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Thread: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

  1. #1
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    I think JO signed his ticket out of here with his vociferous 'discussion' with TPTB immediately following the 8th game of the season. Also, his comments here and there about maybe him and team being better off apart isn't going to help his longevity here either.

    I know some of you think he's having one of his best seasons. I think that is because TPTB made a decision to appease JO in order to showcase JO. It's all about JO. So at the end of the year, JO individually will look pretty good. But, as always, it's at the sacrifice of the team (and the coach). That's why our record with JO and without JO is remarkably similar.

    If JO could blend into a team concept he's a very good player and could make the others around him better and make the team more formidable. But he can't... and won't... He made that perfectly clear 8 games into the season. He will not sacrifice any of his game for the betterment of the team. Whether this is ego or a lack of basketball IQ I don't know. He talks a good game off the court. It's a shame he can't bring that same diplomacy to his game on the court.

    This is similar to what I think is happening with Tinsley... except things aren't all about Tinsley. It's just that he's being given a lot of lattitude as a vaccine against sinupoutinitis.

    Carlisle showed he was willing to try something else with this team. JO showed he was not willing to give it a chance. And that's not what this team needs now.

    The more I think about it, Murphy, Dunleavy and Iogu(sp?) weren't brought in to compliment JO as much as they were brought in to have players already in the system that could play the style of basketball we'll see without JO here. And a style we've seen under Carlisle when JO hasn't played.

    We're not going to start from scratch but by the 07-08 season I think the brawl performers will be elsewhere.

    We know what the fans want.... we know what at least Bird wants... and we know JO has already balked. The 'lightbulb game' where JO 'gets it' that I was waiting on isn't coming. He can never take a backseat here. Maybe somewhere else he could, but here his ego won't allow it. He clearly showed that 8 games into the season. That was a slap in the face to the franchise and a wakeup call. IMHO

    Whether this could happen before the deadline is anybody's guess. I'm not saying TPTB will have a firesale for JO. They know he has value.... but IMHO we're watching his last season here. And Tinsley shouldn't be too far behind him if he doesn't go first. But I wonder if a package deal is in play (JO & Tinsley). In any case... this is something that might be discussed now, just too big to pull together mid season and so not finalized until summer. Once the back channels start buzzing maybe more offers will come in than can be analyzed and negotiated. Or maybe everything will come together this week and the trigger will be pulled (figuring the best offer at the deadline might be better than gambling on Tins and JO staying healthy for the rest of the season).

    -Bball
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  2. #2
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    I'm going to add-

    When JO balked at what Carlisle was looking to do he also balked at what TPTB had decided was better for the franchise. ...For the ticket buying public...

    He threw a lot of people under the bus in an argument that reportedly was more about what the team could and should do for him... not what he could do for the team. And when I say 'team' I mean the whole organization in this case.

    -Bball
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    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Banned Jermaniac's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    How many times have you said this already? You made this same thread at least 3 times.

  4. #4
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dat Dude View Post
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    How many times have you said this already? You made this same thread at least 3 times.
    I think today is the first time I've ever predicted JO will be traded. Not that he might, or should be.... but that he will be.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Bball, with all due respect, stick to your Bender theory. You're really grasping here...

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Banned Jermaniac's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I think today is the first time I've ever predicted JO will be traded. Not that he might, or should be.... but that he will be.

    -Bball
    You just posted the same damn thing in 2 other threads. Today. Not to mention the other 2,000 times you have said a whole bunch of stuff about how Jermaine represents everything that is horrible in this world.

    All you do is talk about how much Jermaine and JT suck.

    Okay be truthful when I ask you this, do you get mad when JO and Tinsley play a good game. Please dont lie. There is no need to lie about this.

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    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dat Dude View Post
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    How many times have you said this already? You made this same thread at least 3 times.
    This is not an attack on your thought, or your post, Bball... but similar to the Mike Wells article the other day, did something noteworthy happen recently to bring this similar post of yours back up, yet again?

