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Thread: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

  1. #51

    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    The one thing that I'm really upset about is that Marquis Daniels played tonight. MB casually mentioned that he's not ready for back-to-backs yet and he'll sit tomorrow night. Why on earth would you not sit him tonight and be at full strength for a game that there is an actual chance to win?

    2 years ago it was the suspensions, last year it was inuries + Artest drama, this year it's been off-court issues + inconsistent play. That light at the end of the tunnel isn't getting brighter.

  2. #52
    Member Mr.ThunderMakeR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    You all are acting like its the end of the world. We lost 2 games to the Suns. The Suns are a pretty damn good team right now.

    Get over it.

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    No comments from all the folks who were sobbing after the previous loss to the Suns about how Jermaine DOMINATED Amare and was let down by all his teammates?

    That was quite a dominant 2-point second half by our leader.

    Maybe Amare shouldn't actually bow down before him just yet.
    Nice way to troll there buddy. Now that I'm finished sobbing over the loss, I guess Ill bite since I was giving him a lot of praise.

    Amare isn't half the player JO is. JO is a complete player both ends of the court. Amare does not have the ability to take over a game like JO does and he is a product of the system he plays in. Put Amare on any other team that doesnt include Steve Nash or Mike D'antoni and he won't put up near the same numbers. Don't get me wrong Amare is a great player, but JO is in a whole other class.

    Just because you lack the ability to see the big picture and instead prefer to make snap judgments after every single game, don't assume that everyone else does the same.

    JO had a bad game, it happens. The Suns figured out that if you pressure him noone else on the Pacers will step up to help. Yet JO is having an mvp-caliber season. Unfortunately we don't have the wins to get him the votes. That's not his fault, he is playing the best ball of his career. That is management's fault for not putting a decent team around him.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartlandFan View Post
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    I would much rather rebuild this offseason, and be stuck at the bottom of the league for a couple years than I would be stuck with the team we have now, consistently being put out after the first round without the pieces to improve. Whether Pacer fans want to believe it or not, if JO isn't traded this summer, or before the trade deadline next year, he's gone. After that, what do you do? We're left with a team of Murphy, Dunleavy, and Granger as our core.

    We have two options this offseason. We can either settle for mediocrity, and go another decade without winning a championship. Or, we can gamble. Start fresh. Build the team from the ground up starting with the draft. It's true that building through the draft doesn't always work, but like BnG has already mentioned, at least there will be hope.

    Rebuild for a couple of seasons?Hope?Talk to Hawk fans about that.There are teams that have been trying to rebuild for 5-8 years.It's not as easy as you make it seem.Alot of us are going crazy,but were still a playoff team right now.What would you guys do if we try to rebuild and all of a sudden we become the hawks,blazers,Bobcats,Warriors,Knicks ect.I can't remember those teasm even getting close enough to sniff making the playoffs.Every year we get top draft picks and every year we show very little improvement.Is that what you want.It's a good chance that might happen if you truly rebuild.

    You want to rebuild fine,you want to trade JO fine, but if your trading him for players with potential or high draft picks you better be sure your getting the right type of player or else we become the Hawks for the next 8 years.If you can live with that possibiltiy then we can rebuild from scratch.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    I can see where both sides are coming from when it comes to wanting to make the playoffs and root for your team, but I can also understand the frustrations of those who find it hard to watch and want to try and rebuild.

    I can't recall who said this, but either an analyst or writer was talking about GMs, and they said that a GMs job will always be safe as long as the fans see a team on the floor that can compete for a championship! Of course all fans want to WIN a championship, but most fans are happy as long as year after year, they can look at there team and feel they at least have a chance to contend!

    I think for the 1st time in awhile, Pacers fans don't feel that they at least have a chance to contend.

  6. #56
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by Quis View Post
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    R O N A R T E S T


    Why did you have to be so crazy?
    The better question:

    Why was Ron scared to play in Indiana last Sunday? I'm pretty sure he won't be having family problems when we play them next week in the safe comforts of Sacramento.
    Super Bowl XLI Champions
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  7. #57
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Maybe you are right. I just know we no longer have pieces we can trade to construct a better team. Maybe the draft is not the best way to rebuild, but it's better than any other option.

    In short, it is clear this team will never contend for a championship. That will become crystal clear to JO very soon, if not already. We Pacer fans have gotten used to having talented players and a shot at contending. For the first time since Reggie's early years, this is no longer true. I personally don't like watching the Pacers compete when I know they cannot advance in the playoffs. I would rather have a good pick and have some hope of improvement...even if it's false hope.

