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Thread: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

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    Default Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Shooting is such a delicate thing. We all recognize that Dunleavy is about a 44% lifetime shooter, and that he is near that with us. Lots of people seem surprised by his struggles from the perimeter, as he generally takes good shots that are open, has good size to see over defenders, and doesnt have any obvious reasons why he shouldnt be a better shooter. The fact remains however that for his entire career he has struggled with his shot accuracy....the question I want to pose today is why, and what some possible solutions might be.

    Some coaches at higher levels firmly believe that a person's jump shot, much like a quarterbacks throwing motion or a pitchers windup in baseball, shouldnt be tampered much, since its obviously been effective enough to get them to this point. Sometimes the solutions to a problem can be more problematic than the original issue that was trying to be solved. I can only wonder if Dunleavy's pro coaches have been of that type, because clearly with his pedigree, Dunleavy you would think would be a better shooter than he is in reality.

    Shooting can be so much mental, and then again so much fundamentals....there is no reason why Dunleavy should have mental issues I dont believe, so Ive been really really watching him (along with a couple of other coaching friends of mine who I talk to) just to see if we see anything in his delivery or shot that makes him miss more than he should. First of all, a couple of observations:

    1. Dunleavy takes good shots: He rarely forces a bad jumper, isnt asked to make bailout plays against the shot clock, and is usually not the focal point of the opponents defense. Its these mitigating factors that really got me to really study all aspects of his shot to see if I saw anything....He SHOULD BE BETTER, but his track record says he isn't....he intrigues the coach in me.

    2. The Pacers are not generally one of the teams who believe in letting a guy shoot the way he shoots, even if it's wrong. Carlisle and Bird both really helped develop jump shots of Austin Croshere and Mark Jackson...AC by getting his elbow consistently underneath the ball, and getting Jax to step into his shot more and use his legs. Each became a better shooter than they were when this staff got in place.

    OK, so what is it with Dunleavy? From our vantage points in person a couple of times and on video, my friends and I see the following areas of adjustment that the Pacers can make IN THE OFFSEASON to work on Dunleavy's accuracy.

    A: Hand position: I can't completely tell from video, but I have read and have come to the conclusion that Dunleavy has larger than average hands, relative to the size of the rest of his body. Particularly I think he has really long fingers. This matters in a jump shooter because if you shoot with your hand totally stretched out it disrupts the spin of the ball, if your hands are too stretched....it also makes you get too much of the palm and base of your hand onto the ball, throwing off your accuracy slightly.
    SOLUTION IF THIS IS RIGHT: Pull in your fingers slightly, and really emphasize getting the ball onto your fingertips. You need to "shrink" up your shooting hand in other words....There are drills for this that are common to the game, but if this is right he'll need lots of drill work in the summer to try and break that habit or tendency.

    B: Ball position: I think this is an issue Bird particularly can help him with in the offseason. Dunleavy doesnt hold the ball in a particularly bad spot for his release, but in my judgment he holds it too low and too in front of his face, possibly even blocking his own vision when shooting slightly. This is a fairly common problem that happens to players early in their development sometimes. Average shooters hold it this way, but the great shooters don't.
    SOLUTION IF THIS IS RIGHT: A total revamp of his release point on his shot, but more than that a complete revamp of where Dunleavy holds the ball as he is "cocking" for the shot. My visions for this are 2 players: Larry Bird and Dirk Nowitzki, who both hold the ball before the shot is actually released to the side of their heads, higher in the air than Dunleavy does. What Im saying is....Dunleavy needs to get his arms out of the way of his head so he can release the ball higher and in a more consistent way. This is going to take repetitive shooting, a mental commitment to change, and lots of video work.....and it carries a risk of backfiring if he cant handle the change.

    C. Vision issues. I have no idea of Dunleavy's medicals....but I sometimes see him on the floor and wonder how his vision is. I wonder if just an old fashioned eye exam might help.
    SOLUTION IF RIGHT: Laser vision surgery.

