Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

Collapse
X
Collapse
 
  • Page of 3
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
Previous 1 2 3 template Next
  • #1

    Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Shooting is such a delicate thing. We all recognize that Dunleavy is about a 44% lifetime shooter, and that he is near that with us. Lots of people seem surprised by his struggles from the perimeter, as he generally takes good shots that are open, has good size to see over defenders, and doesnt have any obvious reasons why he shouldnt be a better shooter. The fact remains however that for his entire career he has struggled with his shot accuracy....the question I want to pose today is why, and what some possible solutions might be.

    Some coaches at higher levels firmly believe that a person's jump shot, much like a quarterbacks throwing motion or a pitchers windup in baseball, shouldnt be tampered much, since its obviously been effective enough to get them to this point. Sometimes the solutions to a problem can be more problematic than the original issue that was trying to be solved. I can only wonder if Dunleavy's pro coaches have been of that type, because clearly with his pedigree, Dunleavy you would think would be a better shooter than he is in reality.

    Shooting can be so much mental, and then again so much fundamentals....there is no reason why Dunleavy should have mental issues I dont believe, so Ive been really really watching him (along with a couple of other coaching friends of mine who I talk to) just to see if we see anything in his delivery or shot that makes him miss more than he should. First of all, a couple of observations:

    1. Dunleavy takes good shots: He rarely forces a bad jumper, isnt asked to make bailout plays against the shot clock, and is usually not the focal point of the opponents defense. Its these mitigating factors that really got me to really study all aspects of his shot to see if I saw anything....He SHOULD BE BETTER, but his track record says he isn't....he intrigues the coach in me.

    2. The Pacers are not generally one of the teams who believe in letting a guy shoot the way he shoots, even if it's wrong. Carlisle and Bird both really helped develop jump shots of Austin Croshere and Mark Jackson...AC by getting his elbow consistently underneath the ball, and getting Jax to step into his shot more and use his legs. Each became a better shooter than they were when this staff got in place.

    OK, so what is it with Dunleavy? From our vantage points in person a couple of times and on video, my friends and I see the following areas of adjustment that the Pacers can make IN THE OFFSEASON to work on Dunleavy's accuracy.

    A: Hand position: I can't completely tell from video, but I have read and have come to the conclusion that Dunleavy has larger than average hands, relative to the size of the rest of his body. Particularly I think he has really long fingers. This matters in a jump shooter because if you shoot with your hand totally stretched out it disrupts the spin of the ball, if your hands are too stretched....it also makes you get too much of the palm and base of your hand onto the ball, throwing off your accuracy slightly.
    SOLUTION IF THIS IS RIGHT: Pull in your fingers slightly, and really emphasize getting the ball onto your fingertips. You need to "shrink" up your shooting hand in other words....There are drills for this that are common to the game, but if this is right he'll need lots of drill work in the summer to try and break that habit or tendency.

    B: Ball position: I think this is an issue Bird particularly can help him with in the offseason. Dunleavy doesnt hold the ball in a particularly bad spot for his release, but in my judgment he holds it too low and too in front of his face, possibly even blocking his own vision when shooting slightly. This is a fairly common problem that happens to players early in their development sometimes. Average shooters hold it this way, but the great shooters don't.
    SOLUTION IF THIS IS RIGHT: A total revamp of his release point on his shot, but more than that a complete revamp of where Dunleavy holds the ball as he is "cocking" for the shot. My visions for this are 2 players: Larry Bird and Dirk Nowitzki, who both hold the ball before the shot is actually released to the side of their heads, higher in the air than Dunleavy does. What Im saying is....Dunleavy needs to get his arms out of the way of his head so he can release the ball higher and in a more consistent way. This is going to take repetitive shooting, a mental commitment to change, and lots of video work.....and it carries a risk of backfiring if he cant handle the change.

    C. Vision issues. I have no idea of Dunleavy's medicals....but I sometimes see him on the floor and wonder how his vision is. I wonder if just an old fashioned eye exam might help.
    SOLUTION IF RIGHT: Laser vision surgery.

