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Thread: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

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    Inspiration Shade's Avatar
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    Default What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    Yes, I admit, the Colts' title has gotten me greedy.

    I can't help but wonder if Donnie and Larry were watching the parade and rally yesterday and wondering what it will take to get the Pacers to that level?

    Well, imagine the Pacers are in your hands. How do you fix this team and not only win a championship, but do so with class?

    Personally, I'm starting to think that we need to rebuild this team from the ground on up. It just doesn't seem like putting a bunch of role-players around JO is going to yield any title runs, and I don't see what second star we could pair with him while JO's still in his prime.

    Most immediately, however, I still feel you have to look at the coach if we lay a dud to end the season again. The players have either completely tuned him out or his "new" coaching style (i.e. letting Mel Mel go nuts while playing small ball to "match" the opposition) is simply not very good. For Rick to keep his job, barring a major injury to JO or something, I think the Pacers need to get to at least the ECF, and be competitive.

    I'm proud of our Colts -- they won a championship. I'm proud of our Hoosiers -- they're well-coached and play with a ton of effort and enthusiasm. But the Pacers...well, I'm still a fan, but it's honestly hard to root for this bunch of guys. They aren't very talented, and honestly, not very classy either. The latter has significantly improved with the trade, but it's still not enough. There's still too much selfishness going on out there, and too much lax play at times (especially the 1st quarter).
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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    Kobe?

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    Quote Originally Posted by indy0731 View Post
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    Kobe?
    I said "with class."
    "I'm not arguing; I'm explaining why I'm right."

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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    To me, it's all about Danny Granger. Players at his position make "the leap" in their fourth or fifth year. If he can leap to all-star level while JO is in his prime and we get a consistent point guard (ala Andre Miller), then we can get to the top.

    Unfortunately, I don't think he can make the jump that Josh Howard (among others) has made and not so soon. Even if we look to rebuild, however, it all starts with Ike, Shawne, and Danny. That's three positions covered already.

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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    A coach who's better at leading and inspiring NBA egos than managing X's and O's.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    A better shooting guard.
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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    I think the earliest we could hope to compete for a championship would be next year. My preference is to continue to make a strong push this year towards the playoffs (Yes Jim Mora, the playoffs). Give our fresh faces time to gel and develop. Look for trades that would offer a significant upgrade in our backcourt. Push for at least the second round of this year's playoffs. Make it through the first series to get the players hungry... and to make DA come back for one more year.

    Pushing for the playoffs won't hurt our draft positioning this year. I'd like to see us gain some post season experience for a good run next year. Granger will be a year better, along with many of our youngsters (Marshall, Diogu, Williams). The offseason might be a better time to address our point guard situation, rather than the middle of this season. See if we can get anyone to bite on a Harrison trade (target: 2nd round pick).

    Possibly rethink the up-tempo idea. Examine if it helps us win games. Winning games should be more important than highlight reels.

    I feel that we have the right coach for a championship team. I like our ownership. I am interested in the idea of bringing in former players/ coaches to help our team with some fundamentals. If we bring other players in, I think one of the most important aspects is whether or not they will buy into our team philosophy.

    I do not think the only goal in having a basketball team is to win a championship. Having a good team, competing for the playoffs, with a loyal fanbase is a fine start. I don't expect the owners to provide us with a championship. I expect them to position the team to give us the best chance possible.

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    10 - 32 - 50 31andonly's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    Agree with Anthem..we do not need that much, a SG who is a constant (!!) threat would solve a lot of our problems..guys like Joe Johnson, Ray Allen, Michael Redd (of course this is not going to happen, but simply guys who play the game the way those do)!

    I think we have a good team! Yesterday was a bad day, but come on, that happens and doesn't indicate anything..it simply happens! Just one of those days..
    Thank you Jeff.

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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    I don't think Anthem is saying we need a better "2-guard". I think he is saying we need a guard that shoots better.

    But I could be wrong.



    Seriously, though, if this is the way our PGs are going to play, I'd rather have Steve Francis or somebody else that plays better in this role than to convert a guy like Tinsley into it. If the PG is going to be the #2 option, and I'm certainly not a fan of that approach, then it needs to be a better shooting PG.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    I don't think Anthem is saying we need a better "2-guard". I think he is saying we need a guard that shoots better.

    But I could be wrong.