    D. Conditioning issues: One friend of mine watches Dunleavy and doesnt think he is in optimal great shape, which hurts his concentration and takes his legs from him at times. This person thinks his shootig form, while not totally perfect, would be solved simply be getting Junior in better physical condition....and he questions whether Dunleavy has the drive to make that happen after earning his payday already.
    SOLUTION IF RIGHT: Pacers need to hire a personal trainer, keep Dunleavy in Indianapolis all summer, and try and "coach him up" all summer. It also might help to publically call him out, raise the stakes and put some pressure on Dunleavy to be as good a player as it seems like he should be based on his talent, size, and pedigree.

    For those of you who watch the game with a critical eye, Id love for us to watch Dunleavy and really analyze his shot technique and see if we see something in it that I didnt mention. Id love to hear opinions on what we think the problem is. Im not prepared yet to say Dunleavy is as bad a shooter as his career numbers suggest, and I know his game is an ultimate conundrem for the Pacers staff. I also know that the Pacers are fiming everyone of Dunleavy's shots in practices and games with a camera isolated on him to try and do the same thing my friends and I took on just for fun....what does Pacersdigest see ?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    I can't see why he's missing his shots, at all. His form is so consistent, and looks good with every shot.

    I've heard a few people mention lateral movement when he jumps, and I've seen a little of it. And, when he misses, he's usually off to a side, not short or long. It's just so odd because he has total control of his shot.


    Good thread, and I'm interested in reading what other people see. There has to be something visible, but I can't see it.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I can't see why he's missing his shots, at all. His form is so consistent, and looks good with every shot.

    I've heard a few people mention lateral movement when he jumps, and I've seen a little of it. And, when he misses, he's usually off to a side, not short or long. It's just so odd because he has total control of his shot.


    Good thread, and I'm interested in reading what other people see. There has to be something visible, but I can't see it.

    I will say this...if there is one thing that the Pacers current staff of people should be able to help a player with, its shooting form. On the other hand, Chris Mullin didnt help Dunleavy much apparently, so I wonder about Bird.

    I can totally understand "drifting" or "leaning" during a shot, because as a high school player who wasnt that good I had that particular weakness myself....for some reason I tended to lean to the left when shooting and had to always fight that. Of course, I was 6'2, slow as molasses and couldnt jump over a sheet of paper, so it wasnt my only problem lol.

    One other question as I think about this: Assuming that RC or Bird or Chuck Person or whomever DOES find a solution and is able to help Dunleavy shoot better, do you think anyone will publically state that or take credit for it? Should they or should they not announce it thru the media to all of us big time fans?

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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I can't see why he's missing his shots, at all. His form is so consistent, and looks good with every shot.

    I've heard a few people mention lateral movement when he jumps, and I've seen a little of it. And, when he misses, he's usually off to a side, not short or long. It's just so odd because he has total control of his shot.


    Good thread, and I'm interested in reading what other people see. There has to be something visible, but I can't see it.

    I also have noticed that Dun does seem to move lateraly when he jumps to shoot. Moving to one side or the another adds another element in shooting the ball that isn't neccessary. JO's shooting problems are similar, only he fades away with his shot, adding more difficulty to the shot. The more movement in the shooting form, either laterally or fading away adds to the difficulty, and therefore is not conducive to high shooting percentages. Dun seems to rush his shots also, adding to his lateral moving problem.

    I agree with you, this is a good thread.

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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    When Mike misses he misses badly usually clanging off the rim left or right. What I see is sometimes he releases the ball too low, sometimes too far to the right, almost from his right ear area.

    I heard Rick Carlisle talking about this and he said the coaching staff is really working with Mike on releasing the ball at the same point every time and also stepping into his threes.

    Even if his shooting doesn't really improve, I'm not concerned because I really like his overall game. He has great basketball instincts and a great basketball IQ (and those are two different things). Tinsley for example has great instincts but poor IQ.