    D. Conditioning issues: One friend of mine watches Dunleavy and doesnt think he is in optimal great shape, which hurts his concentration and takes his legs from him at times. This person thinks his shootig form, while not totally perfect, would be solved simply be getting Junior in better physical condition....and he questions whether Dunleavy has the drive to make that happen after earning his payday already.
    SOLUTION IF RIGHT: Pacers need to hire a personal trainer, keep Dunleavy in Indianapolis all summer, and try and "coach him up" all summer. It also might help to publically call him out, raise the stakes and put some pressure on Dunleavy to be as good a player as it seems like he should be based on his talent, size, and pedigree.

    For those of you who watch the game with a critical eye, Id love for us to watch Dunleavy and really analyze his shot technique and see if we see something in it that I didnt mention. Id love to hear opinions on what we think the problem is. Im not prepared yet to say Dunleavy is as bad a shooter as his career numbers suggest, and I know his game is an ultimate conundrem for the Pacers staff. I also know that the Pacers are fiming everyone of Dunleavy's shots in practices and games with a camera isolated on him to try and do the same thing my friends and I took on just for fun....what does Pacersdigest see ?
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    I can't see why he's missing his shots, at all. His form is so consistent, and looks good with every shot.

    I've heard a few people mention lateral movement when he jumps, and I've seen a little of it. And, when he misses, he's usually off to a side, not short or long. It's just so odd because he has total control of his shot.


    Good thread, and I'm interested in reading what other people see. There has to be something visible, but I can't see it.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

      Originally posted by imawhat View Post
      I can't see why he's missing his shots, at all. His form is so consistent, and looks good with every shot.

      I've heard a few people mention lateral movement when he jumps, and I've seen a little of it. And, when he misses, he's usually off to a side, not short or long. It's just so odd because he has total control of his shot.


      Good thread, and I'm interested in reading what other people see. There has to be something visible, but I can't see it.

      I will say this...if there is one thing that the Pacers current staff of people should be able to help a player with, its shooting form. On the other hand, Chris Mullin didnt help Dunleavy much apparently, so I wonder about Bird.

      I can totally understand "drifting" or "leaning" during a shot, because as a high school player who wasnt that good I had that particular weakness myself....for some reason I tended to lean to the left when shooting and had to always fight that. Of course, I was 6'2, slow as molasses and couldnt jump over a sheet of paper, so it wasnt my only problem lol.

      One other question as I think about this: Assuming that RC or Bird or Chuck Person or whomever DOES find a solution and is able to help Dunleavy shoot better, do you think anyone will publically state that or take credit for it? Should they or should they not announce it thru the media to all of us big time fans?

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

        Originally posted by imawhat View Post
        I can't see why he's missing his shots, at all. His form is so consistent, and looks good with every shot.

        I've heard a few people mention lateral movement when he jumps, and I've seen a little of it. And, when he misses, he's usually off to a side, not short or long. It's just so odd because he has total control of his shot.


        Good thread, and I'm interested in reading what other people see. There has to be something visible, but I can't see it.

        I also have noticed that Dun does seem to move lateraly when he jumps to shoot. Moving to one side or the another adds another element in shooting the ball that isn't neccessary. JO's shooting problems are similar, only he fades away with his shot, adding more difficulty to the shot. The more movement in the shooting form, either laterally or fading away adds to the difficulty, and therefore is not conducive to high shooting percentages. Dun seems to rush his shots also, adding to his lateral moving problem.

        I agree with you, this is a good thread.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

          When Mike misses he misses badly usually clanging off the rim left or right. What I see is sometimes he releases the ball too low, sometimes too far to the right, almost from his right ear area.

          I heard Rick Carlisle talking about this and he said the coaching staff is really working with Mike on releasing the ball at the same point every time and also stepping into his threes.

          Even if his shooting doesn't really improve, I'm not concerned because I really like his overall game. He has great basketball instincts and a great basketball IQ (and those are two different things). Tinsley for example has great instincts but poor IQ.

          If you were to tell me that Mike was going to play the rest of his career as a Pacer, I'd be happy. But he needs to be a role player, certainly not the 1st or 2nd option. Offensively Mike reminds me of Derrick McKey - just extremely smart.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

            This is true. I also want to add to the list of players we've helped with shooting; Al Harrington and Fred Jones.