    Man, that sounds pathetic!
    Maybe, but I sure do aggree with what your saying. I could do without a first round sweep of my team. Where the hell is the "honour" in that?

    Besides, we NEED an infusion of TALENT this summer and a top-10 pick is the cheapest way to start that process and since we don't have a lot of caproom or options with this team without sacrificing some of our core players or some of our young talents (JO and Danny and Shawn and Ike respectively) I think we have to get that pick.

    Regards,

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  8. #58

    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.ThunderMakeR View Post
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    Nice way to troll there buddy...

    Just because you lack the ability to see the big picture and instead prefer to make snap judgments after every single game, don't assume that everyone else does the same.
    My exact point was that you and others are the ones who make snap judgements about every game, worship individual players and not the team, never see the big picture and waffle between "the sky is falling" and "we are winning it all" and on top of that, you make rude posts attacking those who disagree with you.

    Since I have never heard of you before, I suggest that the troll can be seen staring back at you when you look in the mirror.

  9. #59
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by mike_D View Post
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    Rebuild for a couple of seasons?Hope?Talk to Hawk fans about that.There are teams that have been trying to rebuild for 5-8 years.It's not as easy as you make it seem.Alot of us are going crazy,but were still a playoff team right now.What would you guys do if we try to rebuild and all of a sudden we become the hawks,blazers,Bobcats,Warriors,Knicks ect.I can't remember those teasm even getting close enough to sniff making the playoffs.Every year we get top draft picks and every year we show very little improvement.Is that what you want.It's a good chance that might happen if you truly rebuild.

    You want to rebuild fine,you want to trade JO fine, but if your trading him for players with potential or high draft picks you better be sure your getting the right type of player or else we become the Hawks for the next 8 years.If you can live with that possibiltiy then we can rebuild from scratch.
    Great, great points all around

  10. #60

    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneal07 View Post
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    Yeah I remember when we played Miami, Greene slowed Wade down a bit and played him aggresive and efficient, But rick keeps him on the bench cause he's a dumbass. . .I'd rather have Mike Fratello on our team coachin
    Being a little hard on Orien Green there aren't you?







  11. #61
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Rebuilding is fraught with risk, however that is how DW originally put together a team that carried this franchise for at least 10 years. How long would it
    take to rebuild? Really depends on the players obtained. One or two key players and you can do it. But I would say 5 years of no play-offs if
    JO goes. I am really concerned about JO's chronic injuries. He has a hard
    time staying healthy.
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by mike_D View Post
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    Rebuild for a couple of seasons?Hope?Talk to Hawk fans about that.There are teams that have been trying to rebuild for 5-8 years.It's not as easy as you make it seem.Alot of us are going crazy,but were still a playoff team right now.What would you guys do if we try to rebuild and all of a sudden we become the hawks,blazers,Bobcats,Warriors,Knicks ect.I can't remember those teasm even getting close enough to sniff making the playoffs.Every year we get top draft picks and every year we show very little improvement.Is that what you want.It's a good chance that might happen if you truly rebuild.

    You want to rebuild fine,you want to trade JO fine, but if your trading him for players with potential or high draft picks you better be sure your getting the right type of player or else we become the Hawks for the next 8 years.If you can live with that possibiltiy then we can rebuild from scratch.
    Good point, but this all comes down to how good management is. The Hawks have terrible management. So do the rest of the teams you mention. That's why they stay in the cellar so long. The Hawks draft picks have been an absolute joke.

    I agree that the draft is no guarantee of improvement, but it was not long ago that Michael Jordan was winning championships with the Bulls...six of them. Now they have a contender again, largely on the back of draft picks. Sure, Ben Wallace was a free agent, but they had a nice promising team that made him interested in coming. Toronto was largely built with draft picks and leads the Atlantic now. They will be getting a lot better. Cleveland was nothing until they drafted Lebron. Orlando was horrific and got a whole lot better on the draft. The Knicks wouldn't be able to beat a high school team (due to incredibly horrific management decisions) if they did not get regular infusions of talent. Now, they are playing much better and I would not at all be surprised if they make the playoffs this year. ...and it wasn't that long ago that Patrick Ewing suited up.

