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Thread: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
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    ok anybody with an IQ of 2 could have made that call



    ok he ran a few set plays still nothing groundbreaking.



    Again an obvious coaching move i've seen people on this board wonder why he has kept his rebounders out of the lineup in the closing minutes, he finally made that adjustments after about 3 games good for him.
    Where is this criticism of RC when we win? You can't just dismiss what the coach does well as elementary, obvious, or unworthy of credit, and then point out AFTER THE FACT what could have been done better. Two great basketball minds in Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird gave this guy an extension. He hasn't ever had a losing season, he hasn't missed the playoffs. He has coached 2 Allstar teams already, and been coach of the year. Rich Carlisle is a damn good coach period.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Well it looks like we're not going to take advantage of the favorable February schedule. Quis or JO needed to battle through their nagging injuries and play tonight, but that's not my call.

    JO better sit out the All-Star game.

  3. #28
    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol Sam View Post
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    Where is this criticism of RC when we win? You can't just dismiss what the coach does well as elementary, obvious, or unworthy of credit, and then point out AFTER THE FACT what could have been done better. Two great basketball minds in Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird gave this guy an extension. He hasn't ever had a losing season, he hasn't missed the playoffs. He has coached 2 Allstar teams already, and been coach of the year. Rich Carlisle is a damn good coach period.
    Alright maybe that was a little out of line I did say Rick inevitably wasn't cause of this loss after all, just a little frustrated after a "should win" and being up by a sizeable lead and still let a team like the Sonics get away from us. I've talked about ricks horrible in-game moves before in the actual game threads during winning games, so it's not as one-sided as you might think, as a matter of fact I predicted exactly what would happen before I ever seen the play. The criticisms are just a less of an issue when we actually win the games, that doesn't make some of his bad habits any less mind-numbing and drive me up the wall. Besides anybody who would complain about rick's bad coaching moves after a win would get the cliche rebuttal "well we got the win didn't we?" and the criticism would fall on deaf ears.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
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    Besides anybody who would complain about rick's bad coaching moves after a win would get the cliche rebuttal "well we got the win didn't we?" and the criticism would fall on deaf ears.
    Yeah.. actually I could see myself doing that. The thing to think about is if Rick is making questionable decisions there might be a reasoning behind it. It might be related to the players he has available, or some trend he sees in practice. Of course he has weaknesses as a coach, but you can't string him up for that... every coach is going to bring weaknesses and strengths.

    For discussion sake, lets say RC was gone tomorrow. Who would be the next guy you'd like to see in here?

  5. #30
    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobol Sam View Post
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    For discussion sake, lets say RC was gone tomorrow. Who would be the next guy you'd like to see in here?
    As far as anybody who is potentially available or anybody I think that could do a better job out of any of the coaches in the NBA right now I can't think of one off the top of my head and that's the damning thing about it too. I honestly don't know if anyone could do any better given the circumstances. I don't want Rick gone, but I would like Rick to at least break some of his bad habits. I would be happy if Rick could instill an ounce of emotion into his coaching, he talks about how he needs his players to play with some emotion yet he doesn't show any emotion himself. I can recall one time Rick showed some emotion and that was last year when we were playing Chicago and he got thrown out of the game. Any other time he's cool collected and just looks indifferent about what's going on in the game.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac View Post
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    The Pacers led this game 10-3.
    Ah, did not make it me until into the 2nd and the Pacers were down by about 10, I just assumed they started out that way i guess.

  7. #32

    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I do need to say that Watson, a player I've wanted for 3 season now, looked impressive to me
    UB, I respect your posts... but the last two players you want on this team are not that great to begin with.. I am referring to Quis and Dunleavy..

    they may be good players, but they are not game changers... they dont forces teams to match up...

    In Stephen Jackson's defence, atleast I have read quotes that say teams prepare for Stephen Jackson .....

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Of course Teams prepare for Jax, they put metal detectors at the Players enterance!