            The amount of progress Al made with his shot here is remarkable, and Fred Jones greatly improved. I never thought Al would have the shot he has now, especially after his first two seasons, so it gives me hope for someone like Orien Greene, a player who sounds willing to work hard at his game.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

              I think my biggest problem with Dunleavy is that I kind of hoped that he would be Mike Miller part 2. But he doesn't have that kind of range, or consistency. He's ok, though. He's not pure, but he is a threat.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

                Originally posted by Elgin56 View Post
                I also have noticed that Dun does seem to move lateraly when he jumps to shoot. Moving to one side or the another adds another element in shooting the ball that isn't neccessary. JO's shooting problems are similar, only he fades away with his shot, adding more difficulty to the shot. The more movement in the shooting form, either laterally or fading away adds to the difficulty, and therefore is not conducive to high shooting percentaces. Dun seems to rush his shots also, adding to his lateral moving problem.

                I agree with you, this is a good thread.
                I kind of want to piggyback on your comments about JO. There is a sort of awkwardness to Jermaine's form, which I think contributes to some bad misses for him. I don't think his fg% is all that high for a post player.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

                  Originally posted by johnnybegood View Post
                  I think my biggest problem with Dunleavy is that I kind of hoped that he would be Mike Miller part 2. But he doesn't have that kind of range, or consistency. He's ok, though. He's not pure, but he is a threat.

                  Well, obviously this is true....but my question is why? There is absolutley nothing in Dunleavy's background, work ethic, or style of play that says he shouldnt be as good or better than Mike Miller as a perimeter shooter, yet he clearly isnt. Im not ready to just write off Dunleavy and just accept his medicre jump shooting numbers, when he clearly in my judgment should be better than that.

                  Going up to what UB wrote about Dunleavy's release point being inconsistent, that leads me to ask all of you if thats true, where exactly do we want it to be?

                  I ask that because in my judgment, nothing in basketball is coached as poorly and taught so incorrectly at all levels of basketball than shooting form. For years, at almost every camp and at every level, the basics of shooting are basically taught the same way, and generally shooting accuracy hasnt improved much over the years.

                  Generally, the truly great shooters of our era (Nowitzki and Bird are again who Im using for an example) held the ball much more to the side and higher than is taught by most instructors and coaches. These 2 players also use/used their legs less than alot of players do, although I know their size has alot to do with that.

                  To illustrate what I mean, try and visualize standing directly behind most players as they take a perimeter shot, and then try and visualize standing behind Dirk or Bird. Can you see differences in your mind? Those 2 guys hold the ball much more elevated, and much more TO THE RIGHT than most players, which I think helped keep their elbow inside but more importantly helped their vision of the goal.

                  All of you reading this should go grab a basketball and try and "gather" themselves for the shot....can you see your target clearly the way you are holding the ball? Most people can't in reality, because either the ball itself or your arms partially block your view. Am I right?

                  When you hold the ball in the more traditional way, you either have to look "underneath" the ball to see the rim at the top of your jump, or hold the ball low enough to see over it. Each of these techniques have issues of timing and defense to overcome to make a shot....its just plain easier in my opinion to hold the ball more to the side of your head and high than directly in front of you......even though that is not the way its taught yet anywhere that Im aware of.

                  Croshere when joining the Pacers had some issues with his release point and this very problem.....he couldnt hold the ball in such a way that he could clearly see what he was shooting at. However, he struggled with the "side saddle" aproach that I personally am advocating, so the Pacers unique solution was to have him move the ball LEFTWARD, acros his face, and aim and fire with his head to the right of the ball. Ive never seen anyone else shoot that way to that extreme like he does but it has seemingly kept him in the league all this time.

                  Id love to see a really smart guy with lots of money completely and totally analyze the jump shot in a kinesiology department somewhere, and provide more physical data on what I think I believe but no one else does as yet.

                  Tbird

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

                    Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
                    I will say this...if there is one thing that the Pacers current staff of people should be able to help a player with, its shooting form. On the other hand, Chris Mullin didnt help Dunleavy much apparently, so I wonder about Bird.

