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Thread: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy View Post
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    Thats what I saw. Tinsley hardly played at all in the 3rd quarter, and that's the quarter where Martin went off for 21 and the Kings scored 40. You can't lay the blame on someone that wasn't even in the game.
    And why was he taken from he game 4 minutes and 52 seconds into the third quarter? Three "blow-bys" by Bibby, two turnovers, and 2 fouls.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playby...meId=270225011

    It got worse after he left, since his backups suck even more han he does, but I'm sorry, I don't grade on a curve.

    JT is better than his backups. Diarrhea is better than vomiting, usually anyway. Doesn't mean I pick it.

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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    And why was he taken from he game 4 minutes and 52 seconds into the third quarter? Three "blow-bys" by Bibby, two turnovers, and 2 fouls.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playby...meId=270225011

    It got worse after he left, since his backups suck even more han he does, but I'm sorry, I don't grade on a curve.

    JT is better than his backups. Diarrhea is better than vomiting, usually anyway. Doesn't mean I pick it.
    He sat down because he picked up his 4th foul. And he was guarding Martin. DA was guarding Bibby.....
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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Armstrong was guarding Bibby. Jamaal was taken out due to foul trouble.

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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Well, I guess Jamaal isn't the problem after all. The 17 point lead happened while he was on the bench. We would've won if we had kept him in there.




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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Well, I guess Jamaal isn't the problem after all. The 17 point lead happened while he was on the bench. We would've won if we had kept him in there.
    Glad to see you're coming around.....


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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    The Pacers were outscored by 9 points in the final 2 minutes of the third. That's where the game was lost. The team fell apart with McLeod, Marshall and Baston all playing at the same time.

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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Yeah.

    OT, but here's a picture of your buddy Clint driving to the Oscars yesterday.


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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpolloloco View Post
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    I rather have Jasikevicius than Tinsley at the moment, even though his defense is just as worse.
    Say it ain't so!!! I refuse to beleive you've flip-flopped so hard on this issue.



    Anyway, how can a PG that goes 3-8 with 5 assists, 1 steal, 3 TOs and 5 fouls be WORSE than a PG that goes 3-11 with 3 assists, 1 steal, 3 TOs and 5 fouls?

    Sure DA got his 3 assists in only 20 minutes to Tins 30, but that also means he shot it more per minute (at a worse rate), turned it over more per minute and fouled more per minute.

    So all I have to do to see proof that Tins isn't the worst is to look at the home team's roster.


    DA is a lot of fun to watch, but he is a backup and his age/shoulder are really biting into his game now that we are deep into the season. Sucks to see it happen, but it's a problem.

    Tins is weaker defender against the dribble, no question, but isn't it also odd that OVERALL the team is worse defensively now than it was 2 months ago...with Tinsley on the team.

    It's funny to see Jack haters or Dun lovers (is there a difference) skate around the issue that I brought up at the time of the trade. Golden State was not as good a defensive team as the Pacers were at the time, and 2 of the major minutes guys from that team came over to the Pacers.

    Who really thought they had nothing to do with GS being a poor defensive team?

    So the problem is you lost Jack at SG for defense, you slowed way down with Dun defending the edge, you still have Tins, and as nice as Murph is with his scoring and rebounding he is a brutally poor defender too (worse than uninspired Harrington even).


    The Pacers didn't just get to improve only, in trades you give to get, and they gave up some defense in order to move Jack and to try and solve the offensive end.

    That puts the rest of the team in the same shoes as Tinsley, nice on offense, not so great on defense.


    It's also ironic that I heard a lot of fans complaining about the grinding Pacers, the defensive heavy Pacers that kept games 85-80. At least those teams won. And now people are getting uptight about the lack of defense.

    Be careful what you wish for. And the same might be true regarding wishing Tinsley away. You can improve that position, sure, but you can also do much worse, more than some fans realize I think.

    Either way, swapping out the PG won't solve the problem.



    Armstrong was guarding Bibby. Jamaal was taken out due to foul trouble.
    I haven't been able to watch the full tape, I was able to watch portions though. I did see a period where Tins had to go over to Martin and that was not a pleasant matchup. That has as much to do with KMart though. Hmm, just the other day I was saying "if only they'd traded Ron for Martin instead of Peja", and they could have gotten that done I'm sure. Not both, just Martin. And Pacers fans would have been PO'd. Well some, not me for sure. They sure could use an SG like that right about now, probably more than Murphy (assuming Al was moved for him in the big trade - Ron-Peja-Al-Murph, wow, it's only been 1 year since they moved Ron and you have this chain already).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    The Pacers were outscored by 9 points in the final 2 minutes of the third. That's where the game was lost. The team fell apart with McLeod, Marshall and Baston all playing at the same time.
    I haven't seen this portion yet. Doesn't sound good. I guess that was foul trouble time. Sounds more like the lack of Quis hurt the team again (due to depth). People love Baston, but as much as I like some parts of his game, he's not a very good post defender. He's a great shot blocker, but he has a tough time denying a decent post look. And then 3 guys whose games are a bit more green, that's not really what you want to see on court together.

