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Thread: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

  1. #26
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    some people say we need to go fast, but i don't think that is really something we can blame on rick because that really doesn't play to the strength of our star player. and it really doesn't work with the team we have right now. the problem is, our offensive style works best when it is teamed with what most of us know as solid and reliable pacer defense. uptempo works when you have the right players, otherwise you get memphis or golden state.

    unless JVG (who is someone who i like as a coach) chooses to move from houston to another team, he's not leaving. he has kept this team afloat this year despite injuries to Yao and Tracy. so he's proved his worth and Houston unless we get a Chargers-Marty type situation won't want to lose him. SVG is more likely. rick adelman is an uptempo coach true but how can you play that style with tinsley, dunleavy, murphy and oneal? or ike? im not even sure how danny would be in that type of style but i think he shows more promise than those guys. this team was supposed to be an uptempo team when we had Al Sjax and SarJas. not anymore. we can't do it. which means we've got to learn defense. i also can't think of an available coach i'd love to have.

    im not ready to give up on rick yet. he has yet to have a losing season DESPITE everything pacer players have put him thru (brawls, injuries, clubbing). i dont think things are working and i believe he needs to adjust his method BUT i also don't think any other coach would be doing better with the team we have. so i don't blame rick for that.
    This is the darkest timeline.

  2. #27
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.ThunderMakeR View Post
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    I can't believe everyone is turning on Carlisle now, even UB.

    The guy hasn't been given a decent team to coach for 3 years, what do you expect him to do with these players. Making the playoffs and being eliminated in the 1st or 2nd is about as much as you can expect from this roster and no coach could make them contenders.

    And I don't think any coach would have a dramatic effect on ticket sales. Its not like bringing in some superstart player; the average non-obssevie fan is not going to be impressed by a new coach unless they start winning a lot.


    I'm not turning on anyone. But I'm extremely concerned about the team defense and as I've stated team defense is coaching. Next chance you get watch the Rockets or the Spurs and even the Bulls play team defense - watch how they help and recover, how they help each other, how they all move in unison almost like they are on a string. the Pacers are about 5 notches below those three teams in team defense and for that I blame the coaching staff.


    It seems like JO coming over to block the shot after we get beat on the perimeter is the only team defense we have

  3. #28
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    As much as I feel Rick's days here should be numbered, firing him now would not help the team in any way.

    But at some point, you have to realize that we've nearly completely turned over the roster and the results are still the same.

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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Rick won't be fired, but I'd bet on him going into the Front Office after the season. Think about it, this was going to be his last season as a coach here before he got the extension and title of "Executive Vice President of Basketball Operations". I think that was a way of Walsh, Bird, the Simons (or whoever gave Carlisle the title) of saying "This is your last chance at coaching. As a reward for what you have done for this franchise given all the controversy, we'll let you work in the front office". It was the only thing Bird could do to avoid facing the decision to fire his boy. If Carlisle is in the front office, it'll be the Simons job to fire Carlisle, not Bird. Be surprised if Carlisle is our coach next season.

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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    As much as I feel Rick's days here should be numbered, firing him now would not help the team in any way.

    But at some point, you have to realize that we've nearly completely turned over the roster and the results are still the same.
    okay the roster has changed but are the players any better?

    and eezy - you don't think rick would be offered another head coaching job if he leaves the pacers or the pacers fire him? i can think of a ton of teams that would love to have a coach that good. how about boston or charlotte or seattle? don't you think they'd enjoy a nonlosing season?
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    and eezy - you don't think rick would be offered another head coaching job if he leaves the pacers or the pacers fire him? i can think of a ton of teams that would love to have a coach that good. how about boston or charlotte or seattle? don't you think they'd enjoy a nonlosing season?
    No because the Pacers aren't going to fire him. They're going to "Promote Him" to the front office.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    so you don't think rick wants to coach?

    EDIT: you don't think if a team called carlisle up and said "Let us know when you're looking for your next job..."