                    I can totally understand "drifting" or "leaning" during a shot, because as a high school player who wasnt that good I had that particular weakness myself....for some reason I tended to lean to the left when shooting and had to always fight that. Of course, I was 6'2, slow as molasses and couldnt jump over a sheet of paper, so it wasnt my only problem lol.

                    One other question as I think about this: Assuming that RC or Bird or Chuck Person or whomever DOES find a solution and is able to help Dunleavy shoot better, do you think anyone will publically state that or take credit for it? Should they or should they not announce it thru the media to all of us big time fans?

                    I don't know about Dun's work ethics but what made Mully and Bird such good shooters were that they were gym rats. Maybe Dun just needs to shoot a few hundred shots, daily as Bird and Mully did.
                    .

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

                      From what I hear Dunleavy is a gym rat

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

                        Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
                        Well, obviously this is true....but my question is why? There is absolutley nothing in Dunleavy's background, work ethic, or style of play that says he shouldnt be as good or better than Mike Miller as a perimeter shooter, yet he clearly isnt. Im not ready to just write off Dunleavy and just accept his medicre jump shooting numbers, when he clearly in my judgment should be better than that.

                        Going up to what UB wrote about Dunleavy's release point being inconsistent, that leads me to ask all of you if thats true, where exactly do we want it to be?

                        I ask that because in my judgment, nothing in basketball is coached as poorly and taught so incorrectly at all levels of basketball than shooting form. For years, at almost every camp and at every level, the basics of shooting are basically taught the same way, and generally shooting accuracy hasnt improved much over the years.

                        Generally, the truly great shooters of our era (Nowitzki and Bird are again who Im using for an example) held the ball much more to the side and higher than is taught by most instructors and coaches. These 2 players also use/used their legs less than alot of players do, although I know their size has alot to do with that.

                        To illustrate what I mean, try and visualize standing directly behind most players as they take a perimeter shot, and then try and visualize standing behind Dirk or Bird. Can you see differences in your mind? Those 2 guys hold the ball much more elevated, and much more TO THE RIGHT than most players, which I think helped keep their elbow inside but more importantly helped their vision of the goal.

                        All of you reading this should go grab a basketball and try and "gather" themselves for the shot....can you see your target clearly the way you are holding the ball? Most people can't in reality, because either the ball itself or your arms partially block your view. Am I right?

                        When you hold the ball in the more traditional way, you either have to look "underneath" the ball to see the rim at the top of your jump, or hold the ball low enough to see over it. Each of these techniques have issues of timing and defense to overcome to make a shot....its just plain easier in my opinion to hold the ball more to the side of your head and high than directly in front of you......even though that is not the way its taught yet anywhere that Im aware of.

                        Croshere when joining the Pacers had some issues with his release point and this very problem.....he couldnt hold the ball in such a way that he could clearly see what he was shooting at. However, he struggled with the "side saddle" aproach that I personally am advocating, so the Pacers unique solution was to have him move the ball LEFTWARD, acros his face, and aim and fire with his head to the right of the ball. Ive never seen anyone else shoot that way to that extreme like he does but it has seemingly kept him in the league all this time.

                        Id love to see a really smart guy with lots of money completely and totally analyze the jump shot in a kinesiology department somewhere, and provide more physical data on what I think I believe but no one else does as yet.

                        Tbird
                        I think that Bill Bradley shot the ball in the manner that you are talking about, and if I remember correctly, he shot the ball at a high percentage. Rick Mount is another player that I thought had excellent form and range.

                        I think that the jumpshot changed the game of basketball, more than anything else did in my lifetime. The Big O, was one of the first players to utilize the jumpshot and this took the game from the stop and shoot the set shot, to the fast paced game that we see today. The hook shot, also disappeard from the game, with the onset of the jumpshot, with the exception being Kareem, and his was of the sky hook variety, not the long sweeping style.

                        I also think that kids tend to develop bad habits in their shooting form, by trying to shoot the jumpshot to early in their development. The adjustable goal is a must for younger kids trying to develop good shooting form, trying to shoot at a ten foot goal to soon, leads to heaving the ball up, rather that shooting it with good form. Bad shooting habits are hard to correct and are best avoided if at all possible.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

                          Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                          From what I hear Dunleavy is a gym rat
                          Well, that takes care of that angle.
                          .

