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Thread: The way I look at our team

  1. #1
    Member Brian's Avatar
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    Default The way I look at our team

    I usually leave all of the opinion stuff to the other members on this board,but its time for a little venting..

    NBA Finals/Championship-I dont think that anyone in here honestly believes that we will accomplish any of these things within the next 2-3 years (unless we pull off a huge trade).

    Team restoration/Cleaning House-The team restoration plan is not working out,and yes I know the season isnt over and you dont judge a teams season in February.But we are not going to make a push at the championship with this team.And we have tried to "clean house" and so far it hasnt really worked,I do believe we got the best deal out there for Jack/AL,but we wont get anything at all in return for tinsley,not a 1st round pick...nothing.

    Trade JO?-Simply put no,but I do believe we should play our younger guys more such as Ike/Williams..When I look at those 2 players boxscores they are extremely efficient,which yes we will take more losses which noone likes,but these guys will get the PT that they deserve.
    LoneGranger33 said
    Agreed. As the members of Guns and Roses once said, "every rose has its thorn".

  2. #2

    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    I agree with Brian.

    I'd also say we need a coaching staff that specializes in the development of young players.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  3. #3

    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    I don't agree with Brian.

    The players we are playing are not old by any stretch of the imagination, except Armstrong, whose PT is not in question here.

    Go with your best players and develop young talent gradually. We'll know when the cream rises to the top.

    Rick doesn't deserve bashing here. Shawne Williams is barely old enough to own a gun in Indiana. Bring him along slowly this season.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    I don't know what to think.

    This team is average but that's it.

    They don't just need time as a team to gel, there are some holes left to fill.

    Here is the thing though. This team has already changed so much over the last year. The only thing left is to trade Jermaine. If Jermaine is traded I don't want to be paying a guy like Troy Murphy or even Mike Dunleavy big money if we are going to suck.

    If we can get the 1rst or maybe even 2nd pick in the draft I would probably trade Jermaine. If it means Oden, Durant, or maybe even Jokaim Noah it might be worth it.

    What I would want for Jermaine though is:

    - Top draft pick.
    - $ relief.
    - Tinsley atleast in the trade
    - Young prospect(s) if a top draft choice isn't avaliable.

    What teams can give us that? I'm guess this issue wouldn't come up until summertime and then we would be talk the Celtics, Lakers maybe but I doubt they part with Bynum, any other team? I'm sure there would be plenty of teams interested in Jermaine but how many can give the Pacers what they want?

    This is stiill a new team. I still see some big issues but at the same time I think that they deserve a shot to develope a little more.

    I guess if we are talking of trading Jermaine what it might come down to is Ike Diogou. If the Pacers feel that he is ready for a big role and can handle some of the scoring then yes you can probably trade Jermaine if he wants to go and if you get a good offer.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    I don't mind where the team is at, but I really like where the team is headed. We finally have some intelligent players on the floor and we have some young players who are going to be very good such as Ike, Danny, Shawne, and Daniels.

    Plus our core guys are experienced but still young players such as Dunleavy, Murphy, and JO.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
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    I usually leave all of the opinion stuff to the other members on this board,but its time for a little venting..

    NBA Finals/Championship-I dont think that anyone in here honestly believes that we will accomplish any of these things within the next 2-3 years (unless we pull off a huge trade).

    Team restoration/Cleaning House-The team restoration plan is not working out,and yes I know the season isnt over and you dont judge a teams season in February.But we are not going to make a push at the championship with this team.And we have tried to "clean house" and so far it hasnt really worked,I do believe we got the best deal out there for Jack/AL,but we wont get anything at all in return for tinsley,not a 1st round pick...nothing.

    Trade JO?-Simply put no,but I do believe we should play our younger guys more such as Ike/Williams..When I look at those 2 players boxscores they are extremely efficient,which yes we will take more losses which noone likes,but these guys will get the PT that they deserve.

    I agree with you Brian. However - would you by tickets to the game if you KNEW they were going with all of the younger/inexperienced players and a very likely loss was coming? See, that is the dilimma facing TPTB. Season ticket holders do not want to sit thru loss after loss, watching young players get demolished. If you are watching on TV, they you have a different outlook.