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by stew View Post
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    UB, I respect your posts... but the last two players you want on this team are not that great to begin with.. I am referring to Quis and Dunleavy..

    they may be good players, but they are not game changers... they dont forces teams to match up...

    In Stephen Jackson's defence, atleast I have read quotes that say teams prepare for Stephen Jackson .....
    Yeah but Steven Jackson, Al Harrington are .

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Someone can correct me if I am wrong.....but we outrebounded them 53 to 35...and we still lost.....I'm guessing cuz we played cr@plike defense.....they shot 55% from the field.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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  11. #36
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
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    Yes it was the same shot and it worked earlier, but the phrase "going to the well one too many times" comes to mind. Like I said...it was predictable. regardless of whether or not it worked on play X does not mean it will work on play Y that's flawed logic.
    Yeah, remember how Reggie would always miss that shot everyone knew was coming....or ANY decent player.

    WTF surprise are you looking for here? Let's keep in mind that whatever they choose to do, the player has to be able to make the play. Just a bit before that Murph forced a drive to the lane when nothing really opened up outside for him. That was a charge, just part of the collapse.

    They ran a standard PnR with Foster on that final play and the Sonics jumped all over it with pressure. And again the biggest issue is that Tins drew lots of attention and yet the Pacers still couldn't put back the offensive rebound, just as they failed to pull in the defensive rebound after Ray missed his shot.

    At some point you have to execute. Tricks are not what most late game plays in the NBA (for any team) are built on.

    And finally, do you really think Tins scored the other layup on pure surprise, that the Sonics "never saw it coming"? Like any other late shots, it comes down to who can make a play more than anything.


    Murphy came off his man while watching the Ray miss bounce and that space is explicitly how they got the rebound and bucket (plus Tins fouling when he grabbed his arm in an attempt to stop the putback). When the ball went up both Foster and Murph had inside position on their guys. By the end of the play this wasn't true. That's execution and if they complete that task they win the game, period.


    Anyway, the concern should fall much, much more on how they lost their late lead to the point that they needed to make a bucket.

    74-83, DunDun in for Granger (and put back on Allen)
    88-90, Granger returns for Dunleavy and they procede to go back up by 7 at one point 92-99

    With the game 94-99 you have Granger miss, Murph rebound and miss, Foster rebound and miss (boy, that sounds oddly familiar).

    Ray hits a jumper.

    Tins scores 1 of 2 after drawing a foul.

    Watson layup (off Ray play)

    Murphy charges in an awkward drive. Then at the other end his guy scores and he fouls him for the 3pt play.

    Tins makes the layup for the final lead.

    Ray misses, offensive board and score for final points.


    So to recap, Ray Allen was the focus of basically every trip and when he missed a shot or dished it, other guys rebounded for scores or made inside shots. When Tins missed the Pacers couldn't put it back in, let alone get fouled doing so. I wasn't even that happy with Tins in the 2nd half, but he did score on 2 of the 3 trips his number was called. That's better than Murph, Granger and Foster were able to do.


    But it was the gameplan and not the execution. Knowing that Ray was taking that final shot didn't seem to keep the Sonics from winning. I'd love an explanation on why that is since it's so obvious that the final play call being obvious ruins games, whereas rebounding aces getting beat on the boards late or missing putbacks is standard for winning efforts.

  12. #37
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    I never said that the other players weren't expected to move, I said they didn't move on that last play.

    Let's be honest, their entire defense was focused on Tins, and not one of our other players can get out to help Tins and get open for an easy shot?

    Of course there are ways out of a play, second and 3rd options, but none of them were available in this play because everyone of his team members was looking at how Tins and Foster were "solving" the problem.

    Then the tip by Foster (miss, what else is new) and the DG "prayer" (he had more then enough time to "gather&collect") and finally while already falling away Tins heaves a prayre on a ball falling to him.