    If you were to tell me that Mike was going to play the rest of his career as a Pacer, I'd be happy. But he needs to be a role player, certainly not the 1st or 2nd option. Offensively Mike reminds me of Derrick McKey - just extremely smart.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    This is true. I also want to add to the list of players we've helped with shooting; Al Harrington and Fred Jones.

    The amount of progress Al made with his shot here is remarkable, and Fred Jones greatly improved. I never thought Al would have the shot he has now, especially after his first two seasons, so it gives me hope for someone like Orien Greene, a player who sounds willing to work hard at his game.

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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    I think my biggest problem with Dunleavy is that I kind of hoped that he would be Mike Miller part 2. But he doesn't have that kind of range, or consistency. He's ok, though. He's not pure, but he is a threat.

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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Elgin56 View Post
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    I also have noticed that Dun does seem to move lateraly when he jumps to shoot. Moving to one side or the another adds another element in shooting the ball that isn't neccessary. JO's shooting problems are similar, only he fades away with his shot, adding more difficulty to the shot. The more movement in the shooting form, either laterally or fading away adds to the difficulty, and therefore is not conducive to high shooting percentaces. Dun seems to rush his shots also, adding to his lateral moving problem.

    I agree with you, this is a good thread.
    I kind of want to piggyback on your comments about JO. There is a sort of awkwardness to Jermaine's form, which I think contributes to some bad misses for him. I don't think his fg% is all that high for a post player.

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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnybegood View Post
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    I think my biggest problem with Dunleavy is that I kind of hoped that he would be Mike Miller part 2. But he doesn't have that kind of range, or consistency. He's ok, though. He's not pure, but he is a threat.

    Well, obviously this is true....but my question is why? There is absolutley nothing in Dunleavy's background, work ethic, or style of play that says he shouldnt be as good or better than Mike Miller as a perimeter shooter, yet he clearly isnt. Im not ready to just write off Dunleavy and just accept his medicre jump shooting numbers, when he clearly in my judgment should be better than that.

    Going up to what UB wrote about Dunleavy's release point being inconsistent, that leads me to ask all of you if thats true, where exactly do we want it to be?

    I ask that because in my judgment, nothing in basketball is coached as poorly and taught so incorrectly at all levels of basketball than shooting form. For years, at almost every camp and at every level, the basics of shooting are basically taught the same way, and generally shooting accuracy hasnt improved much over the years.

    Generally, the truly great shooters of our era (Nowitzki and Bird are again who Im using for an example) held the ball much more to the side and higher than is taught by most instructors and coaches. These 2 players also use/used their legs less than alot of players do, although I know their size has alot to do with that.

    To illustrate what I mean, try and visualize standing directly behind most players as they take a perimeter shot, and then try and visualize standing behind Dirk or Bird. Can you see differences in your mind? Those 2 guys hold the ball much more elevated, and much more TO THE RIGHT than most players, which I think helped keep their elbow inside but more importantly helped their vision of the goal.

    All of you reading this should go grab a basketball and try and "gather" themselves for the shot....can you see your target clearly the way you are holding the ball? Most people can't in reality, because either the ball itself or your arms partially block your view. Am I right?

    When you hold the ball in the more traditional way, you either have to look "underneath" the ball to see the rim at the top of your jump, or hold the ball low enough to see over it. Each of these techniques have issues of timing and defense to overcome to make a shot....its just plain easier in my opinion to hold the ball more to the side of your head and high than directly in front of you......even though that is not the way its taught yet anywhere that Im aware of.

    Croshere when joining the Pacers had some issues with his release point and this very problem.....he couldnt hold the ball in such a way that he could clearly see what he was shooting at. However, he struggled with the "side saddle" aproach that I personally am advocating, so the Pacers unique solution was to have him move the ball LEFTWARD, acros his face, and aim and fire with his head to the right of the ball. Ive never seen anyone else shoot that way to that extreme like he does but it has seemingly kept him in the league all this time.