    Honestly, I could see them taking a deal on Jermaine, but as you also mentioned... It won't be a "fire sale". Where I feel differently, I believe it is J.O.'s decision whether he stays, or goes and what happened on game 8 wont amount to anything in the grand scheme of if he stays or goes.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

  8. #8
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dat Dude View Post
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    You just posted the same damn thing in 2 other threads. Today.
    I just decided to elaborate here on that little snippet I said in the other thread because that thread was about whether we'd make a move at the deadline or not. So I didn't think that was the place to go into a detail even tho I planned on elaborating because it dovetailed with what I posted above (and had already planned to write).

    All you do is talk about how much Jermaine and JT suck.
    Jermaine doesn't suck... but he needs to allow someone to ascend to the leadership mantle and he needs to take a lesser role in the offense. We're never going to have good guard play (at least not what many fans are expecting) as long as the offense is ran like it is now.

    Okay be truthful when I ask you this, do you get mad when JO and Tinsley play a good game. Please dont lie. There is no need to lie about this.
    I do get mad when Tinsley plays a good game because it shows what he's capable of game in and game out but that he just doesn't do.

    But it's a tease because Bad Jamaal always returns.

    I don't have a problem with JO's talent but he and Carlisle are not a good fit and (thanks to game 8) I think it's more JO than Carlisle's fault.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Banned Jermaniac's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Jermaine doesn't suck... but he needs to allow someone to ascend to the leadership mantle and he needs to take a lesser role in the offense. We're never going to have good guard play (at least not what many fans are expecting) as long as the offense is ran like it is now.

    -Bball
    If Jermaine takes a lesser role on offense who is going to take the shots? You have a problem with Jamaal shooting too much so Jamaal cant shoot. Dunleavy actually takes way too many shots. Danny is not aggressive enough to get more shots, he stands at the 3 and when he is open he shots, but since he cant get to the hoop he has to pass up most of his shots because he isnt open.

    Jermaine is the only consistent offensive player on our team, he needs to be a big part of the offense because the players around him are not suited to be big time options in the offense. Take Jermaine off this team and put Ike or Troy at the PF and this team has the worst record in the NBA. These guys needs Jermaine because Jermaine takes all the pressure of them, could you imagine this team with Jamaal being the #1 option or Danny, I can and its ugly.

    You talk about our record being the same with JO and with out him. Well this year we are

    2-4 without him and 26-20 with him.

  10. #10
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    If they're not building around Jermaine, then I can't even begin to imagine why the most recent trade was made.

    I'm not adverse to trading JO, if the deal is right. There are several players I'd trade JO for in a heartbeat. But you're right, I don't like this theory. Not because it offends me (I'm certainly not against the team getting better!), but because it's not a very good theory.
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  11. #11
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dat Dude View Post
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    If Jermaine takes a lesser role on offense who is going to take the shots?
    Don't play that game with him, it's crap that he's trying to sell as diamonds. Early-season Jermaine didn't have a lesser role on offense than current Jermaine. Count the shot attempts... Jermaine's touches went DOWN after the magical mythical eighth game. I've pointed this out on multiple occasions, but BBall is wedded to his fantasy.

    One of my biggest problems with Jermaine in years past is he believed that if he wasn't scoring, he couldn't help the team win. That may even have been true, in the past. But it's not any longer. Jermaine's rebounding well, passing well, and playing the best defense of his life. I've never been more appreciative of him as a player. But the better he gets, the less BBall likes him. Don't ask me why, I can't explain it. But it's increasingly obvious that some people first choose who they're going to hate, then figure out why they hate them. Once those reasons no longer apply, they simply find new reasons.
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Don't play that game with him, it's crap that he's trying to sell as diamonds. Early-season Jermaine didn't have a lesser role on offense than current Jermaine. Count the shot attempts... Jermaine's touches went DOWN after the magical mythical eighth game. I've pointed this out on multiple occasions, but BBall is wedded to his fantasy.