    BTW, that does NOT bode well for our future. Larry Bird or the Bird Committee has made way too many poor decisions. Let's just say that Bird is a great player, but no rocket scientist. So, maybe you really are correct with the Hawks analogy.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    What I sense from those of you afraid to rebuild is that deep down you don't trust Donnie Walsh to bring us back. Or Larry Bird if you prefer.

    Consider the track record of transactions by Golden State, Atlanta, and New York. Now there's more than one reason for their situations, but a big one is the calls they've made for trades and draft picks. Charlotte doesn't fit in with them IMO because I think they're playing it smart. They've kept themselves cheap, they draft players high in the draft, and they're reaching the point where one of these next couple of summers, they could swoop up a big name free agent and maybe also a couple complimentary veteran pieces to go with that talent that will then have 1-3 years experience starting or getting big minutes, and suddenly they're a playoff team. The mistake is overspending on "not good enough" which, as constructed, that's where we are.

    The hope for me is, we may not even need to go that route. I think we have enough pieces that if we were to pick a top-10 player from this draft, and then sign the best player the MLE can land us, we'd have a good shot at being a pretty good team next year. A lot better than this win 3, lose 3 stuff. Now that may be a bit of a sunshine outlook considering the fact that every day I grow more concerned that Rick has been tuned out and/or just doesn't know what to do with this team to win a title, but I am cautiously optimistic that adding those pieces would do wonders.

    If not, then tell me where it ends. How do we go from this mediocrity (and an expense one at that) to a contender without stepping backwards first? I just don't see it unless the top-talents we have have major mental adjustments. Dunleavy gets aggressive and "mean", JO starts attacking the basket, Tinsley stops taking awful shots, etc. I don't expect any of that to change, and without that I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel other than a train.

  14. #64

    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    When the GS trade went down, fans from both teams were so happy...
    Each camp was confident that the other one got screwed, and sadly both were right.

    There are no real alternatives but to rebuild, and replace the coach.
    BTW - I consider tanking a non-sportive act. But logically - it's the best option.

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    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Another added advantage to getting that pick is that we could deal the pick for a decent PG, so we don't have to waite 2 or more years for the player we picked to develop, if done well we might actually ditch one of our "less desired" players with it.

    What it amounts too... sure we don't make the play-offs (and the subsequent sweep) for one year, but our flexibility to get better just helps us so much more then if we were to play in the play-offs this year.

    And, yes, tanking isn't very sportive, but I think Indiana is one of the last teams that could get blamed for that given it's track-record over the past 18 years and how some of the other teams have indeed been tanking.

    Regards,

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Its just amazing how you see guys just watch their PG, SG, and SF just drive right pas the Pacers. The Pacers don't move one bit on defense. They do every so often...they help out here and there. but, for the most part JO, Dunleavey, Tinsley just watched guys go by them. I remember seeing twice I know for sure JO just let the guy go right around him while he saw the guy at the free throw line. I am fan and will continue to watch, but this team really is bad. dunleavey is streaky, Murphy is so-so, Tinsley is on of the best ball handlers in the NBA, but past that I question him. Daniels is the ONLY guy that can make something happen, but he is starting to be hurt every other game.

  17. #67
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    The mistake is overspending on "not good enough" which, as constructed, that's where we are.
    Which is the biggest reason the Jack/Al for Dun/Murph trade was a mistake. Al and Jack were close to fair pay levels, and the team had finally moved out it's last 2 bad contracts.

    Everything they had was tradable from a financial standpoint, teams wouldn't balk at paying too much for what they were getting.

    If Jack stays and goes to jail, your out of that contract. If he doesn't get convicted then it helps clear his name with other teams.


    The team can fire Rick if you want it so bad, but WTF are they going to do with those contracts? No one is going to trade you a draft pick for Dunleavy. In fact what can you get for Dun in this market? Or Murph even?

    I'd suggest that the Warriors don't even want to undo the trade at this point, so you couldn't even get Jack/Al for them now. Golden State was back in the playoffs but has had to go on the road (and 4 games in 5 nights at one point) and play without Jackson (broken toe, out last 3 games) and Baron Davis (out since FEB 3rd) and has been losing.



    Teams want JO, but they will have to send contracts of that caliber back. A team might give up one young start to get JO, but his deal willl be much cheaper (due to tenure) and that means you have to eat a bigger contract to fill it out, so you take on something like AC's deal all over again just to get some young talent like a Curry or even a Diogu.



    The team made a deal, since that deal they have played worse. How hard is the math on this?

    And the contracts make it tougher to get out of this new situation than it was to get out of the old one.

