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Thread: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So basically you hate the idea that people can vote the way they want to?

    Does it really matter if he would vote that way? No, that's HIS vote and his right.
    I don't think that's the point he was trying to make.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    First of all, legally we all get civil unions; marriage is the religious side of it. So let that be left up to the Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc., but to deny civil unions is stupid.

    Secondly, I dare any of you who think being gay is a choice to sit down in a gay person's home and tell them to their face "You chose to be attracted to people of the game gender".

    And please, let me know what day or year it was when you decided to be straight.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Secondly, I dare any of you who think being gay is a choice to sit down in a gay person's home and tell them to their face "You chose to be attracted to people of the game gender".

    And please, let me know what day or year it was when you decided to be straight.
    It isn't a choice about who someone is attracted to. But it is a choice to act on that attraction.

    Hicks, I'm not suggesting anyone decides to be straight, but they decide to act on it.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Secondly, I dare any of you who think being gay is a choice to sit down in a gay person's home and tell them to their face "You chose to be attracted to people of the game gender".

    And please, let me know what day or year it was when you decided to be straight.
    Has it been proven? I'm not aware that it has been. Either way, I still think it's wrong. I'm not going to say I hate gay people, but I don't agree with how they live.

    http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrig...ent/twins.html

    If twins are identical, and one is gay, shouldn't the other?

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If twins are identical, and one is gay, shouldn't the other?
    Nice try... identical twins are not 100% identical.

    According to your own report, in 52% of identical twins where one brother is homosexual, the other is, as well.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth_for_Pres. View Post
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    Nice try... identical twins are not 100% identical.
    Did you even read the study? Obviously not, so I'll copy and paste the portion I was wanting you to read.

    ?The essential genetics may not directly code for homosexuality at all, but something correlated with it,? Bailey emphasizes. ?Something that?s advantageous. What is it? We don?t know. The alternative idea is that it?s simply darned hard for biology to guarantee heterosexuality every time, that it?s not a stable system. The problem with that [theory] is that if it?s hormones that set sexual orientation, they don?t seem to have much problem guaranteeing that men get penises. So, why can?t they keep sexual orientation straight? On the other hand, homosexuality is very rare?in other words, we don?t know.?
    And that's coming from a scientist that think's homosexuality is a good thing, which is shown by this quote: "In fact, considering the march of human population?some six billion and counting?I could make the argument that the planet would be a little healthier if we had more same-sex couples and fewer heterosexual couples busy pursuing their reproductive potential."

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Secondly, I dare any of you who think being gay is a choice to sit down in a gay person's home and tell them to their face "You chose to be attracted to people of the game gender".

    And please, let me know what day or year it was when you decided to be straight.
    There can be and there is obviously a lot of debate on when and where we get our "preferences" and obviously it's very hard to determine. However who could forget the quote from Batman Begins? "It's not who you are on the inside, it's what you do that defines you.". So as an example, many on this board for whatever reason are Pacer/NBA fans, and we could argue and debate the reasons why we are or when we became so. The point is however that we look at Pacers.com, watch games, formulate thoughts on the team and post them because of our inclination to our love for the game but we do so because we choose so. It can be silly at times to say that we choose our inclinations but we have the free will to act towards or against that preference.
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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Did you even read the study? Obviously not, so I'll copy and paste the portion I was wanting you to read.



    And that's coming from a scientist that think's homosexuality is a good thing, which is shown by this quote: "In fact, considering the march of human population?some six billion and counting?I could make the argument that the planet would be a little healthier if we had more same-sex couples and fewer heterosexual couples busy pursuing their reproductive potential."
    How does that prove that identical twins should both be homosexual?
    In fact, what does that prove at all?

    Here... I can paste links, too.
    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu...y-pillard.html

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    I want to respond to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by FlavaDave
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    Clearly, we all are in favor of freedom of speech. So why are people tripping over themselves to defend a right that isn't under attack?
    It is not simply a question of speech.

    The principle of individual liberty on which America was founded means some folks will do things differently and hold different values than others. But I think people today make an assumption that was never there in the beginning, and that is that we will all be happy about each others' decisions and habits.

    If you believe in individual liberty, then you have to equally defend the homosexual and the homophobe. Because each is, in his own way, practicing individual liberty. There is no defense of the one that does not also cover the other.

    I am not espousing anything but sentiment here. Hate crimes are crimes, and should be punished vigorously. But the sentiment of hate is not a crime. (I think it is immoral, but most of you don't want to hear a moral argument.) On a strictly constitutional basis, hate is permissible, and if it is permitted then it is protected.
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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    It wasn't meant to prove that both should be homosexual. It was meant to prove that "they just don't know" why one is and one isn't.


