not remember history...

    That was blackmail, pure and simple. The Hornets certainly didn't want that trade, but it was better than KobeBaby sitting out on them.
    My bad...I was 4 years old when that draft happened.

  23. #98
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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Those who do not remember history...

    That was blackmail, pure and simple. The Hornets certainly didn't want that trade, but it was better than KobeBaby sitting out on them.
    One of the many reasons I despise Kobe Bryant.

  24. #99
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    One big advatange college ball has over the NBA is the crowd is much more into the game. Everyone agrees with that right. But then a funny thing happens. The conference tournaments start and the home college crowd is completely gone. The NCAA turnament starts and there isn't any crowd noise really at all, because there are either 4 or 8 sets of fans. The final four lacks atmosphere because they are always played in huge domes. So IMO the only advantage college ball has over the NBA is taken away at tournament time. But no one ever brings this point up
    The crowds are much better during the NBA playoffs then they are at any NCAA games.

  25. #100

    Default Re: Mark & Slick: the Pacers are a team in crises, close to unravelling

    An advantage that the NCAA post season tourney has over the NBA playoffs is that it is win or go home. Hard to beat that for drama.

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