    Atlanta - They'd kill for anyone minimally competent as a coach, but that'd require Hawks to make a reasonable and logical decision. The jury is still out on that happening, not sure Rick would want that job, though they have some promise.
    Boston - If it comes down to Danny Ainge or Doc Rivers, I think Doc would lose out. Ainge brings in part of the Celtic lore to revive the team. Seems possible. More promise than not ESPECIALLY with the draft.
    Charlotte - They seem to like Tar Heels here. But Bickerstaff is wanting out and Bobcats want him out. Larry Brown seems most likely but Carlisle would still be a top candidate. charlotte has a lot of promise

    Chicago - Nope.
    Cleveland - Ferry will go before Brown. Nope.
    Dallas - ummm i'm thinking they're gonna stick with their guy.
    Denver -george karl is probably safe.
    Detroit - nope.
    Golden State - riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
    Houston - another coach of the year candidate. unlikely.
    LAC - the team has quit on dunleavy, the owner likes magette, magette and dunleavy don't get along. dunleavy shouldn't be expected to lose his job this soon but if they felt they had a shot with a perenial playoff coach... not sure if rick would be interested though.
    LAL - if phil leaves, i guess it could happen. i wonder if rick could micromanage kobe. that'd be entertaining to watch at least.
    Memphis - probably not likely, Carlisle is quite Fratello-ish.
    Miami - Could be a coaching change but they'd probably go with SVG or Rothstein (sp?) the guy that took over this year
    Milwaukee - you don't think they'd jump on Rick, he's already guided two other Central Division teams to the playoffs and fantastic seasons. i think the bucks need to hire a proven coach this time around (following the two terrys) and unlike a number of other bad teams, the bucks have a ton of promise
    Minnesota - another Celtic connection. Rick wouldn't go there though...
    New Jersey
    - i don't know how much longer lawrence frank has. i don't think he's been too impressive since his first season. carlisle is a former nets assistant so that could be of appeal especially if they're going to keep kidd

    New York - did thomas really save his job? possibly. could carlisle replace him from a second coaching job, probably not of interest to rick. doubtful.
    NO/OKC - not sure how safe byron's job is... if he misses the playoffs it could be it. rick could get that team back there. i kinda doubt that rick would micromange with a guard like paul.
    Orlando - I'm not sure they're thrilled with Brian Hill back at the helm. Carlisle could finally get this team back in the playoffs and keep them there. Seems likely if they get rid of Hill. They are the 7th seed so that could be enough (if they hold on) to keep Hill's job.
    Philly - probably not likely that they'd get rid of Mo unless it was for Larry moving out of the front office
    Phoenix - highly unlikely.
    Portland - I think they give Nate more time. The team is bad which is an improvement from last year.
    Sacramento - coaching change a high possibility, changing to rick carlisle unlikely
    San Antonio - probably will go to PJ if and when Popp retires.
    Seattle - horrifically underachieving. need a winning season to earn the stadium. seattle shouldn't lose the team. the owners just might do it. plus bob hill is an idiot.
    Toronto - being talked in some circles about Sam Mitchell and coach of the year. probably won't be seeking a new coach this offseason.
    Utah - given the high turnover of head coaches in the Jazz organization, Carlisle wouldn't touch that job...
    Washington - most likely no coaching change



    so that gives rick essentially seven seemingly interested teams as i see it. i would say that of all the teams out there, if rick is fired or leaves the pacers, he'd probably go to milwaukee. you've got bogut who isn't amazing but isn't bad, a couple of talented PGs, Redd, and if he can stay healthy Villanueava isn't bad. seems to have the pieces to be a playoff regular, but needs a proven coach. as i said those others could be likely but Milwaukee would make the most sense.
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by countarfit View Post
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    isn't Rick Adelman available? He might actually be able to take the team in "up tempo" pace that they were supposedly doing this year. I though originally that his name was brought up last summer before Carlisle got his extension. Which would look like the Pacers made another mistake ending him if he were to be fired.