    I'll get a chance to watch the rest tonight and see for myself.

    kick out to DunDun for an uncontested 3.....miss, 2 plays later, dribble penetration, kick out to Murphy for the uncontested 3.......misss. next play dribble penetration for the kickout to Danny at the side for an uncontested 3. want to guess the result?
    Unfortunately I did see that segment, as least the Dun and Murph shots. I know all PGs lose out on that stuff, but man those were WIDE open looks and in big part created by Tinsley. "Bad shot" Tinsley went 2-3 from the arc. Rest of the team 3-15. Now that will make you sick.


    Armstrong replaced Williams to start the second half with Jamaal Tinsley sliding to shooting guard and Dunleavy to small forward.
    Let's see, how did the 1st go vs the 3rd? I'm glad they took Shawne over Marcus personally.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    DIY or "dump into JO" were the ONLY plays open that had "some" result.
    I wouldn't use the word "dump" when talking about Jamaal Tinsley.

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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by indy0731 View Post
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    Unfortunately we don't have a legit backup PG. Our 38 year old supposedly calm and cool PG went 3/11 tonight and got a T in 11 less minutes than Tinsley.
    I enjoy DA as much as anyone, but he has never and will never be called calm and cool. That is not who he is. So don't expect that.


    The Pacers fell apart when Marshal and McLoud were in the game together late in the 3rd quarter. When Tinsley was brought back in I sighed and sigh of relief because at least he can dribble the ball

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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I enjoy DA as much as anyone, but he has never and will never be called calm and cool. That is not who he is. So don't expect that.


    The Pacers fell apart when Marshal and McLoud were in the game together late in the 3rd quarter. When Tinsley was brought back in I sighed and sigh of relieve because at least he can dribble the ball
    Well thats what we need from him right now. His game is falling off as this season wears on and it could be expected, but we need a leader right now and we can't have a guy we need to be a leader shooting 11 times and only making 3.

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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    DA makes a lot of bad decisions with the ball for a PG. An ill-advised length of the court pass. A rushed three pointer. Sound familiar?

    Armstrong hustles because that's all he's got, but he's not the solution.

    I'm not opposed to watching McLeod a bit more, but the McLeod and Marshall backcourt was just awful at both ends of the court. That went from a close game to a blowout in no time.
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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by indy0731 View Post
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    Well thats what we need from him right now. His game is falling off as this season wears on and it could be expected, but we need a leader right now and we can't have a guy we need to be a leader shooting 11 times and only making 3.
    We might need it, but he can't provide it. I think he has and will continue to provide leadership - but cool and collected is not what got him into the NBA and that isn't what he is.

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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    I don't know about ANY point guard being able to replace Tinsley. Honestly after seing McCleod TRY to run the point last night i was kinda beggin for them to bring JT back in. Kinda sad huh?
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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    I just cant understand this at all....

    Take a look at the last 5 games for Tinsley and then rethink what ur saying .... you must understand a lot of the shots that PGs take in this league are when there are no other options available ... Usually when the shot clock is down or the offence is static its the PG that has to force up a shot ... this really hurts shootin %ages .... dont get me wrong i dont think Tins is amazing ... but he is deffinitly our best option as has been playing resonably well ... yes is shooting %age is low yes he D isnt very good ... but he is passing the ball well ... he is getting steels and he is doing as his coach tells him to do .... There is no question he is our starting PG and probably our 3rd best player


    Tins defense may not be great but there is no possible way that u can say Darrels is that much better ... our PnR defence sucked pretty much all game!!


    I am at a loss at the lack of love for Tins that seems to be gettin worse ... he aint perfect but he deffinitly isnt as bad as u say! ... those assists have shot up ... hes averaging around 10 assist a game for the last 5!

    I just dont understand the hate being so strong!!
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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    I've been hoping all year long that they would move Tins, but they haven't. As much as I dislike his game, there's no case to be made for any of the other PG's on the roster. Tins is the best PG we have, and it's not even close. Things have gotten so bad that I know cringe when DA comes into the game for Tinsley.

    There are a couple things that need to happen for this team to win any amount of games for the rest of the year.