    I've quit buying tickets because I do not like the current product being put on the floor. So again, I agree with you but that is because I am not paying to watch this team.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthman
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    Rick doesn't deserve bashing here. Shawne Williams is barely old enough to own a gun in Indiana. Bring him along slowly this season.
    I didn't intend to bash Carlisle in this thread.

    He is a good coach in some respects, but he has never been celebrated for developing young talent. I think the Indiana Pacers should have that kind of coach right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by rommie
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    I think that they deserve a shot to develop a little more.
    rommie, does "a shot to develop a little more" mean simply more time, or does it mean a coaching decision to give the young players more minutes and more attention in practices?
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie View Post
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    I don't know what to think.

    This team is average but that's it.

    They don't just need time as a team to gel, there are some holes left to fill.

    Here is the thing though. This team has already changed so much over the last year. The only thing left is to trade Jermaine. If Jermaine is traded I don't want to be paying a guy like Troy Murphy or even Mike Dunleavy big money if we are going to suck.

    If we can get the 1rst or maybe even 2nd pick in the draft I would probably trade Jermaine. If it means Oden, Durant, or maybe even Jokaim Noah it might be worth it.

    What I would want for Jermaine though is:

    - Top draft pick.
    - $ relief.
    - Tinsley atleast in the trade
    - Young prospect(s) if a top draft choice isn't avaliable.

    What teams can give us that? I'm guess this issue wouldn't come up until summertime and then we would be talk the Celtics, Lakers maybe but I doubt they part with Bynum, any other team? I'm sure there would be plenty of teams interested in Jermaine but how many can give the Pacers what they want?

    This is stiill a new team. I still see some big issues but at the same time I think that they deserve a shot to develope a little more.

    I guess if we are talking of trading Jermaine what it might come down to is Ike Diogou. If the Pacers feel that he is ready for a big role and can handle some of the scoring then yes you can probably trade Jermaine if he wants to go and if you get a good offer.
    this is the conclusion i'm coming to more and more that in order to truly improve we need to blow it up and that means trading JO. i believe he's talented and a star but i just think that the pacers in order to really go forward need to take a few steps back by trading JO and Tinsley and essentially starting clean - getting 07 picks and using them wisely and then using the financial freedom to sign quality free agents or trade for the right pieces. does JO deserve a big contract? yes he does but the size of his has really damaged indiana's chances at bringing in the right talent to go with him in a small market like this.

    that is one thing that has truly bothered me about peyton manning, he has earned the amount of money he's being paid (now) but the fact that he didn't offer to readjust his contract so they could resign edge disappointed me a lot. maybe they knew that he wasn't going to come back, regardless. but it'll be interesting to see what happens with rhodes this offseason (as well as the other free agents). because we all watch tv and see peyton in ad after ad after ad. he's certainly making plenty of money. i think it would show tremendous leadership if he would do that.

    also, who are coaches that are really good at developing young talent? name a few. because i think its more than a coach's responsibility but also the vets on the team (reggie and mjax were talking about it on rick's show last week). and what has he done with granger? or are we just going to chalk that up to danny's natural talent and rick just stumbling upon it? james and fred jones developed under rick. they just didn't get the same type of playing time with SJax, Reggie, Jermaine playing ahead of them. i think shawne has demonstrated some raw talent, but how do we get him more playing time? who do we bench? danny? dunleavy? daniels? marshall already sits as much as shawne so and marshall needs playing time to develop as well. see we've got TONS of people to develop and they can't all get playing time if we're trying to win now.

    see we complain about being mediocre but then we complain that our young guys aren't getting playing time. we can't really have it both ways.
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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    The fact of the matter is, as of now the only way to make any significant changes with this team from this point on is to either A.) Trade Granger (who doesn't make enough to get us equal value in return) or B.) Trade Jermaine. There's no way around that. So either we win, or we're going to have to look at trading someone that we don't necessarily want to.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    rommie, does "a shot to develop a little more" mean simply more time, or does it mean a coaching decision to give the young players more minutes and more attention in practices?
    Just more time. Rick doesn't play most young guys a great deal and that doesn't bug me because with Shawne I don't really think he is ready.

    However, that bugs me that he started against the Grizzles and then only played 6 minutes. That just doesn't make any sense to me. But I don't think that Rick is going to hold any player back in their development.

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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthman View Post
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    Shawne Williams is barely old enough to own a gun in Indiana. Bring him along slowly this season.