    One of my biggest problems with Jermaine in years past is he believed that if he wasn't scoring, he couldn't help the team win. That may even have been true, in the past. But it's not any longer. Jermaine's rebounding well, passing well, and playing the best defense of his life. I've never been more appreciative of him as a player. But the better he gets, the less BBall likes him. Don't ask me why, I can't explain it. But it's increasingly obvious that some people first choose who they're going to hate, then figure out why they hate them. Once those reasons no longer apply, they simply find new reasons.
    Thats what it is. If the Boston game thing never happend, you think BBall wouldnt be trying to pull this crap again anyway. Just like you said, if the Boston thing didnt happen BBall would have found something else, so it doesnt really matter.

    He felt like this for like 2-3 years, this is not something that just came to him, he is just using the Boston thing as a excuse.

  13. #13
    Member odeez's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Fans either like a player or they don't.

    If you like a player you tend to stick with them through the good and the bad.

    This back forth, I'm right and your wrong is going no where.

    If you look at his game this year, I don't think you can complain too much.
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  14. #14
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dat Dude View Post
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    If Jermaine takes a lesser role on offense who is going to take the shots?
    Lesser role doesn't mean he won't be taking shots but it could mean everything doesn't run thru him. It might mean he doesn't always get the ball when or where he wants it.

    Heck, he might even be screening for a guard to get an open shot...

    ---

    Anyway... I was just going on record with my prediction and WHY I think it will happen. I didn't necessarily want to debate the same stuff over again. And I wanted to go on record before the trade deadline for the outside chance it would happen then.

    I think game 8 of the season has and will have more ramnifications than some of you obviously want to believe.

    -Bball
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    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    How can people love a player who was paid twice his worth, and hate another player for being paid, at most, 1/4 more then he is worth? Don't give me the classy thing either, JO I'm willing to bet money is "classier" then 3/4 of the league's stars.


    Personally I think highly of both Jermaine and Croshere. Also yes I know I'm highly simplifying things, but it's really bugging me.

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    Member Isaac's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Bball, wasn't it you who was so sure that Jermaine was going to be traded with Tinsley to the T-Wolves for Garnett right after we signed Sarunas in 05?

    Jermaine isn't going anywhere. Predict all you want.

  17. #17
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
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    Bball, wasn't it you who was so sure that Jermaine was going to be traded with Tinsley to the T-Wolves for Garnett right after we signed Sarunas in 05?

    Jermaine isn't going anywhere. Predict all you want.
    I was rooting for the possibility because I thought both players could use a change of scenery but I wasn't predicting it.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Ok, two things.

    1. People, this is Bball's opinion. This is a message board. We are all entitled to opinions & yes we are entitled to being told our opinions are wrong, garbage, whatever.

    So I think it is totally wrong to be asking Bball why he is making a post about his opinion. It is totally right to tell him his opinion is wrong, but let's not stifle the creative process here please.

    2. Of course I happen to agree with Bball on this.

    He's taking the heat but I'm the one who lost his mind after that 8th game meeting. Nothing mythical about it. It's fact with two verified sources. Yes one was the hated evil Mike Wells but guess who was the other source? That's right J.O. himself verified that there was a "clearing of the air" meeting.

    Immediately after that we saw a return to slog ball. We saw Jeff Foster return & Danny be benched. We saw Al Harrington go from being energetic & inconsistant to being inconsistant.

    But some of us will only blame Rick Carlisle.

    Save your typing btw people because I'm not going to be changing my mind on this just like none of you will change yours.

    You can tell me all you want about slow starts, bad defense, etc., etc., etc.

    At the end of the day I still believe what I believe & that is that Jermaine O'Neal at the first sign of trouble, eight games into the season, went storming into the office & demanded that the offense be re-structured to run through him.

    Now how does this play into Bballs post? Simple, all summer long the Pacer made moves so that we would have players who would thrive in an open court setting. Players that needed movement, not spacing, for thier games to work.