    Obviously, considering why I bolded the two statements that I did.

    Your link doesn't say it's 100% genetics, now does it? It's more of a paper about the oppression of homosexuals, and why it's wrong. It actually uses the experiment that I already posted as it's evidence, and doesn't present any of it's own, just opinion.

    Hicks said it's genetics, and I'm saying that isn't correct, because it hasn't/can't be proven.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    WHOA WHOA WHOA Hold up.

    did Amachi make a big deal about this? or the ESPN publicity machine. Amachi booked himself on talkshows or interviews? no, ESPN's publicity would. just like actors who promote their movies, they go on to promote, which most studios / companies make actors and directors do. and authors are the same. do you think Amachi begged for the book to be released 2/14? please. that was ESPN.
    Amachi knew that it would be a big deal. Like if you build it they will come. He knew that it would get a lot of publicity. He didn't have to beg because he knew that ESPN would talk about it non stop. Amachi wrote the book because he knew it would get publicity.

    Amachi is a gay man in professional team sports. he is the first NBA player to actually come out. you know what, yes its a big story and ESPN recognized that. its a big story because he's the first and then people have to ask athletes how they would feel if 'a gay' were playing on their team. the only reason someone like tim hardaway gets asked his opinion is because Amachi is the first, its not like they're coming out of the closet left and right. its not like Amachi did this after someone else came out to capitalize cause he's gay too. why can't he tell his story? he deserves that as much as anybody who choses to write one. the problem is also the bigotry in professional sports that continues to put this story out there adn ESPN for both promoting it and maybe provoking it. if it wasn't a big deal no one would care. but players who are asked how they feel talk about "not bringing their gayness on me" (paraphrased from Randolph in PHILLY) and lebron talks about that teammate not being trustworthy. a gay player is going to hide it BECAUSE of people like tim hardaway so why would he make that known publicly?
    Yeah yeah sure he is the first gay guy to come out but I don't think it is a big story because I don't care. He isn't hurting anybody and like I said before I may not agree with it but there are a lot of things I don't agree with. I don't see it as a story but at the same time it is and there are two reasons why, one is the Tim Hardaways of the world and then two is the gay people themselves, they go along with making it a big deal.

    heres a big question: how is the hype around this truly any different from the tony/lovie black coaches storyline of the superbowl? the only difference is that hatred of homosexuality is still an acceptable form of bigotry. a black coach winning the superbowl was historic but a basketball player coming out is just for headlines? would this be different if Amachi had a long NBA career? what if instead tim hardaway came out and said he was gay? what if it was a current NBA player? would it matter if it was david harrison or danny granger or jermaine o'neal and they wrote a book that was published by ESPN and on valentines day?
    I didn't really get what the big deal was with Tony/Lovie making the Superbowl. I know that they were the first ones, they proved that it could be done, but personally, they didn't have to prove it to me. I wasn't thinking before the Pats game "oh boy we can't win this coz Dungy is black." Race has nothing to do with coaching ability. But we are not talking about how being gay affected Amachi's playing ability, we are talking about how it affects the sports world in general.

    You are right, hating gays is acceptable in this country. I don't think it is right. At the same time I don't see the need for writting a book about being gay.

    This whole story is already getting a lot of publicity I don't see how this could be a much bigger story current player or not. Sure if it was a superstar I guess but this is already all people can talk about. Those are some good questions though. I can say this, I don't watch Jermaine because he is enagaged. If he was gay i'd still watch him. How would the majority of the world react? I don't know. Let me say this though, if Amachi wouldn't have made it a big deal it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal. You don't have to write a book, you don't have to do interviews. However I can understand that he wanted to make money but by doing that he makes it a much bigger deal than it is.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    It isn't a choice about who someone is attracted to. But it is a choice to act on that attraction.

    Hicks, I'm not suggesting anyone decides to be straight, but they decide to act on it.
    Then tell me this:

    Imagine you wake up tomorrow, and the roles were reversed.

    Suddenly 95% of the world is gay (for the sake of argument ignore the issue of procreation, etc.), that's how it has always been (and in this scenario you wake up knowing and accpeting this; you don't remember what it was like before), and the Bible wrote against being with someone from the opposite sex (in other words, being straight is a sin), and you yourself are still straight, would you choose to act gay to fit in, to do what the Bible says, and/or what peer pressure says? Or would you secretly remain straight while hoping a day would come where the majority of society accepted your lifestyle?