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

                            Originally posted by Elgin56 View Post
                            I think that Bill Bradley shot the ball in the manner that you are talking about, and if I remember correctly, he shot the ball at a high percentage. Rick Mount is another player that I thought had excellent form and range.

                            I think that the jumpshot changed the game of basketball, more than anything else did in my lifetime. The Big O, was one of the first players to utilize the jumpshot and this took the game from the stop and shoot the set shot, to the fast paced game that we see today. The hook shot, also disappeard from the game, with the onset of the jumpshot, with the exception being Kareem, and his was of the sky hook variety, not the long sweeping style.

                            I also think that kids tend to develop bad habits in their shooting form, by trying to shoot the jumpshot to early in their development. The adjustable goal is a must for younger kids trying to develop good shooting form, trying to shoot at a ten foot goal to soon, leads to heaving the ball up, rather that shooting it with good form. Bad shooting habits are hard to correct and are best avoided if at all possible.

                            Going off topic, but here is a funny story about Rick Mount.

                            As some of you might know, Rick Mount out of Lebanon high school is considered by basketball experts to be one of the top 5 or 10 "pure shooters" in basketball history. He played at Purdue collegiately and had some years in the pro level as well. All of that was years ago way before most of you were either born or paying attention. I of course was too young to have seen him play either, but were told the legend of his shooting greatness by my uncles and my dad.

                            Anyway, fast forward 25 yrs or so past his prime, and Im at a basketball camp with some junior high age kids in the summer time with about 40 other programs up in the northern part of the state. As part of the camp we had guest speakers each morning, and on this day it was Rick Mount, who was there to speak, give a shooting clinic, and sign some autographs ( he thought).

                            So, these kids are 13 yrs old or so, and could give a rats *** about Rick Mount, who theyve never heard of....to them he's just some old guy who is talking instead of letting them play. Most of the kids are respectfully listening however, as Mount painstakingly went thru the jump shot in excrutiating detail, in a gym about 95 degrees in the middle of summer.

                            About 30 minutes into this, and Mount has talked the entire time without taking a shot, and so far has refused to take questions from the kids either. Finally its over, and one of the counselors innocently asks him to give a shooting display himself, to demonstrate all that he has droned on about for the last 45 minutes to this gyn full of kids. After some prodding he finally agreed to shoot while teaching one of the better kids to shoot along side him.

                            The kid chosen is a pretty good player to start with, and hits a few jumpers in a row while Mount comments. Then after a few misses, Mount tells the kid to sit down while he shoots and shows them how its done.

                            Unfortunatly , Mount couldnt buy a basket, and missed something like 5 perimeter shots in a row and looked bad doing it, all the while getting angrier and angrier. Meanwhile, the kids all start to giggle, because they all thought this old guy was too full of himself anyway.

                            After about 15 misses in a row, Mount slammed the ball down and left in a stream of cusswords a sailor might say, while 300 kids sat and giggled. Us counselors and coaches were just sort of in shock and didnt know what to say. Finally, not knowing whether to be mad at the kids or not, the leader of the camp (A prominent high school coach in Indiana still coaching) finally grinned at the old mans vanity and said "aw hell, lets just play".

                            I guess you just had to be there.

                            Back to regular programming now.......

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

                              His shot looks good to me... I wonder if he doesn't truly believe his shot will go in. Mechanics are nice for young guys who are still developing, but Jr. is in the prime of his career and I don't think changing his stroke now would help him at all...

                              I think it is more of a psychological thing. At least when I watch him shoot, I am surprised when it goes in... Same with Stephen Jackson. I wonder if they feel that way too. I think so much of making your shots is focus and confidence along with repetition vs mechanics, at least at his age.

                              Maybe Jr. is working on his shot 6 hours a day, I hope he is. He needs to if he isn't. I mean if there is a guy on the team that is shooting a jumpshot under 40% he needs to be in a gym working on that jumpshot every spare minute.

                              Comment

                              Previous 1 2 3 template Next
                              Working...
                              X