    This Pacer team can't play uptempo we just turn the ball over way too much.I think Carlisle has opened the offense up quite a bit where we are actually looking for some easy points but by doing that it has actually made our defense worse. How many times did we not get back on defense after a turnover or a miss? How many time did Kevin Martin beat our whole team down the course. If this is how we play in a uptempo offense we might as well go back to walk it up, throw it inside to JO on every posession and set up our Half court defense. I would rather win 85-81 then lose 125-110.

  9. #34
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    If you mean the poor defense - then I agree completely - if you mean the offense - then I disagree completely.
    I agree with Buck, though I'm not sure how much of the defense is Rick's "fault". Was this ever his thing anyway? He's had elite defensive teams in past seasons, but those teams had players excelled with it. He sure as heck could use better help than Chuck it would seem.

    This team just added to really weak defenders which has only amplified the perimeter defensive needs. Heck Murphy is allowing teams to pressure JO in the post from the weakside even, especially when he goes for the shot block.


    Larry for Rick MIGHT sell tix, but I don't buy it. I don't believe BBall or any other fan that says they would show up just because RC was fired, or Tins traded, or any of that other crap.

    All you'd end up with is the same 10-14K per night with a lame duck coach stuck headed sub-500 with the upcoming schedule (or a worse PG if Tins had been dealt).

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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    Nah...

    When he eventually realizes he doesn't have the people/ relational/ managerial skills to be the head coach, he'll make an absolutely terrific "#1 assistant" someday.

    Until then, he'll be a maddening underachiever as a HC - you know the brains and work ethic are there, but the players just can't stand him.

    I don't think the players even despise the offense/ system as much as we think they do.
    Underachiever?

    Um, okay. Just how many more wins than the previous coach with the same OR LESS talent are you expected to get to prove yourself nowadays? He's twice come into situations and VASTLY improved the team using the SAME players (ie, not a Larry Brown fake improvement situation).

    Underachieved because we all expected the Pacers to win 61 coming into that season. Underachieved because it was so obvious that the Pistons were due to win the Central and go to the 2nd round and then the ECF the following year.

    2 ECF in his first 5 seasons as a coach with 2 different teams that hadn't done better than a first round loss previously. But Larry Brown, he's great because he guided the Pistons from the ECF to the title and it only took adding a bench guy like Rasheed to do it.


    Maybe Rick doesn't fit this team, I don't know. I just know that he's got scoreboard so badly on every local critic it's not even funny. He's also got scoreboard on several ex-Pacers who complained about him holding them back.

    Get back to me when Ron makes the AS team again or wins DPOY again. AJ, AC, Fred, James, get in line behind him.

  11. #36
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Great response Seth. Jay your comment about Rick being an underachieving coach is laughable but more than that just wrong. It isn't supported by any of the facts.



    Here is a very little blurb from Vescey on the pacers.


    http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/...ter_vecsey.htm

    The Mysterious J's Pacers have given up 349 points in their last three games - and the next two are against the Suns. For want of a less insensitive approach, I'm wondering if management views the team's lack of resistance as an indictment on the players or coach Rick Carlisle.

  12. #37

    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    I really think Rick just looks burned out, and after what he has had to endure with this team over the last few seasons, that is very understandable. I do think we should move in a different direction this summer, but not because Rick can't coach, it's just time for a new outlook.

  13. #38
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Quote Originally Posted by UB
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    Great response Seth. Jay your comment about Rick being an underachieving coach is laughable but more than that just wrong. It isn't supported by any of the facts.
    Do we really need to go into the "when classifying over- and under-achieving some people consider the playoffs more important while others consider the overall record more important" conversation again?

    Jay's not wrong, he views the subject differently than you and Seth.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Underachieving in the playoffs.

    Who gives a rat's *** if he wins the division or has the most regular season games but only has two E.C.F. appearances to show for it.

    You guys get way too hung up on the regular season, and you're giving him far too much of the credit for keeping this team at 0.500 without acknowledging that he's the one mis-managing the team that leads to the disruptions.