    That all went down after game 8. Then the next big trade occures & at first the offense was differant & the team was differant. But once they got to practice frequently & learn the plays we then saw a lot of spacing & little motion.

    But it's just Rick Carlisle I'm sure.

    Ok, some of the above was hyperbole on my part. I'm not saying which.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    We are going to be battling the luxury tax every year in the foreseeable future. That will be okay if we are winning and fans return to Conseco.

    But, I think it is also clear, if we don't win consistently, the Pacers attendance problems and corresponding financial issues will worsen, if anything.

    The financial distress on the team caused by mediocrity on the court will be the reason JO exits Indiana, if he ever does.

    To a large extent JO's future in Indiana depends on how well this team plays the rest of the season and, especially, in the playoffs. If we can't be a top tier team with JO, sooner rather than later, the team is going to want to move on and head in a different direction. So will JO.

    If things don't work out, it will be wrong to say this divorce was because Rick didn't use JO properly, or that JO didn't do everything he could to help this team. The trade will come because the Pacers and JO simply weren't collectively good enough on the court to get the job done.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthman View Post
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    To a large extent JO's future in Indiana depends on how well this team plays the rest of the season and, especially, in the playoffs. If we can't be a top tier team with JO, sooner rather than later, the team is going to want to move on and head in a different direction. So will JO.

    If things don't work out, it will be wrong to say this divorce was because Rick didn't use JO properly, or that JO didn't do everything he could to help this team. The trade will come because the Pacers and JO simply weren't collectively good enough on the court to get the job done.
    Is QFT allowed here?

    The fact JO could walk is a risk, but what makes it a bigger risk is that he in no uncertain terms indicated that it might be time to for a move...particularly if he finds the team is not going to get a championship.

    ...and that leads to the major point.

    When we get bounced out of the playoffs pretty easily again, the writing will be on the wall. There are two primary reasons why the JO-era is going no where: 1) The team is poorly constructed, 2) The talent level is not what it used to be.

    I think both of these problems cannot be fixed with JO in an Indiana uniform...because he's not going to get it done by himself...and we need his trade value to rebuild.

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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dat Dude View Post
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    Thats what it is. If the Boston game thing never happend, you think BBall wouldnt be trying to pull this crap again anyway. Just like you said, if the Boston thing didnt happen BBall would have found something else, so it doesnt really matter.

    He felt like this for like 2-3 years, this is not something that just came to him, he is just using the Boston thing as a excuse.

    Yes but, take Bball out of the equation and the game 8 blow up STILL HAPPEND.
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    The Cold Hard Fact is that Jermaine O'Neal is a Franchise player by salary structure ONLY.

    Leaders lead, they don't complain and they don't say maybe the team and I would be better off parted. Jermaine is looking for the best way out so that he still comes out of it smelling like a rose.

    No one has said on this thread that Jermaine lacks in skills, what he lacks is a clear undestanding of what sacrfices that he needs to personally make to make this a better "TEAM".

    I've read so many Jermaine Rah, Rah, your so great because you can score the ball posts it just reafirms my thoughts on how many of you rationally look at the pro game, especially how it is played here in Indianapolis. So many of you want to throw Rick Carlise under the bus, yet all he has done is win, and win against overwelming odds. Its not the coach people! The sooner that ALL of you Carlise bashers understand that the less moronic statements will be made.

    All Carlise has done is put a system into effect that maximises the talent on hand. He can't stop Jermanine from taking a bad shot or Tinsley from going into one of his one on one comas. These two players have the ability to step it up and winning one losing one, winning three losing three isn't getting it done.

    Players like Jeff Foster, Troy Murphy, Marquis Daniels and Mike Dunleavy are role playing parts to this bad soap opera. You can't blame them for missed shots at the end of games, more often or not Tinsley and O'Neal are taking.....Do you remember the last time Jermaine hit a game winner? Tinsley?