    Id love to see a really smart guy with lots of money completely and totally analyze the jump shot in a kinesiology department somewhere, and provide more physical data on what I think I believe but no one else does as yet.

    Tbird

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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    I will say this...if there is one thing that the Pacers current staff of people should be able to help a player with, its shooting form. On the other hand, Chris Mullin didnt help Dunleavy much apparently, so I wonder about Bird.

    I can totally understand "drifting" or "leaning" during a shot, because as a high school player who wasnt that good I had that particular weakness myself....for some reason I tended to lean to the left when shooting and had to always fight that. Of course, I was 6'2, slow as molasses and couldnt jump over a sheet of paper, so it wasnt my only problem lol.

    One other question as I think about this: Assuming that RC or Bird or Chuck Person or whomever DOES find a solution and is able to help Dunleavy shoot better, do you think anyone will publically state that or take credit for it? Should they or should they not announce it thru the media to all of us big time fans?

    I don't know about Dun's work ethics but what made Mully and Bird such good shooters were that they were gym rats. Maybe Dun just needs to shoot a few hundred shots, daily as Bird and Mully did.
    .

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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    From what I hear Dunleavy is a gym rat

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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    Well, obviously this is true....but my question is why? There is absolutley nothing in Dunleavy's background, work ethic, or style of play that says he shouldnt be as good or better than Mike Miller as a perimeter shooter, yet he clearly isnt. Im not ready to just write off Dunleavy and just accept his medicre jump shooting numbers, when he clearly in my judgment should be better than that.

    Going up to what UB wrote about Dunleavy's release point being inconsistent, that leads me to ask all of you if thats true, where exactly do we want it to be?

    I ask that because in my judgment, nothing in basketball is coached as poorly and taught so incorrectly at all levels of basketball than shooting form. For years, at almost every camp and at every level, the basics of shooting are basically taught the same way, and generally shooting accuracy hasnt improved much over the years.

    Generally, the truly great shooters of our era (Nowitzki and Bird are again who Im using for an example) held the ball much more to the side and higher than is taught by most instructors and coaches. These 2 players also use/used their legs less than alot of players do, although I know their size has alot to do with that.

    To illustrate what I mean, try and visualize standing directly behind most players as they take a perimeter shot, and then try and visualize standing behind Dirk or Bird. Can you see differences in your mind? Those 2 guys hold the ball much more elevated, and much more TO THE RIGHT than most players, which I think helped keep their elbow inside but more importantly helped their vision of the goal.

    All of you reading this should go grab a basketball and try and "gather" themselves for the shot....can you see your target clearly the way you are holding the ball? Most people can't in reality, because either the ball itself or your arms partially block your view. Am I right?

    When you hold the ball in the more traditional way, you either have to look "underneath" the ball to see the rim at the top of your jump, or hold the ball low enough to see over it. Each of these techniques have issues of timing and defense to overcome to make a shot....its just plain easier in my opinion to hold the ball more to the side of your head and high than directly in front of you......even though that is not the way its taught yet anywhere that Im aware of.

    Croshere when joining the Pacers had some issues with his release point and this very problem.....he couldnt hold the ball in such a way that he could clearly see what he was shooting at. However, he struggled with the "side saddle" aproach that I personally am advocating, so the Pacers unique solution was to have him move the ball LEFTWARD, acros his face, and aim and fire with his head to the right of the ball. Ive never seen anyone else shoot that way to that extreme like he does but it has seemingly kept him in the league all this time.

    Id love to see a really smart guy with lots of money completely and totally analyze the jump shot in a kinesiology department somewhere, and provide more physical data on what I think I believe but no one else does as yet.

    Tbird
    I think that Bill Bradley shot the ball in the manner that you are talking about, and if I remember correctly, he shot the ball at a high percentage. Rick Mount is another player that I thought had excellent form and range.