  18. #68
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Slade View Post
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    This whole tanking thing is absurd you think it's bad now, if the Pacers were to throw the rest of the season away. JO will walk, more of the fanbase gone, if you had any leverage of attracting FA's before forget it.
    Remember that was exactly the issue Chicago had. Jordand had nothing good to say about mgmt, they were alienating players with their cost cutting attitude, and stars didn't want to get involved with a team being run like that so they stayed away.

    And QFT on your amen to KStat's comment about being in the playoffs better than being out, always.

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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy View Post
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    Did anyone else notice us running the same offensive play [the one where Granger screens and JO comes through for a post up] through the entire first quarter?
    Um, no. In fact the first 2 trips were that set, then the next couple (not including the break) were a different set, the Murph downscreen (I think TBird calls this a thumb screen?) for Danny after DG first sets a backdoor screen for Dun along the baseline. JO feeds the backdoor if it opens up (PHX switched it so it didn't), then looks for DG to fade off the screen or curl the lane off of it, this included Danny's first missed jumper when he faded.

    Not only that, but the first score of the game (using the set you mention) was JO getting a shot in the lane coming across, not from the low post. The part you describe is just one phase of the entire play, one which features about 4-5 different option points depending on the defense.

    Coming to the low post is stage 2 after flashing the lane. From that you have Murph and Dun cut through the lane looking to attack any double team action, then a kick out to Tins (option to attack double if Tins man goes at JO) to ball reverse around to DG for the 3/long jumper if Murph screens his man well (he didn't early on), then if that's not there Murph can fade as DG comes toward the backcourt to get a short baseline jumper or drive (which he did for his first bucket).


    So in THAT sense, yeah, they ran the "same" play a lot.

    This just in, did anyone notice how much the Colts kept running the same 2 TE formation in the Super Bowl?

  20. #70
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Which is the biggest reason the Jack/Al for Dun/Murph trade was a mistake. Al and Jack were close to fair pay levels, and the team had finally moved out it's last 2 bad contracts.

    I don't agree. Jackson and Tinsley both had bad contracts. Al's was pretty good. Keep in mind though this was the only way we could have gotten rid of Jackson.


    OK, using Hoopshype.com as my source I went year by year just to see exactly how much more Murphy and Dunleavy make than Jax and Al.

    While both Murphy and Dunleavy are overpaid, Murphy is more overpaid then Mike. Troy makes anywhere from 1M to 1.3M more per year than Mike -

    Going per year this is the difference in Jax+Al compared to Murph + Mike.

    '07 - 2M
    '08 - 2.7M
    '09 - 2.8M
    '10 - 3.1M
    '11 - 22.5M


    Obviously Al and Jax contracts expire before 2011. But the other individual year differences are not significant. So all we are really talking about is 1 extra year.

    And for the record, I don't have a real problem paying Dunleavy what he's getting - I think he'll improve quite a bit over the next two years.

  21. #71

    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    The important thing from last night's game was that Rick Carlisle broke his 320 game streak of wearing a white shirt and went with a blue one.

    Can't wait for tonight's game with Bender II in streetclothes. (Yes, I'm still bitter that he played last night)

  22. #72
    Member Mr.ThunderMakeR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Game Thread - Another Loss to the Suns

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    My exact point was that you and others are the ones who make snap judgements about every game, worship individual players and not the team, never see the big picture and waffle between "the sky is falling" and "we are winning it all" and on top of that, you make rude posts attacking those who disagree with you.

    Since I have never heard of you before, I suggest that the troll can be seen staring back at you when you look in the mirror.
    Like I said, you are making the assumption that those who gave JO the praise after the first Sun's game (and he rightfully deserved it) are deciding that hes a good player after only that one game. I think he is getting the praise for the season he is having. A lot of people have been disappointed with him after the last two seasons but he is back to MVP form this SEASON, not just that single game. For obvious reasons this makes some of us very happy.

    Ill agree with you that a lot of people are doing the waffling but thats just normal after-game emotions and I guess you just have to get used to it around here. I also don't think Im a poster who does that so look up my posts if you want to prove me wrong.

    But the way you phrased your original post I still consider trolling. Saying that people were "sobbing" for JO is a little bit over the top. The fact is JO does not have the team around him to contend for a title and you can see why he might be upset.

    Edit: This is the last Im going to post here on the JO subject. Its been debated to death. There are like 6 active topics on JO right now. Theres no reason to turn this into another one.

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