    Artest wasn't controllable, he's been a problem everywhere he's gone. But SJax's off-court and lockerroom attitude and issues were new with the Pacers, Al Harrington seems to get along with every coach he's had except Rick. Tinsley, according to all of you, has a tremedously negative attitude because of Rick but its arbitrarily Tinsley's fault. Saras was regarded as a leam leader and great competitor but we didn't see any of that. Did he change, or did that have something to do with Rick? Hell, we've heard rumors of how much Bender hated Rick, etc. Fred? AJ even bit the hand that fed him after the playoffs last season.

    These players may have benefitted some - on the court - from Rick's gameplan and his own bball IQ. But the deep-rooted resentment all of these players have for Rick is the #2 cause for why this team is still stuck around 0.500, underachieving.

    I believe the following coaches could've gotten more out of this team than Rick:

    Riley
    JVG
    Jackson
    Byron Scott
    Frank
    Karl
    Popovich
    Sloan
    Bill Cowher
    SVG
    Jim O'Brien
    Bo Hill
    Fratello/ H. Brown

    and even (brace for it)
    Isiah Thomas, who made about 1,495,320,569 tactical mistakes but his players believed in him and bought into what he was doing.

    I haven't formed an opinion on either Nellie or Flip.

    However, the following alleged "great" coaches would not have done better than Rick:

    Larry Brown - duh
    Avery Johnson - who is blessed with tremendous talent but if we switched him and Mike Woodson the Mavs would still be winning and the Hawks would still be losing
    D'Antoni - wrong system, but he's a fine coach and if we were to hire him and totally revamp the team that would be okay with me. But he wouldn't have won with the teams Rick has had.
    Doc Rivers - well, Doc Rivers thinks that Doc Rivers is great, so that has to count for something
    Doug Collins - its a shame he's allowed to provide commentary about coaches

    If we're going to act like Rick is such a great coach, then he must be compared to other (legit) great coaches in the NBA today (Riley, JVG, Pop, Jackson, Sloan, Karl, D'Antoni) and he's not in that league.

    Does "he might be in the top ten but he's definitely in the top-half" really make him so "great"?

    Can anybody - without resorting to W/L records, explain why Rick is considered a better coach than Randy Wittman, for example?
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  15. #40
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Jay, back in Rick's two seasons as the Pistons head coach, I stated over and over again that those Pistons teams were the best coached teams in the NBA. How did I judge that? Partly due to the won/loss record, but more than that I watched them play and that is how I decided. When the Pacers played the Pistons in those two years I said the same thing.

    When Rick took over for Isiah and led the wild and brash Pacers team to 61 wins (with less talent than the previous year)it was amazing and a fantastic coaching job. Remarkable really. If it weren't for the Pistons getting Sheed and some untimely injuries to JO and Jamaal the Pacers would have gotten to the finals and seeing how the Lakers imploded, the Pacers would have beaten the Lakers and won the championship.

    Then the brawl happened early the next season and everything changed.

    Jay I guess we just disagree on Rick.

    But before I end this post I'm not going to let you get away with putting Bob Hill in the list of great coaches. Now come on - you have to be joking - Bob Hill was average at best. I'll never understand why you think he's so good.


    I don't think for one minute that Rick's teams underachieved in the playoffs. I don't see any evidence of that. He's been a head coach for 6 full seasons. He's been to the ECF twice. ECF semi finals twice and lost in the first round once. If and when Rick leaves as pacers coach. He'll be hired immedietely

  16. #41
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Bob Hill has as many 61-win seasons as Rick. 1.



    Bob Hill looked like a very good coach in SA when he had talent. We spend too much time harping on coaches that don't have talent to work with. Bob Hill did more with the 90-92 Pacers to get them to 0.500 than Rick is doing with this team.

    I think Wittman is a better coach than Rick, but he was saddled with the Shawn Kemp-era Cavs.

    I think Rick is a capable NBA coach - he can do things right - many things right - as evidenced a few years ago. But he's not any better or worse than many other NBA coaches that haven't had the luxury of some of the rosters Rick has worked with.

    And he has a huge, glaring weakness that - at least right now - limits his potential.