    I think that the jumpshot changed the game of basketball, more than anything else did in my lifetime. The Big O, was one of the first players to utilize the jumpshot and this took the game from the stop and shoot the set shot, to the fast paced game that we see today. The hook shot, also disappeard from the game, with the onset of the jumpshot, with the exception being Kareem, and his was of the sky hook variety, not the long sweeping style.

    I also think that kids tend to develop bad habits in their shooting form, by trying to shoot the jumpshot to early in their development. The adjustable goal is a must for younger kids trying to develop good shooting form, trying to shoot at a ten foot goal to soon, leads to heaving the ball up, rather that shooting it with good form. Bad shooting habits are hard to correct and are best avoided if at all possible.

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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    From what I hear Dunleavy is a gym rat
    Well, that takes care of that angle.
    .

  14. #14

    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Elgin56 View Post
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    I think that Bill Bradley shot the ball in the manner that you are talking about, and if I remember correctly, he shot the ball at a high percentage. Rick Mount is another player that I thought had excellent form and range.

    I think that the jumpshot changed the game of basketball, more than anything else did in my lifetime. The Big O, was one of the first players to utilize the jumpshot and this took the game from the stop and shoot the set shot, to the fast paced game that we see today. The hook shot, also disappeard from the game, with the onset of the jumpshot, with the exception being Kareem, and his was of the sky hook variety, not the long sweeping style.

    I also think that kids tend to develop bad habits in their shooting form, by trying to shoot the jumpshot to early in their development. The adjustable goal is a must for younger kids trying to develop good shooting form, trying to shoot at a ten foot goal to soon, leads to heaving the ball up, rather that shooting it with good form. Bad shooting habits are hard to correct and are best avoided if at all possible.

    Going off topic, but here is a funny story about Rick Mount.

    As some of you might know, Rick Mount out of Lebanon high school is considered by basketball experts to be one of the top 5 or 10 "pure shooters" in basketball history. He played at Purdue collegiately and had some years in the pro level as well. All of that was years ago way before most of you were either born or paying attention. I of course was too young to have seen him play either, but were told the legend of his shooting greatness by my uncles and my dad.

    Anyway, fast forward 25 yrs or so past his prime, and Im at a basketball camp with some junior high age kids in the summer time with about 40 other programs up in the northern part of the state. As part of the camp we had guest speakers each morning, and on this day it was Rick Mount, who was there to speak, give a shooting clinic, and sign some autographs ( he thought).

    So, these kids are 13 yrs old or so, and could give a rats *** about Rick Mount, who theyve never heard of....to them he's just some old guy who is talking instead of letting them play. Most of the kids are respectfully listening however, as Mount painstakingly went thru the jump shot in excrutiating detail, in a gym about 95 degrees in the middle of summer.

    About 30 minutes into this, and Mount has talked the entire time without taking a shot, and so far has refused to take questions from the kids either. Finally its over, and one of the counselors innocently asks him to give a shooting display himself, to demonstrate all that he has droned on about for the last 45 minutes to this gyn full of kids. After some prodding he finally agreed to shoot while teaching one of the better kids to shoot along side him.

    The kid chosen is a pretty good player to start with, and hits a few jumpers in a row while Mount comments. Then after a few misses, Mount tells the kid to sit down while he shoots and shows them how its done.

    Unfortunatly , Mount couldnt buy a basket, and missed something like 5 perimeter shots in a row and looked bad doing it, all the while getting angrier and angrier. Meanwhile, the kids all start to giggle, because they all thought this old guy was too full of himself anyway.

    After about 15 misses in a row, Mount slammed the ball down and left in a stream of cusswords a sailor might say, while 300 kids sat and giggled. Us counselors and coaches were just sort of in shock and didnt know what to say. Finally, not knowing whether to be mad at the kids or not, the leader of the camp (A prominent high school coach in Indiana still coaching) finally grinned at the old mans vanity and said "aw hell, lets just play".

    I guess you just had to be there.

    Back to regular programming now.......