    Think hard about it. I don't believe any straight person would start sleeping with the same sex just to fit in with society if the roles were reversed.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    I don't know Hicks.

    There's the whole thing about prison, and men having sex with each other just because thats the only option available.

    Situational Homosexuality

    Situational, or "emergency" homosexuality is commonly defined as sexual activity with partners of the same sex that occurs not as part of a gay life style, but because the participants happen to find themselves in a single-sex environment for a prolonged period.

    Some single-sex environments that frequently become venues for situational homosexuality include prisons, military bases, ships at sea, convents and monasteries, athletic teams on tour, and boarding schools and colleges. Situational homosexual behavior is so common in these venues that in some cases nicknames have been created for those who indulge in it; for example "rugger-buggers" on rugby teams, "jailhouse turnouts" in prisons, and "lugs" for "lesbians until (college) graduation."
    http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences...sexuality.html

    Some people just want to get off, and will take what they can get.

    DISCLAIMER: No, I'm not saying that all homosexual people are gay because of this. Just saying people do act homosexually just because that's all that's available.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Then tell me this:

    Imagine you wake up tomorrow, and the roles were reversed.

    Suddenly 95% of the world is gay (for the sake of argument ignore the issue of procreation, etc.), that's how it has always been (and in this scenario you wake up knowing and accpeting this; you don't remember what it was like before), and the Bible wrote against being with someone from the opposite sex (in other words, being straight is a sin), and you yourself are still straight, would you choose to act gay to fit in, to do what the Bible says, and/or what peer pressure says? Or would you secretly remain straight while hoping a day would come where the majority of society accepted your lifestyle?

    Think hard about it. I don't believe any straight person would start sleeping with the same sex just to fit in with society if the roles were reversed.
    I would take the bibles viewpoint and believe it okay. However, do to my own preference I would just abstain from sex altogether. People can you know.

    However the bible does condemn homosexuality and the gay lifestyle, and for me that makes it wrong.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Most all human traits, especially behaviorial ones, are controlled by MULTIPLE genes simultaneously. For example there are at least half a dozen genes that are each linked to depression. Same story for Parkinsonism, anxiety dosorders, obesity, etc.

    Besides the gene being present, it also has to be actively transcribed to elicit an effect. Dormant "bad" genes cause no harm. The process by which genes can be activated is complex, but environmental factors such as exposure to viruses, certain bacterial infections, and other environmental stresses can activate them.

    Thus you can see why even genetic clones may have different genes activated and thus different traits. If you know any twins, you may have recognized that they have different personalities. That is very common. But personality traits also have a genetic component. People do "inherent my Dad's temper".

    If you have a twin and are separated at birth, and if your twin is gay as an adult, there is a high probability (though not a certainty) that you will also be gay. Not 100% of the time, but about 50% if I recall correctly vs. 2-5%among non-twins. So there is no "genetic controller" but there are genetic predispositions.

    The studies I'm talking about:

    Bailey and Pillard (1991): occurrence of homosexuality among brothers

    52% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual men were likewise homosexual

    22% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual

    11% of adoptive brothers of homosexual men were likewise homosexual

    J.M. Bailey and R.C. Pillard, ?A genetic study of male sexual orientation,? Archives of General Psychiatry, vol. 48:1089-1096, December 1991.

    Bailey and Pillard (1993): occurrence of homosexuality among sisters

    48% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual women were likewise homosexual (lesbian)

    16% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual

    6% of adoptive sisters of homosexual women were likewise homosexual

    Bailey, J. M. and D. S. Benishay (1993), ?Familial Aggregation of Female Sexual Orientation,? American Journal of Psychiatry 150(2): 272-277.





    Now you can say 50% is no big deal and proves that genetics are not huge factor.

    Let's say you have a 2% chance of suffering a debilitating stroke in your lifetime. Let's say that a study showed that if both of your parents have had a major stroke then there is a 50% chance you will also have a major stroke (I know of no studies that say this, but I want to use this hypothetical). If I were your doctor I would warn you that your genetic makeup makes it 25 times more likely than the general population that you would have a stroke. I would point out that there is a genetic component to this condition. That does not mean that you are a ticking time bomb and your fate is determined. You may be lucky and few of your multiple "stroke genes" are activated.

    This is precisely what people mean when they talk about depression genes, Parkinson's genes, gay genes, obesity genes, 3-point shooting genes, etc. It does not mean 100% certainty of developing a trait, but it means an increased chance.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    It wasn't meant to prove that both should be homosexual. It was meant to prove that "they just don't know" why one is and one isn't.