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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I thought it was a great line for a message board, but up until your verbose prose it drew nothing.

    Actually I looked up Shawn-E's age - he'll be 21 tomorrow...a year older than I thought.

    Other ages:

    Ike will be 24 in September.

    Danny G will be 24 in April

    Rawle 25 later this month

    Marquis was 26 last month; Dunleavy turned 26 last September

    Troy Murphy will be 27 in May

    Jermaine will be 29 in October

    Jamaal will be 29 the last day of this month

    Feisty was 30 last month.

    For those who want a JO trade before the trade deadline which will bring us a top 3 draft pick...Bad idea. You have not thought through any of this at all. There is no way a team can guarantee us a top 3 pick until after the draft order is decided. After the season ends. Plus if we trade them Jermaine this month, their wins will lessen their number of ping pong balls.

    To those who don't want to give Dunleavy, Murphy, Marquis, or Foster the minutes they deserve to play, that is also a really bad idea. All sitting them will do is drive down their trade value in the off season, create dissension among players and fans, and lose us games.

    There is no reward for us if we tank the rest of the season. We have no draft pick.

    The only real option is to play our best lineup and win every game we can. Who is to say what will happen? Maybe, it will turn out the team is much better than you expected.

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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    I'd only trade JO in the offseason. Trading him before that is an insult to him, this team, and it's fans.

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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy View Post
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    I'd only trade JO in the offseason. Trading him before that is an insult to him, this team, and it's fans.
    Good point....without JONeal......its unlikely that we will make the Postseason...much less any decent run in the Playoffs. As many have pointed out.....without JONeal....TPTB aren't putting out a decent "product"....and the fans know it.

    I still stick to my prediction that if we don't make it through the 1st round of the playoffs or even get bounced in 5 games in the 2nd round of the Playoffs....that JONeal and Tinsley will be traded in the offseason....simply cuz the "product" isn't good enough to sell.... and the team is retooled ( NOT REBUILT ) around Granger/Marquis/Foster/Shawne/Dunleavy/Murphy

    However, if we make a solid run in the 2nd round of the Playoffs and even lose in 6 games.....I'm not sure what TPTB will do. The "product" wasn't good enough to win it all...but it was good enough to make a solid run in the Playoffs.
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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by FSU-IU View Post
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    I agree with you Brian. However - would you by tickets to the game if you KNEW they were going with all of the younger/inexperienced players and a very likely loss was coming? See, that is the dilimma facing TPTB. Season ticket holders do not want to sit thru loss after loss, watching young players get demolished. If you are watching on TV, they you have a different outlook.

    I've quit buying tickets because I do not like the current product being put on the floor. So again, I agree with you but that is because I am not paying to watch this team.

    Yes I do understand what you are saying,but for me as a lifelong pacers fan the way the team looks as of now.If TPTB came out and just told us fans "We know things arent going the way we want,but we are going to get back to the top,we just have to take some time...younger guys...blah blah"

    I would respect that ALOT more than what they are doing now..which is basically trying to convince us that the team as it stands now is a title contender.

    So you have to ask yourself,what is more insulting?...An orginazation telling you "oh yea,these guys...we are gonna go far with these guys"..with both you and TPTB knowing that it is a lie.

    Or an orginazation coming out and saying "Listen,we want to win just as bad as you,but please be patient,have confidence in us..we will get back to the top but we have to do some rebuilding"...or retooling or whatever the word for this team is this week.
    LoneGranger33 said
    Agreed. As the members of Guns and Roses once said, "every rose has its thorn".

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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    The team is only just starting to find its identity. As Rick said on his show this week, they will have to learn to become a more efficient team. I think that either in this trade window or in the offseason, there will be a trade to thin out the front court rotation somewhat, to free up time for Shawne and Ike.

    I think we need some young talent at PG and maybe another shooter, but I like where we are at and where we are going. I think we are maybe one good addition from being a contender in the East.

  17. #17

    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    The nucleous of this team is pretty decent. Two things are missing to make us a champsionship caliber team...a slashing point guard like Tony Parker of the Spurs and a consistent ice in his veins shooting guard like Reggie. The rest of the team is pretty solid as complimentary players.

    Come on Donnie...make some deals...we're not that far from being a serious contender with these two additions to our lineup. JO, Granger, Dunleavy, Daniels, Ike, Shawne, Foster....we have some high quality players on our roster.....we just need a slasher and an outside scorer.