  15. #15

    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    His shot looks good to me... I wonder if he doesn't truly believe his shot will go in. Mechanics are nice for young guys who are still developing, but Jr. is in the prime of his career and I don't think changing his stroke now would help him at all...

    I think it is more of a psychological thing. At least when I watch him shoot, I am surprised when it goes in... Same with Stephen Jackson. I wonder if they feel that way too. I think so much of making your shots is focus and confidence along with repetition vs mechanics, at least at his age.

    Maybe Jr. is working on his shot 6 hours a day, I hope he is. He needs to if he isn't. I mean if there is a guy on the team that is shooting a jumpshot under 40% he needs to be in a gym working on that jumpshot every spare minute.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    Going off topic, but here is a funny story about Rick Mount.

    As some of you might know, Rick Mount out of Lebanon high school is considered by basketball experts to be one of the top 5 or 10 "pure shooters" in basketball history. He played at Purdue collegiately and had some years in the pro level as well. All of that was years ago way before most of you were either born or paying attention. I of course was too young to have seen him play either, but were told the legend of his shooting greatness by my uncles and my dad.

    Anyway, fast forward 25 yrs or so past his prime, and Im at a basketball camp with some junior high age kids in the summer time with about 40 other programs up in the northern part of the state. As part of the camp we had guest speakers each morning, and on this day it was Rick Mount, who was there to speak, give a shooting clinic, and sign some autographs ( he thought).

    So, these kids are 13 yrs old or so, and could give a rats *** about Rick Mount, who theyve never heard of....to them he's just some old guy who is talking instead of letting them play. Most of the kids are respectfully listening however, as Mount painstakingly went thru the jump shot in excrutiating detail, in a gym about 95 degrees in the middle of summer.

    About 30 minutes into this, and Mount has talked the entire time without taking a shot, and so far has refused to take questions from the kids either. Finally its over, and one of the counselors innocently asks him to give a shooting display himself, to demonstrate all that he has droned on about for the last 45 minutes to this gyn full of kids. After some prodding he finally agreed to shoot while teaching one of the better kids to shoot along side him.

    The kid chosen is a pretty good player to start with, and hits a few jumpers in a row while Mount comments. Then after a few misses, Mount tells the kid to sit down while he shoots and shows them how its done.

    Unfortunatly , Mount couldnt buy a basket, and missed something like 5 perimeter shots in a row and looked bad doing it, all the while getting angrier and angrier. Meanwhile, the kids all start to giggle, because they all thought this old guy was too full of himself anyway.

    After about 15 misses in a row, Mount slammed the ball down and left in a stream of cusswords a sailor might say, while 300 kids sat and giggled. Us counselors and coaches were just sort of in shock and didnt know what to say. Finally, not knowing whether to be mad at the kids or not, the leader of the camp (A prominent high school coach in Indiana still coaching) finally grinned at the old mans vanity and said "aw hell, lets just play".

    I guess you just had to be there.

    Back to regular programming now.......
    HAHA! That is a great story man...
    I was at a basketball camp too with Rick Mount giving shooting instructions. Taylor U basketball camp I think. I don't recall him swearing like a sailor though.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Burtrem Redneck View Post
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    His shot looks good to me... I wonder if he doesn't truly believe his shot will go in. Mechanics are nice for young guys who are still developing, but Jr. is in the prime of his career and I don't think changing his stroke now would help him at all...

    I think it is more of a psychological thing. At least when I watch him shoot, I am surprised when it goes in... Same with Stephen Jackson. I wonder if they feel that way too. I think so much of making your shots is focus and confidence along with repetition vs mechanics, at least at his age.

    Maybe Jr. is working on his shot 6 hours a day, I hope he is. He needs to if he isn't. I mean if there is a guy on the team that is shooting a jumpshot under 40% he needs to be in a gym working on that jumpshot every spare minute.
    It COULD be psychological I suppose.....possibly years of being in Golden State and being under the burden of being such a high pick has lowered his "confidence" (no need to rehash that old argument from last summer lol). I just think it is more likely to be mechanical than psychological in this case...I have a hard time thinking Dunleavy is that mentally weak.