    If either of the wingplayers had come out to "receive" the ball when Tins was looking for a way to get in (and around Jeff) they would most likely have had an easy shot, it didn't happen.

    We lost, it's not nice, but it happens, and yes it happens to many times, but still we are improving.

    Is Quis the secret answer? no way, but with JO out, I had hoped to see more of Maceo, who did well earlier in the season, or perhaps more of David, I mean 4 minutes why? he was not in foul trouble so...

    No Shawn, (who has perhaps the best shot of all our players) those are the things I don't understand.

    Ike has proven he can not pass out of a double team (yet) so that part of his game needs hard work. (and till then something that could help is getting someone come to him to "release" him?)
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  13. #38

    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Rawle Marshall is terrible. I can't believe how overrated he's become here. I wish Carlisle would stop playing him and instead play the kid with some legit upside, Shawne Williams.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Thoughts on last nights game:

    - Tinsley played well, and the team was obviously better with him on the floor than with DA. The 10-26 included probably 6 terrible shots, so if you look at it, he made 50% of the decent shots that he took. 26 shots for Tinsley is still high, but w/o JO it's more acceptable.

    - This team is awful defensively without JO. There is no one else (that played last night) who could block the average high schooler's shot. Even if JO only played defense last night and never shot, we'd have won. He'd have blocked at least 3 or 4 shots and altered who knows how many more.

    - I am a Carlisle supporter, but last night he made some strange decisions. His end of the quarter plays - which amount to DA or Tins dribbling for 10 seconds and then shooting a 3 - are juvenile. I would have loved to see Shawne Williams play a bit more against a team that likes to play small ball. I don't know why Dunleavy was ever assigned to guard Ray Allen. He tried, but he just couldn't do it. Granger and Marshall did a better job.

    - I hate the Tins-DA backcourt. I pray that this goes away once Daniels gets back, but I don't think it's going to. Nothing good comes from this. We played these two almost the whole 4th quarter and lost a 9 point lead and the game.

    - This is the first time I've really seen Diogu play. Is he really as bad at finishing as he was last night? Someone who knows more, please answer. He'd be great if he could make a lay-up and knew how to pass. His potential is obvious.

    - My wife was watching the game with me and commented in the 1st quarter that neither team seemed to be playing with any energy. She was right.

    - DA took some terrible shots, and played way too much. It's obvious that he's starting to wear down.

    - All in all this was a bad game that we should have easily won.

    - Ray Allen, if no one else noticed, is really good.
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Someone can correct me if I am wrong.....but we outrebounded them 53 to 35...and we still lost.....I'm guessing cuz we played cr@plike defense.....they shot 55% from the field.

    Yes sir, that is the reason we lost and it makes me sick, how could that be, how? 53 to 35! Play some freakin D!
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by odeez View Post
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    Yes sir, that is the reason we lost and it makes me sick, how could that be, how? 53 to 35! Play some freakin D!
    If anything it shows how much a defensive presence JO is.

    And how important to the team D he is.

    (nobody there to do his talking in the paint to tell the people where to be)
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Let's be honest, their entire defense was focused on Tins, and not one of our other players can get out to help Tins and get open for an easy shot?
    At least someone knows what i'm talking about

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    I guess I missed something about last nights game, why was JO out? And we did miss him last night for sure, we would have won that game I believe.

    Oh I see it was his knee, darn!
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Let's be honest, their entire defense was focused on Tins, and not one of our other players can get out to help Tins and get open for an easy shot?


    And what makes you think that Tinverson would have passed it to them? Let's be honest, Tins is not the "answer" to the Pacer's problems, he is the problem. Trade him or the Pacers won't have enough fans left to fill the local high school gym.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    I never said that the other players weren't expected to move, I said they didn't move on that last play.

    Let's be honest, their entire defense was focused on Tins, and not one of our other players can get out to help Tins and get open for an easy shot?

    Of course there are ways out of a play, second and 3rd options, but none of them were available in this play because everyone of his team members was looking at how Tins and Foster were "solving" the problem.