    Obviously, considering why I bolded the two statements that I did.

    Your link doesn't say it's 100% genetics, now does it? It's more of a paper about the oppression of homosexuals, and why it's wrong. It actually uses the experiment that I already posted as it's evidence, and doesn't present any of it's own, just opinion.

    Hicks said it's genetics, and I'm saying that isn't correct, because it hasn't/can't be proven.
    I should clarify that I am well aware of the lack of evidence proving a biological basis for homosexuality. My intial reponse to your post was to counter your claim that IF it is gentic, then identical twins with one homosexual brother should ALWAYS have another which your own article disproves. Identical twins are not 100% identical.
    I would have to agree with Putnam that what we are doing here is basicly a moral arguement. No one is arguing against the individual liberty or freedom of speech of homosexuals or Tim Hardaway but our history as well as the histories of others show us that moral debates about hatred for hatreds sake are just as important as those involving our personal freedoms, although most times much harder to understand or resolve.
    But there is no doubt in my mind that the moral issue is directly linked to our personal freedoms. Most times unfounded hatred leads to crimes against our individual libertys and freedom of speech. We've seen this over and over again throughout our past. That is why I believe it is important to speak out against this type of hatred wether he has the right to speak it or not. It's just wrong. We should know better because we've seen it before.
    I respect everyones opinion on this thread and I thank you for letting me share mine.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    I think the most telling part of this story is that after a half-century of professional basketball, gay players have never once "come out" until a retired player did it in 2007.

    It's not 'decency' that keeps gay people in the closet. It's fear.

    We can all choose to participate in that culture of fear or not.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie View Post
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    Amachi knew that it would be a big deal. Like if you build it they will come. He knew that it would get a lot of publicity. He didn't have to beg because he knew that ESPN would talk about it non stop. Amachi wrote the book because he knew it would get publicity.
    well yes. of course. but this isn't like artest or TO pulling some stunt to attract attention. it isn't like amachi said "if i said i was gay, i could make a ton of money." yes he has a story that is newsworthy thats what i was saying. but the reason it has become such a major deal is ESPN's hype not Amachi's. should he not tell his story because its going to be a big deal?

    Yeah yeah sure he is the first gay guy to come out but I don't think it is a big story because I don't care. He isn't hurting anybody and like I said before I may not agree with it but there are a lot of things I don't agree with. I don't see it as a story but at the same time it is and there are two reasons why, one is the Tim Hardaways of the world and then two is the gay people themselves, they go along with making it a big deal.
    well what about people who fought for equality and civil rights in the 60s and earlier? they were making a big deal out of race. you make a big deal so that homosexuals can be treated equally. its not like race isn't still being brought up at every turn. JO talked about how the new NBA dress code was racist against NBA players, should he have not said what he believed? people are of the opinion that athletes can't be gay john amachi is an example counter to that. think of all the people who have told stories of racial discrimination throughout their lives, and bigotry they've faced. should they just be told not to make a big deal about it?

    I didn't really get what the big deal was with Tony/Lovie making the Superbowl. I know that they were the first ones, they proved that it could be done, but personally, they didn't have to prove it to me. I wasn't thinking before the Pats game "oh boy we can't win this coz Dungy is black." Race has nothing to do with coaching ability. But we are not talking about how being gay affected Amachi's playing ability, we are talking about how it affects the sports world in general.
    well right, but for many years, owners believed that a black man couldn't coach a team to win, ask tony dungy if it was a big deal to be the first coach in 2007 to win a superbowl and NOT be white. ask tony how many years and how many times he was passed over for a job because of his skin color. just don't ask him to write it down and sell it because then he'd be making a big deal out of it.

    You are right, hating gays is acceptable in this country. I don't think it is right. At the same time I don't see the need for writting a book about being gay.

    This whole story is already getting a lot of publicity I don't see how this could be a much bigger story current player or not. Sure if it was a superstar I guess but this is already all people can talk about. Those are some good questions though. I can say this, I don't watch Jermaine because he is enagaged. If he was gay i'd still watch him. How would the majority of the world react? I don't know. Let me say this though, if Amachi wouldn't have made it a big deal it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal. You don't have to write a book, you don't have to do interviews. However I can understand that he wanted to make money but by doing that he makes it a much bigger deal than it is.
    the reason i asked these questions was because people have been saying he only did this because it would create headlines. they devalue his personal experience and story. they say "well he barely played in the NBA" so that justifies thinking the story is stupid. so if it was jermaine instead or tim hardaway would that change people's reactions (as they said amachi was doing this because of his failed basketball career). i don't think it would have because ultimately its about bigotry and prejudice, and as hardaway said even if it was jordan, the team would have asked for management to trade him. so his not having been a star in the NBA has nothing to do with it.

    im glad sexual preference and skin color have nothing to do with your enjoyment of professional sports. its just sad that we actually have to articulate that type of belief.
    This is the darkest timeline.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    I would take the bibles viewpoint and believe it okay. However, do to my own preference I would just abstain from sex altogether. People can you know.