    I watched another video for a few minutes looking for evidence of Dunleavy drifting on his shot, and for the few minutes I spent doing that I didnt see any....doesnt mean he isnt doing it, just that I didnt notice any. Next game I and some of you who watch for such things will have to watch Dunleavy after his release instead of watching the flight of the ball to see if something is apparent.....

    A friend of mine who read this thread earlier wanted me to post his theory, which as yet I havent seen posted on here or noticed myself, which is that Dunleavy may be "pinching" his fingers together (closing his hand) during his follow thru instead of keeping his fingers apart and spread in the classic follow through all of us in Indiana grew up with.....if anyone else has noticed this please inform us.

    The most horrible and uncorrectable problem would be if Dunleavy has a different problem or flaw in each shot attempt.....that would make it almost imposible to improve, as the solution would have to be to totally rebuild his shot from scratch....and he is unlikely to do that. That might make sense in explaining why he has shot poorly for this long of a stretch of time for all these seasons in the NBA.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Geezer also has a "Rick Mount acting like a jerk" story, something about refusing to sign autographs.

    Seeing Rick Mount shoot, and in general seeing Pete Maravich play on Saturday afternoon SEC games on channel 3 out of Louisville, made me fall in love with basketball before I started 1st grade.

    I must have been quite a nerdy 5-6 year old, watching entire basketball games and trying to copy Mount's form. I remember him dropping 61 points on Iowa, before the shot clock and before the 3-point line. More than 15 of his 2-pointers would have been 3-pointers that day.

    On the topic, I have noticed the sideways drift, the inconsistent release point, and perhaps "too much palm" in his shots. The longish stroke, or distance from shot initiation to release, hurts him. Like hitting a golf ball, when shooting a basketball, big guys have more things to go wrong and the longer the stroke the less consistent are the results. Most good shooting big guys have a wristy shot (less arm movement & less leg push), an overall more compact stroke that is easier to replicate again and again.

    I'm not sure if someone who has shot that way for so long can overcome that muscle memory at this point.

    Shooting a basketball has always been a passion of mine. As a teen I was in the "NBA hot shots" and lost in my age group to a cocky younger kid from the northern part of the state... Scott Skiles. I think that the overall champion in my age group was Terry Gannon, who was a sharpshooter at NC State for Jim Valvano. Just an awesome stroke.

    My shooting talents have pretty much been wasted except for amassing my kids impressive collection of stuffed animals from the ball shoot at midways in state fairs and theme parks.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    It COULD be psychological I suppose.....possibly years of being in Golden State and being under the burden of being such a high pick has lowered his "confidence" (no need to rehash that old argument from last summer lol). I just think it is more likely to be mechanical than psychological in this case...I have a hard time thinking Dunleavy is that mentally weak.

    I watched another video for a few minutes looking for evidence of Dunleavy drifting on his shot, and for the few minutes I spent doing that I didnt see any....doesnt mean he isnt doing it, just that I didnt notice any. Next game I and some of you who watch for such things will have to watch Dunleavy after his release instead of watching the flight of the ball to see if something is apparent.....

    A friend of mine who read this thread earlier wanted me to post his theory, which as yet I havent seen posted on here or noticed myself, which is that Dunleavy may be "pinching" his fingers together (closing his hand) during his follow thru instead of keeping his fingers apart and spread in the classic follow through all of us in Indiana grew up with.....if anyone else has noticed this please inform us.