    Then the tip by Foster (miss, what else is new) and the DG "prayer" (he had more then enough time to "gather&collect") and finally while already falling away Tins heaves a prayre on a ball falling to him.

    If either of the wingplayers had come out to "receive" the ball when Tins was looking for a way to get in (and around Jeff) they would most likely have had an easy shot, it didn't happen.

    We lost, it's not nice, but it happens, and yes it happens to many times, but still we are improving.

    Is Quis the secret answer? no way, but with JO out, I had hoped to see more of Maceo, who did well earlier in the season, or perhaps more of David, I mean 4 minutes why? he was not in foul trouble so...

    No Shawn, (who has perhaps the best shot of all our players) those are the things I don't understand.

    Ike has proven he can not pass out of a double team (yet) so that part of his game needs hard work. (and till then something that could help is getting someone come to him to "release" him?)
    That's the thing about our offense. Every time someone goes inside, Granger and whatever 2-guard is playing with him just sits at the 3 point line and waits and watches. It happened with Tinsley, it happened a few times with Diogu -- though I admit the offense moves better with Diogu than it does with O'Neal, probably because Diogu doesn't take long to figure out what he's going to do with the ball once he has it.

    Lack of movement on the offensive end in those situations are something I blame on lack of coaching in this department. That said, I am going to admit that I'm ready for a new coach here, and I actually have a logical explanation for why. I'll post a thread on that, and the state of the Pacers later on.

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ALF68 View Post
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    Let's be honest, their entire defense was focused on Tins, and not one of our other players can get out to help Tins and get open for an easy shot?


    And what makes you think that Tinverson would have passed it to them? Let's be honest, Tins is not the "answer" to the Pacer's problems, he is the problem. Trade him or the Pacers won't have enough fans left to fill the local high school gym.
    I have to say you are right. For as good as TINS has been of late and him playing most of the season, it is still not enough. WE crave the Finals and I am not sure TINS should be our PG. He should have passed and that is one thing last night, we did out rebound them, but they had more assists, which means they were passing the ball.
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    I big reason why Brown got the offensive rebound that enabled him to score the winning basket is because the Pacewrs pre-rotated - Jeff came across the lane to be ready to help on Ray Allen, but then when Ray shot, Jeff tried to get into rebound position but basically he ended up blocking Murphy out and Brown got the rebound.

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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I big reason why Brown got the offensive rebound that enabled him to score the winning basket is because the Pacewrs pre-rotated - Jeff came across the lane to be ready to help on Ray Allen, but then when Ray shot, Jeff tried to get into rebound position but basically he ended up blocking Murphy out and Brown got the rebound.
    Ouch! We shouldn't have even let them get that close so that a random play like that wins the game. The breakdown occured when we let them back in when we went up by 10.
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    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by odeez View Post
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    I have to say you are right. For as good as TINS has been of late and him playing most of the season, it is still not enough. WE crave the Finals and I am not sure TINS should be our PG. He should have passed and that is one thing last night, we did out rebound them, but they had more assists, which means they were passing the ball.
    I realize you didn't see the game. However I think it's unfair to assume that because they had more assists that they were passing the ball, and we weren't. The Sonics are a much more up tempo team than we are. They run a lot more screens for their wing players (mainly because of Ray Allen's shooting ability). Because of our offensive style, odds are we're going to come out with less assists than a Western Conference team. But believe me, we were moving the ball well last night, we just failed to move the ball when we needed it most.

  25. #50

    Default Re: Pacers Vs. Sonics Postgame thread

    Maybe some have mentioned these things but just looking at the box score.

    - We attempt 20 more shots, 96-76.
    - We out rebound them 53-35.
    - We hit 13 threes compared to their 4.

    How in the world do you lose a game like that?

    We shot way to many threes I would say. However we did make almost 50% of them so how can I complain about that?

    I really am dumbfounded as to how the Sonics won. Wow.

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