    Seriously, though, if this is the way our PGs are going to play, I'd rather have Steve Francis or somebody else that plays better in this role than to convert a guy like Tinsley into it. If the PG is going to be the #2 option, and I'm certainly not a fan of that approach, then it needs to be a better shooting PG.
    Well, maybe Francis will get bought out. That idea has been thrown around a lot, even though the Knicks have denied considering it...Would he even want to come here, though?

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_20712.shtml
    I believe we have the MLE, right?

    But I think that we are a much better team when Marquis Daniels played. He was really good for a couple games post-trade until he went down to injury. When he returns I think we'll be okay. (And he's not that old either)

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    An emphassis on winning a championship as the number 1 goal would help.

    We're too worried about being a pretender to sell tickets rather than being a contender who will sell tickets.

    Devise a vision that will lead us to a championship and then put the pieces into place that gives that vision the best chance to succeed.

    Make sure that any vision starts with class, dignity, fundamentals, disciplne, and teamwork. Any players not onboard should be shown the door. And players should know that actions speak louder than words. Make sure the fans have a team they can be proud of and get behind with their support.


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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    We need a starting calibur PG, who will share the ball, is a decent spot up shooter and plays good perimeter defense.

    A high class SG would be nice, but I think Danny has the ability to mature into a nice 2nd option and we have a decent mix of role players and young guys. Finding someway to improve the PG position should be the primary goal for until the start of next season.

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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    Well, I think we are missing some ingredients still. Here are my thoughts:

    1. We need a tougher minded, better defending, more vocal, better point guard, someone who is a better leader and player at that position than we have now. This player doesnt need to be a superstar, but he needs to be a "winning" player, preferably even someone with a championship pedigree if someone like that existed. Closest I can think of.......someone we draft in the next year or 2, or Kirk Hinrich or someone like him.

    2. We need a premier defensive player at a position we don't have one currently. This is the simplest way to become a championship team in my opinion....have a premier defender somewhere on the floor. Here Im thinking someone like Ben Wallace in his prime, or Bruce Bowen in his prime, Derrick McKey in his prime, Ron Artest without the drama and bad attitude, someone similar to that. We dont need an entire team of them, we just need 1 at one position.

    3. One more really good player, preferably someone who is either at or above the same level as Jermaine, preferably at a position and with a style of play that compliments him. I have no idea who that might be, it might have to be someone we draft or find in Europe even. Trading for this guy is tough, but someone on the level of a Ray Allen, Joe Johnson, or someone similar.

    4. I really like RC and have been a big defender of his, but it remains unclear whether he has the people skills and personality to lead a group of men to play at a sustained championship level. If a premier elite coach became available, you might have to consider pulling the trigger....not just for changes sake, but for someone with a clear upgrade.

    5. More than anything, we need the patience and vision to have a long term plan and stick with it. We need a visoion of what type team and organization we want to be, and we need the persistance and toughness and self assurdness to stick with a plan no matter what short term things are happening. If you surround yourself with good people, by and large you'll be successful.....we need to try and build this team the right way, because in the NBA, a single mistake can cost you for years and years.

    Just my opinion of course....

    tbird

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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    SvG
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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    An emphassis on winning a championship as the number 1 goal would help.

    We're too worried about being a pretender to sell tickets rather than being a contender who will sell tickets.

    Devise a vision that will lead us to a championship and then put the pieces into place that gives that vision the best chance to succeed.

    Make sure that any vision starts with class, dignity, fundamentals, disciplne, and teamwork. Any players not onboard should be shown the door. And players should know that actions speak louder than words. Make sure the fans have a team they can be proud of and get behind with their support.
    -Bball
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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    Well, I think we are missing some ingredients still. Here are my thoughts:

    1. We need a tougher minded, better defending, more vocal, better point guard, someone who is a better leader and player at that position than we have now. This player doesnt need to be a superstar, but he needs to be a "winning" player, preferably even someone with a championship pedigree if someone like that existed. Closest I can think of.......someone we draft in the next year or 2, or Kirk Hinrich or someone like him.


    We need leadership, vision and a passion for winning from the PG position.
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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    SvG

    Add SvG and subtract Tinsley. (yes!!)


    Well, it's a start. I'm not certain we can win with a team built solely around JO but I'll give him this, he's stepped up his game.
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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    5. More than anything, we need the patience and vision to have a long term plan and stick with it. We need a visoion of what type team and organization we want to be, and we need the persistance and toughness and self assurdness to stick with a plan no matter what short term things are happening. If you surround yourself with good people, by and large you'll be successful.....we need to try and build this team the right way, because in the NBA, a single mistake can cost you for years and years.