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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by NashvilleKat View Post
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    The nucleous of this team is pretty decent. Two things are missing to make us a champsionship caliber team...a slashing point guard like Tony Parker of the Spurs and a consistent ice in his veins shooting guard like Reggie. The rest of the team is pretty solid as complimentary players.

    Come on Donnie...make some deals...we're not that far from being a serious contender with these two additions to our lineup. JO, Granger, Dunleavy, Daniels, Ike, Shawne, Foster....we have some high quality players on our roster.....we just need a slasher and an outside scorer.
    Yeah I do agree with what you are saying...But where/how are we going to get a "reggie type shooter" "tony parker slasher". Without dealing JO..or someone else we dont wanna part with.

    Tinsley will not bring us a reggie/parker type of players.
    LoneGranger33 said
    Agreed. As the members of Guns and Roses once said, "every rose has its thorn".

  19. #19

    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Donnie has to work his magic, finding another JO sitting on the end of a bench somewhere...2nd or 3rd year players who can't break into the starting lineup but have enermous potential. We all booed when Donnie chose Reggie over Alford and when he traded D.Davis for JO. Walsh knows what he's doing...those diamonds are out there, he just has to find them. I don't think Donnie will retire until he puts this team back together as a title contender.

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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by NashvilleKat View Post
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    Donnie has to work his magic, finding another JO sitting on the end of a bench somewhere...2nd or 3rd year players who can't break into the starting lineup but have enermous potential. We all booed when Donnie chose Reggie over Alford and when he traded D.Davis for JO. Walsh knows what he's doing...those diamonds are out there, he just has to find them. I don't think Donnie will retire until he puts this team back together as a title contender.
    While I do agree with what you say..even donnie himself will tell you that a talent like JO comes along maybe once every 10 years.I hope he can work some magic..But I think that 90% of the people on here are expecting him to put together a huge trade to bring in at least 1 all-star if not 2 all-stars..with us not giving anything in return.

    Just go look at all these threads,the trades that people come up with are insulting.Everyone is like "well we can give them tinsley & harrison" for and then this is where is gets funny "we can get ray allen for those two".Then comes the justification "they get a scoring pg who needs a change of scenery,and they get young,big talent in harrison who only needs some PT".

    I mean,come on even my girlfriend who has watched maybe 3 nba games in her life wouldnt do the trades that people bring up on here.

    But the thing that gets me about it is that people are really expection Donnie to pull it off,then they get upset with the team when they dont.
    LoneGranger33 said
    Agreed. As the members of Guns and Roses once said, "every rose has its thorn".

  21. #21
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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
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    While I do agree with what you say..even donnie himself will tell you that a talent like JO comes along maybe once every 10 years.I hope he can work some magic..But I think that 90% of the people on here are expecting him to put together a huge trade to bring in at least 1 all-star if not 2 all-stars..with us not giving anything in return.

    Just go look at all these threads,the trades that people come up with are insulting.Everyone is like "well we can give them tinsley & harrison" for and then this is where is gets funny "we can get ray allen for those two".Then comes the justification "they get a scoring pg who needs a change of scenery,and they get young,big talent in harrison who only needs some PT".

    I mean,come on even my girlfriend who has watched maybe 3 nba games in her life wouldnt do the trades that people bring up on here.

    But the thing that gets me about it is that people are really expection Donnie to pull it off,then they get upset with the team when they dont.
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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
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    While I do agree with what you say..even donnie himself will tell you that a talent like JO comes along maybe once every 10 years.I hope he can work some magic..But I think that 90% of the people on here are expecting him to put together a huge trade to bring in at least 1 all-star if not 2 all-stars..with us not giving anything in return.

    Just go look at all these threads,the trades that people come up with are insulting.Everyone is like "well we can give them tinsley & harrison" for and then this is where is gets funny "we can get ray allen for those two".Then comes the justification "they get a scoring pg who needs a change of scenery,and they get young,big talent in harrison who only needs some PT".

    I mean,come on even my girlfriend who has watched maybe 3 nba games in her life wouldnt do the trades that people bring up on here.

    But the thing that gets me about it is that people are really expection Donnie to pull it off,then they get upset with the team when they dont.