    1. Tins, Daniels, and JO need to play about 40 min/game. There are no adequate replacements on the roster.

    2. None of those three can miss more than a couple games with injuries.

    3. The two PG lineup needs to be put to bed for good, as does the McLeod-Marshall backcourt and the Foster-Baston frontcourt.

    4. Rick needs to sub more quickly. The Pacers were up by a few points at halftime last night. Two minutes into the 3rd quarter it was obvious that the lineup on the floor wasn't working. They were out there for at least 5 more minutes before he made a change.

    5. The Pacers need to learn how to play an effective zone defense. This would allow them to hide players like Dunleavy, Murphy, DA, Tins, and Ike who can't guard anybody one on one.
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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Those are all very valid suggestions. This is the roster we've got for the rest of the season. Its not a champioship-caliber roster. But its not a lottery-bound roster, either. Assuming the coach maximizes their performance.

    Rick generally gets there, but it takes him a while to acknowledge when one of his ideas goes awry. He's a bit like Wile E. Coyote that way, isn't he?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    I'm not opposed to watching McLeod a bit more, but the McLeod and Marshall backcourt was just awful at both ends of the court. That went from a close game to a blowout in no time.
    I think last night's game was heading that direction when we had a 7 point lead. I kept telling my roommates that we would be down by 20 by then end of the third quarter if we kept playing like that.

    That's not to say the Ms weren't awful as a tandem. I was hoping Tinsley would come back in; that's how bad it was. Rawle shouldn't be playing, and I was very disappointed with McLeod. I thought that starting for Jerry Sloan would probably be good enough for me, but last night was atrocious.

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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
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    I really like Shawn Williams and all but, we REALLY REALLY should have drafted a PG
    I absolutely agree with you. He is a very nice player, but it was a little parallel to Danny, when the greater need was point guard. Marcus Williams, Fordan Farmar, Dee Brown in the 2nd round...all of these guys were available for the Pacers. Especially Dee Brown. I don't know how great he'll be, but if you're going to take a flyer on a player, why not pick up tremendous speed and quickness at the point guard position ? Hard to figure out the thinking there. I like Jamaal, but he just isn't the answer, and from reading the 1-on-1's the top brass know that as well.

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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I think last night's game was heading that direction when we had a 7 point lead. I kept telling my roommates that we would be down by 20 by then end of the third quarter if we kept playing like that.
    I like this point. I see other debates going on about how when player X went to the bench the deficit got so much larger or when X guys were on the court the D was notably more porous, etc., etc.

    While there may be some truth to some of these assertions, it was painfully obvious from the tip that we again were not significantly mentally and emotionally engaged. We should have been up near 20 points in the first half but we still had the lacksadaisical sheen to our play.

    While JO and Jeff did appear to be the only guys really dialed in IMO, it's really about the big picture. What does it take to fire the guys up? I blame them and the coaches. It's got to come from within and without at this level.

    RC looked noticeably pissed by his standards when they got the dunk while we were just whining and lollygaging back. Yet it didn't appear he ever let the player know. Maybe you can't ride em that hard all the time, but if ever there were an acceptable time to let em have it, that was it.

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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    It's so easy to just rant & rage about Tinsley, why would you want to actually watch a game when you can just rant&rage about Tinsley anyway?

    1: Our biggest "pest" was without a second of a doubt K.Martin.
    His "main" production came when Tinsley was out; he caused Tinsley to pick up a lot of fouls, but he hardly scored v Tinsley (yeah that bad defender) and the fouls Tinsley had to take were often a result of a break down elsewhere like when RC had the bright idea of starting Tins @ SG in the 3rd.
    example; Tins picks of a ball int he passing lane (st) full court pass to DA who blows the layup and a long pass back to K.Martin who then has a "free" run, Tins prevents the score but gets the fould (his 4th at the time).

    2. That same Tinsley is +5 where DA is -17 (how much was it again we lost by?)

    3. "Few" assists? yeah, let's see, dribble penetration , kick out to DunDun for an uncontested 3.....miss, 2 plays later, dribble penetration, kick out to Murphy for the uncontested 3.......misss. next play dribble penetration for the kickout to Danny at the side for an uncontested 3. want to guess the result?

    DIY or "dump into JO" were the ONLY plays open that had "some" result.

    If you all take off your "we hate Tinsley" button long enough to watch the game then you can only conclude that the two players who played hurt last night were also our very best players on the court, got us ahead but were dumped in a hole so big there was no chance that "just the two of us" could get us out of there.

    I have said it before and will say it again, the moment Tinsley leaves the court the team falls to shambles.