    If we were just talking about whether Rick is a smart coach or not, I'd agree that he's a brilliant tactician. That's why I keep saying he'll make an excellent #1 assistant someday. We agree on that. I just don't think he's a good choice for "the hot seat."
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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  17. #42
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    I just hope Rick Carlisle gets fired after this season. JO has been great. GREAT!!! Tonight we lost to Phoenix and I guess it just exposed RC's flaws as a coach. When we got up in the 3rd it was when we were in a free-flowing offense but after the SUNS caught up, we were too dependent on JO and DAntoni outcoached RC, he read our plays like an idiot card. Also, not many have called out Dunleavey and Murphy. They are plain slow and can't play D. They're pathetic. Dunleavy can't even hit a consistent J and RC gives em a lot of minutes. Murphy I can let slide but Dunleavy is just horrible.

    JO owned Amare tonight. JO is back in the Elite 10 or 15 in the league. We really need a shooter to help JO out. Man! RC sucks. This year whave no more excuses. But with that said, shame on my idol Larry Legend too for being tooooooooooooooooooooooooo stubborn and resigning this guy.

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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    He needs to go. . We need a new coach. Pacers have so much talent and they are restricted under carlisle's ROBOTIC system. . .When we let the players play we'll be more successful

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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Slade View Post
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    Hmm ..Does everyone remember this before the season started.

    Carlisle Gets New Title With Extension



    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/digest_061005.html

    I know shortly thereafter Bruno said the release was premature ,but did not dispute the fact. Couldn't he just "transition into a front office role ?
    I have been saying this since the offseason. I really think Carlisle is going to move up into management and the Pacers will bring in a new coach. Donnie and Bird know that some of the players don't even listen to Rick anymore and that they don't care what he thinks. Of course one of those players has already been shipped out but I don't think they will get rid of the rest of them.

  20. #45
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Fire Management first. New management will bring in a new coach anyway.

    Carlisle's been given crap to work with for the most part. Unless you want to count the psycho-nutjob-fruitcase-loony - and in that case you have management which brought in a psycho-nutjob-fruitcase-loony which the franchise is still paying for.

    I do, however, think Carlisle would be a better coach if he had the chance to coach basketball players, not psycho-nutjob-fruitcase-loonies and all their friends.

    So get management that brings in basketball players.
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Who in the world, coachwise, could have put up with the crap better than Rick did?

    Let's take a look at all that's happened in the past five seasons, and I'm sure I'll forget some incidents as well.

    1.) Ron, PERIOD. I could make a list a mile long of his antics during the 61 win season with all the different ways he either recieved Ts or flagrant fouls.
    2.) The brawl
    3.) Using a number of different players on ten day contracts (see reason 3 as of why)
    4.) Injuries, injuries, injuries. Which player do you want to talk about? Jamaal and his "sinuspoutis?" Or how about JO, with his groin tear, dislocated shoulder, ankle sprains, etc? What about Cro and his concussions? When two starters average missing 20+ games a season because of injuries or suspensions, it's kind of hard to coach your team.
    5.) Ron's push to be a rapper.
    6.) Ron's asking for a trade.
    7.) Trading away 66% of your roster
    8.) Club Rio
    9.) 8 Second Salon

    That's a pretty watered-down list, IMO. Ron's antic's for 3 seasons was enough for any coach to pull his hair out. The other than actual basketball environment for this team hasn't been in any shape or form good enough to actually win.

    I've said it many times before. This team doesn't need a coach. It needs a freaking babysitter.

    Rick needs to be gone, but not because of his lack of production. It's because he deserves a hell of a lot better than what the Pacers have given him.

  22. #47
    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Seriously though vice president of basketball operations...has anybody ever heard of anyone else in the entire league with that title? That's like double-secret probation

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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Shoot, Rick's starting to tune himself out. Hence all of the guests on on his show this season.......
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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
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    Seriously though vice president of basketball operations...has anybody ever heard of anyone else in the entire league with that title? That's like double-secret probation
    That was The title originally given to Joe Dumars when he retired. He became the boss a year later.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    That was The title originally given to Joe Dumars when he retired. He became the boss a year later.
    It scares me to think of Rick as the President of the Pacers. No wait...it horrifies me.

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