    I agree with most of what you're saying. Yes a talent like Jermaine doesn't come along often. If we end up being an early exit in the playoffs, that tells me (and probably most of the Pacer fans) that this product isn't working. Answer this for me: How do we have any chance of getting some pieces in here that work for this team without trading Jermaine? Who on this team makes the money & puts up the numbers that would net us a player or 2 players that could possibly be a good fit and maybe improve this team? Would you rather trade Jermaine now while he's coming off one of his best seasons KNOWING he could quite possibly opt out of his contract after next season if we don't do any better? Or do we keep him and be pressured into just getting SOMETHING for him to rid us of the risk of losing him for nothing next season?

    Were at a very low risk at this point if we want to trade him off. Ike Diogu is showing signs of what he can do, and he'll only get better with some practice and game experience. He gives us the ability to trade Jermaine before he turns 30 (and probably loses value) and get something of equal value in return. Like it or not, this offseason will be the best time to trade Jermaine, and we really should go through with it.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy View Post
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    I agree with most of what you're saying. Yes a talent like Jermaine doesn't come along often. If we end up being an early exit in the playoffs, that tells me (and probably most of the Pacer fans) that this product isn't working. Answer this for me: How do we have any chance of getting some pieces in here that work for this team without trading Jermaine? Who on this team makes the money & puts up the numbers that would net us a player or 2 players that could possibly be a good fit and maybe improve this team? Would you rather trade Jermaine now while he's coming off one of his best seasons KNOWING he could quite possibly opt out of his contract after next season if we don't do any better? Or do we keep him and be pressured into just getting SOMETHING for him to rid us of the risk of losing him for nothing next season?

    Were at a very low risk at this point if we want to trade him off. Ike Diogu is showing signs of what he can do, and he'll only get better with some practice and game experience. He gives us the ability to trade Jermaine before he turns 30 (and probably loses value) and get something of equal value in return. Like it or not, this offseason will be the best time to trade Jermaine, and we really should go through with it.
    Where did you get the idea that Ike at any stage of his career will be able to replace JO ?

    Not a chance in the next 2 years I would say, not even if he played 30 mpg.

    Equal value for JO, meaning ? KG ? how much more is there left out there on dysfunctional teams that are of the same talent level?

    Ohh, wait, Oden comes out this year and we trade JO for him, only to see him fail in the years after whilst we are a patient "Celtic" replacement at the bottom of the league or going to do a great Hawks impresssion or become the Indiana Bulls.

    Trade O'Neal for something less then KG and I predict that CFH attendance will drop to record lows of < 7500 nightly and the team will be on it's way out of town within 5 years, bought by LB and relocated to a "casino friendly" place.
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    Default Re: The way I look at our team

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Where did you get the idea that Ike at any stage of his career will be able to replace JO ?

    Not a chance in the next 2 years I would say, not even if he played 30 mpg.
    I've seen a lot of what Ike can do even before he landed in Golden State. But I didn't say he's at the stage now. I said with a little practice and more GAME EXPERIENCE he'd be a much better player. If he got 30mpg, I think he'd turn into a beast in the East. I remember a lot of people saying the same thing you're saying now when we first got Jermaine.

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Equal value for JO, meaning ? KG ? how much more is there left out there on dysfunctional teams that are of the same talent level?
    Poor choice of words when I said equal value. I should have said "a player or players that fit what this team is trying to accomplish".

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Ohh, wait, Oden comes out this year and we trade JO for him, only to see him fail in the years after whilst we are a patient "Celtic" replacement at the bottom of the league or going to do a great Hawks impresssion or become the Indiana Bulls.
    I'd rather risk losing O'Neal to free-agency and see his salary come off the books than to trade him for an Oden experiment. I'm not an Oden fan, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Trade O'Neal for something less then KG and I predict that CFH attendance will drop to record lows of < 7500 nightly and the team will be on it's way out of town within 5 years, bought by LB and relocated to a "casino friendly" place.
    Well it can also drop if JO asks to be traded and we have to honor it. It would also drop if JO decided to opt out after the 07-08 season and leave us with no replacement. If Jermaine hadn't mentioned that he might consider opting out, or that he might ask for a trade at the end of this season, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. If this season ends and we got nowhere in the playoffs, we need to look at trading Jermaine. Nobody else on this team can be traded to bring us a player that might be an improvement [team wise] to our roster.You did read THIS right?

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