    This team can not sustain one minute without either JO or Tinsley and that is an alarming fact.
    I would love to have Bibby or Martin.
    Dunleay or Tins don't have near either in trade value.
    Lets hope Dunleavy improves. He is in a slump & I'm not certain he is a starter, but I like to think I at least give players a fair chance.
    1 - 2, Tinsley's coming for you.
    3 - 4, You're not a team no more.
    5 - 6, He's gonna plead the 5th.
    7 - 8, He's gonna stay out late.




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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    I got to see the 1st properly and with rewind going. Tinsley was the least of the issues out there on defense. It was PnR and a lot of times it started with Martin and Miller (aka attacking Murph and Dun).

    Bibby's first 3 came from Tinsley dropping to the lane to help stop Martin who had left Dun in the dust.

    Another time featured Bibby stepping right between Murph and Miller as Trophy tried to trap the PnR out high - gee, isn't that familiar, the Bucks did it to JO, Foster and Troy, as in the 2nd to last score to send it to OT when JO got beat this way.


    Bibby set a backscreen on Williams so the SF could feed the high post and then Give and Go with a backcut to the rim. Williams didn't space well (which allowed him to be picked so easily) and Tins didn't read it to help, so you had a wide open layup when Miller passed it in to him.

    A few trips later they ran the same thing except that Tins did read it, cut off the passing lane to the cutter. So instead Bibby used that space to step out behind Miller for the catch and shoot.


    Then another time Murph choose to push Bibby out off the PnR, but unfortunately Tinsley was trying to follow the ball rather than going under and giving up the PnPop to him. That meant that Murph actually cut off Tins and made the situation worse. Bibby got 5 feet ahead of Tins and went straight to the lane.

    Was it Tins or Murph who played it wrong? I don't know. All I know is that they were defending it 2 different ways that time.


    Honestly Tins was decent enough. He got beat on one PnR when he overplayed the first PnR and Bibby just went right back the other direction. But most of the time he looked to be playing it right. Most of the real spacing was created away from him and against Dun and Murphy.


    It's frustrating because Dun and Murph are the most capable fast break players on the team, they space that aspect perfectly. So it's good to have what they do out there, but at the same time you are really going to get hammered at the other end.

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    Default Re: Tinsley Is The Worst Point Guard

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    I've been hoping all year long that they would move Tins, but they haven't. As much as I dislike his game, there's no case to be made for any of the other PG's on the roster. Tins is the best PG we have, and it's not even close. Things have gotten so bad that I know cringe when DA comes into the game for Tinsley.

    There are a couple things that need to happen for this team to win any amount of games for the rest of the year.

    1. Tins, Daniels, and JO need to play about 40 min/game. There are no adequate replacements on the roster.

    2. None of those three can miss more than a couple games with injuries.

    3. The two PG lineup needs to be put to bed for good, as does the McLeod-Marshall backcourt and the Foster-Baston frontcourt.

    4. Rick needs to sub more quickly. The Pacers were up by a few points at halftime last night. Two minutes into the 3rd quarter it was obvious that the lineup on the floor wasn't working. They were out there for at least 5 more minutes before he made a change.

    5. The Pacers need to learn how to play an effective zone defense. This would allow them to hide players like Dunleavy, Murphy, DA, Tins, and Ike who can't guard anybody one on one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay
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    Those are all very valid suggestions. This is the roster we've got for the rest of the season. Its not a champioship-caliber roster. But its not a lottery-bound roster, either. Assuming the coach maximizes their performance.

    Rick generally gets there, but it takes him a while to acknowledge when one of his ideas goes awry. He's a bit like Wile E. Coyote that way, isn't he?
    I agree with both of you. I expect that we are going to see a PT trend stretched as much as RC thinks health will allow. Sucks because JO needs some rest right now and Quis is obviously hurting too.


    RC used that double PG to solve some problems, and I think right now it's the lack of Dun's speed and Rawle's awareness that are keeping it going, especially when Quis is out. One reason I hated trading Jack without getting a SG coming back somehow.

    Baston's issue is post play. He's not that great a post player at either end. He has great wingspan and if you get him the ball coming to the rim it's getting thrown down. He's got an okay jumper. But he's not going to look like Ike out there. This makes him a bad pairing with Jeff and even Murphy. With Murph though you can play an outside offense and go without a post threat for awhile.

    But Baston does offer some positives in the right situations.


    RC just isn't a knee-jerk guy, he likes to really find things out. He's always been prone to error on the side of caution. It's just a choice. Erring the other way is just as bad.

    If he can figure out some of these issues by the playoffs there still could be hope, and I think that is enough time for him to feel out some of the changes he would like to make regarding these and other issues.

    But I'm also wondering about the abilty of anyone with the team to coach strong defense. They are getting beat more by PLAYS than by PLAYERS. That's defensive coaching, RC or otherwise.

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