    When it comes right down to it look for Jermaine to hanve a different zip code this summer, with Tinsley right behind him. Regardless of if its Kevin Garnett, Loul Deng or Paul Pierce or even Greg Oden....O'Neal won't be the one leading us to an NBA championship.

    Thats a Fact, one that can't be disputed.

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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    he's not going to get it done by himself...and we need his trade value to rebuild.
    Pretty much, yeah. Although I hope the Pacers magically find an alternative solution.

  24. #24
    Member Roferr's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    I think the current group of players would blend much better with KG. JO is about on the same level as KG, but likes the fire and fight that KG has. KG's tenaciousness is contagious. I know, he's never taken his team anywhere except for one season but, again, he hasn't been surrounded with the appropriate style of players and I think that we have that style.

    KG has wanted to be away from the TWolves for quiet a while now and it may take JO and a throw in to get the job done but I think it would be a great move.
    .

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    Default Re: I have a theory... and some won't like it...

    Quote Originally Posted by odeez View Post
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    If you look at his game this year, I don't think you can complain too much.
    To me it's a litmus test in fact. If you look at JO putting up Reggie caliber numbers, albeit in different categories than Reggie, and see that as "not stepping up" or not being an on-court leader, whatever, then I think it speaks volumes.

    When a guy is trashed while dealing with injury or just struggling you might think 'hmm, that seems like a curious bias against that player". When it continues despite a drastic improvement in his game then you realize that it's not just curious. It gets a bit annoying at that point.


    And "showcasing"? One of the weakest theories going. Charges and blocked shots, SPRINTING back to stop a transition score night after night...that's all about getting traded to another team? But if it's Tinsley then he's just phoning it in on a guaranteed contract.

    It's a lose-lose if a fan simply has decided they will no longer support a player, whatever they do is a sign - play hard and it's showcasing, play weak and you don't care and need to be shipped (ironically that requires being showcased which means playing hard).

    I have ZERO problem with criticism of any player (I've criticized every player on the team at some point), but to me a SINCERE fan also recognizes when a player gets it going and is productive on court. Skewing even the good things to be signs of more bad casts a hard doubt on a person's sincerety as a fan.


    And what did Reggie do in 97 that led the team? Or even 98? He didn't do a thing. Often in the 90's he jawed at refs, glared at Spike, pogo'd at center court, bowed after hitting a shot that didn't even win the game, struggled on defense, grabbed few rebounds, handed out few assists...and so on.

    DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS, right? Well JO is a serious candidate for DPOY. I haven't seen if 82games has the charges taken numbers for THIS season yet, but I have little doubt that JO is leading the team by a wide margin (which he also did last year despite all the missed games). He's pulling down 1 or 2 per game, and blocking 3 shots a night too.

    That's the dirty work, and as far as I can tell he's setting a tone night after night that if every player stepped up and matched would make the team a top contender and a defensive juggernaut.


    And JO was right to speak up early on. They got a bit better after backing off the running game. Then they got better after swapping out Granger for Foster. Here's the first 4 sets of 9 games played, roughly falling around the 2 changes and then the team settling in.
    4-5 (3 losses to non-playoff teams)
    5-4 (1 loss to non-playoff team)
    5-4 (0 losses to non-playoff teams)
    6-3 (1 loss to non-playoff team)

    Then 0-2 which resulted in the trading of 4 players, and one of those losses was OT vs Dallas, not some poor effort. The other a bad loss to non-playoff New Jersey.

    Let's remember that the Pacers went 1-3 including blow-outs in Washington and then to BOSTON the night of JO's closed-door rant, as well as the defensive rebounding choke job in Chicago (which JO was partly to blame for). There were reasons to be frustrated.


    Reality check - if Reggie Miller does the exact same thing it would be considered a sign of his passion to win and his leadership to demand a better style of play, even/especially if it included working him off screens more for shots (which was the centerpiece of the Pacers offense when he was the "leader").

    A smart team plays off it's best player. That's a big reason why the Spurs play differently than the Suns do, yet both teams win games.

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