    The most horrible and uncorrectable problem would be if Dunleavy has a different problem or flaw in each shot attempt.....that would make it almost imposible to improve, as the solution would have to be to totally rebuild his shot from scratch....and he is unlikely to do that. That might make sense in explaining why he has shot poorly for this long of a stretch of time for all these seasons in the NBA.
    I tend to agree with the psychological angle. I compare it to a golfer with the yips. Sometimes an open 3-ball literally hooks a little bit and misses badly. I can't help but think the last thing that goes through his mind as the ball is released isn't positive.
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Mike really is a guy who has great work ethics, i remember he came in his rookie year and musselman just benched him, then he just didnt progress that much, then his 2nd year, he was doing pretty decent showing what he could bring to the table.

    his 3rd year, the caches told him to be stronger on the muscle side, so he worked out a lot,and actually got some muscle on him and i think this hurt his shooting a bit, as anyone that plays basketball and worksout upper body can affect the way you shoot a little bit

    last season, i remember him talking about a shooting coach before the end of the season, i suggested on a warriors forum for a guy like Chip Engelund, but spurs already got him, so i don't know where he went, but beginning of the season, with that new ball, mike was actually shooting better than last season, then this year he is subpar 50percent almost there

    i think the reason is, His shot is a push shot, not a jumpshot, he pushes the ball, its easier to shoot like that cuz i do, but i just don't know whats the problem, i think its bad luck, lol jk on that but seriously, back in Duke, the guy could seriously shoot the ball, he did like a Reggie impersonation back then, when he scored a bunch of points in a quick amount of time

    I see him as a better mike miller, but the guy really does not have that same scorer mentality, i mean mike miller, has no conscience, he;ll fire it up wit 2 guys around him, but MIke miller is quicker than him.

    Another thing to point out is that, Pacers have been using Mike DUnleavy as a 2 guard, i never really expected someone to use him on that position, but apparently it works

    with that lineup, i think thats pretty big for a 2 guard and a 3 man,

    DUnleavy 6'9 and plays shooting guard.. wow. haha
    [SIGPIC]Dun Dun shooting form![/SIGPIC]

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    SOLUTION IF THIS IS RIGHT: A total revamp of his release point on his shot, but more than that a complete revamp of where Dunleavy holds the ball as he is "cocking" for the shot. My visions for this are 2 players: Larry Bird and Dirk Nowitzki, who both hold the ball before the shot is actually released to the side of their heads, higher in the air than Dunleavy does. What Im saying is....Dunleavy needs to get his arms out of the way of his head so he can release the ball higher and in a more consistent way. This is going to take repetitive shooting, a mental commitment to change, and lots of video work.....and it carries a risk of backfiring if he cant handle the change.
    Just to illustrate your point:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaPhydUU9Ws

    Just still Dunleavy down and have him continually watch Bird shoot the ball.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Given Carlisle's huge playbook that's roughly the size of the NY Yellow Pages....I'm wondering if Dunleavy and Murphy would benefit with going through an entire season including going through training camp and preseason games with Carlisle ( assuming that he is still here in the 2007 offseason ).

    Does training camp make a huge difference when it comes to players assimilation into the team's offense?

    I'm guessing that during the Summer and training camp...they have more opportunity to train and work on these type of mechanics.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    From what I hear Dunleavy is a gym rat
    Where'd you hear that?

  24. #24

    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    I heard that too.
    Maceo Baston's #1 fan on Pacers Digest!

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    Default Re: Finding solutions: Mike Dunleavy's perimeter shot

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Given Carlisle's huge playbook that's roughly the size of the NY Yellow Pages....I'm wondering if Dunleavy and Murphy would benefit with going through an entire season including going through training camp and preseason games with Carlisle ( assuming that he is still here in the 2007 offseason ).

    Does training camp make a huge difference when it comes to players assimilation into the team's offense?

    I'm guessing that during the Summer and training camp...they have more opportunity to train and work on these type of mechanics.

    It makes a huge difference. That is when all the offense is put in and more importantly that is when the defensive concepts are put in and practiced. During the season you can add stuff, but you are always playing games and only have enough practice time to put a band aid on things.

    I've often said the most important time of the year for NBA teams in the first week in October - training camp before the first preseason game.

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