    However the bible does condemn homosexuality and the gay lifestyle, and for me that makes it wrong.
    it also promotes slavery. is that something you have to abstain from too?
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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    it also promotes slavery. is that something you have to abstain from too?
    Hey, man, you don't have to belittle the guy. He's just making a statement.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    It's not 'decency' that keeps gay people in the closet. It's fear.

    We can all choose to participate in that culture of fear or not.

    Los Angeles, thanks for this post, which confirms my earlier one. We all CAN choose to participate in that culture of fear (and hate) or not.

    But I've got a question for you. Is it also possible that sometimes discretion and privacy lead to keeping quiet, too?

    I've had a whole lot of really good sex in the past 21 years, and I've never talked about it with anyone except my wife. If I were homosexual, I think I would still feel the same about the propriety of privacy as I do now.
    And I won't be here to see the day
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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    I would take the bibles viewpoint and believe it okay. However, do to my own preference I would just abstain from sex altogether. People can you know.

    However the bible does condemn homosexuality and the gay lifestyle, and for me that makes it wrong.
    QFT.

    At the end of the day, just about every religion known to man frowns upon homosexuality. If god really intended for gay's and lesbians to interact with one another physically, the anatomy of human beings would be different.

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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    WHOA WHOA WHOA Hold up.

    did Amachi make a big deal about this? or the ESPN publicity machine. Amachi booked himself on talkshows or interviews? no, ESPN's publicity would. just like actors who promote their movies, they go on to promote, which most studios / companies make actors and directors do. and authors are the same. do you think Amachi begged for the book to be released 2/14? please. that was ESPN.

    Amachi is a gay man in professional team sports. he is the first NBA player to actually come out. you know what, yes its a big story and ESPN recognized that. its a big story because he's the first and then people have to ask athletes how they would feel if 'a gay' were playing on their team. the only reason someone like tim hardaway gets asked his opinion is because Amachi is the first, its not like they're coming out of the closet left and right. its not like Amachi did this after someone else came out to capitalize cause he's gay too. why can't he tell his story? he deserves that as much as anybody who choses to write one. the problem is also the bigotry in professional sports that continues to put this story out there adn ESPN for both promoting it and maybe provoking it. if it wasn't a big deal no one would care. but players who are asked how they feel talk about "not bringing their gayness on me" (paraphrased from Randolph in PHILLY) and lebron talks about that teammate not being trustworthy. a gay player is going to hide it BECAUSE of people like tim hardaway so why would he make that known publicly?

    heres a big question: how is the hype around this truly any different from the tony/lovie black coaches storyline of the superbowl? the only difference is that hatred of homosexuality is still an acceptable form of bigotry. a black coach winning the superbowl was historic but a basketball player coming out is just for headlines? would this be different if Amachi had a long NBA career? what if instead tim hardaway came out and said he was gay? what if it was a current NBA player? would it matter if it was david harrison or danny granger or jermaine o'neal and they wrote a book that was published by ESPN and on valentines day?
    Exactly!
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  24. #74

    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    I don't mean to get off topic, but this isn't right.


    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    (The Bible) also promotes slavery. is that something you have to abstain from too?
    Nope. The Bible does not promote slavery.

    Slavery is a human institution that existed before God called Abraham. The Bible acknowledges that slavery exists in a sinful world. That is not promoting it.

    The Bible contains passages that empowered certain western nations to put an end to slavery, which had never happened anywhere else in the non-Christian parts of the world. Read William Wilberforce and William Lloyd Garrison (England's and America's leading abolitionists) and see where their inspiration came from.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  25. #75
    Member Moses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hardaway's Comments on Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
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    it also promotes slavery. is that something you have to abstain from too?
    Both the Old and New Testaments condemn, without equivocation, the practice of man stealing. Indeed, it’s a capital offense in the old testament, not only to steal a man, but to be in possession:
    EX 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

    There is a huge difference between indentured servitude and snatching slaves up out of Africa. Please don't spew garbage around.

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