    Just my opinion of course....

    tbird
    All good points, but this one is major. TPTB have ideas, but they continue to be new ones. That is a sign of a lack of vision. The type of poor decision-making you see with lesser franchises. My guess is that this is a Bird issue.

    Now backing out of decisions is OK, but it should not be necessary so often. Whether you want to point to Saras and Jack a couple years ago...or Al just last year...they were all mistakes to acquire....or the new style of play we largely abandoned...or James White being cut. Keep in mind these are only a few criticisms in the "back out of a decision" category.

    I consider this a pattern now. JMO

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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    An elite perimeter player who's better than JO. Make it an option 1A and 1B type scenario

    edit: oops, you said realistically. In that case, a lot of luck.

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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    Realistically.......given the unliklihood of making trades to acquire the type of player that we need ( since...from a contract point of view....Tinsley, Dunleavy and Murphy are close to impossible to move )....the only realistic moves that we can make is the "all or ( close to ) nothing" type moves.

    We tear down the whole thing and start from scratch ( trade JONeal with Tinsley and build off of a different younger core of players...like Granger/Shawne/Marquis/Ike/Dunleavy/Murphy/Foster )...or we make minor moves for cheapie role players ( like another SG that can shoot ) and continue down our current path.

    Since we no longer have any realistic pieces to trade that another team will take.....I really doubt that we make any other moves this season....unless we start to include Foster, Granger and Shawne in the trade "grab-bag".
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    We need Granger and either Diogu and/or Williams to become impact players. We also could use an upgrade in the backcourt. I think eventually Foster will have to be moved to allow more consistent playing time for Diogu. Maybe he could be one of the pieces to help us get the backcourt upgrade.

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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    This is a great thread. Thanks for starting it. Speculating about how to 'fix' the Pacers is about all that we have left this season -- I don't consider finishing 7th or 8th in the East much of an accomplishment. So, here's a three-step program for redemption of a once-solid franchise --

    1. The first thing is to replace the front office. We don't have competent people making decisions about player personnel. I don't have any idea what's happened to Walsh. He was a master for many years but outside of drafting Granger, he hasn't made a good decision since he traded Dale for Jermaine. I can't even talk about the dumb things that his side-kick from Boston has done. Larry Legend must go. He wouldn't know talent if it fell on his golf bag.
    2. We need a new coach. I've lost a lot of respect for Carlise. He's personally decent and I admire the fact that he resists temptations to manage players via the press. This no small thing, but by itself, it's not nearly enough. In a nutshell, he can't coach. He plays favorites with playing time and so let's people rot on the bench for not discernable reason (Maceo!). What risk would he have taken last night, for example, in letting Maceo play? Rick doesn't know anything about X's and O's. The team plays the same lame offense, game after game, even though the rest of the league long ago figured out how to defend it. We have no defense. Players don't get better (other than DG which I honestly can't explain), even from one season to the next -- let alone from one game to the next! We rarely score at the end of a quarter because Rick's brain-trust can't design a play that gets a reasonable shot from a 40% shooter. The bottom line, he can't adjust his game plan to the talent that he has. My guess? The players respect Rick as a man, but he doesn't inspire them. That's why they play flat so often. We will never go anywhere with any group of players until we have a different coach. Note: do you think Dungy knows anything about b-ball?
    3. Player-wise, we need two things. A center that can play tough defense, rebound and score when he's wide open. And, we need a point guard. Even if you like JT (and, I don't), we don't have anyone to come off the bench and give Jamal 15 minutes of rest per game. That's not too much to ask as most every team in the league has a PG backup younger than 38. As for shooting guard, I'm happy with Quis -- assuming he's not our new Bender/Harrison.

    In summary, like most businesses, it's hard to have a winner until you have excellent leadership. That's really the core of the problem with the Pacers. The front office and the coach have to be replaced.

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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    a) Wrong Van Gundy. We need Jeff, not Steve.

    b) I'm totally convinced that if we acquired a pass-first PG that Rick would try to change them, too. What many of us want from the PG is not the same as what the coach wants, and the frustration with Tinsley, though completely merited, is misguided.

    Let's be honest here, Tinsley is playing more and more like AJ (style-wise) with each passing game.

    Since neither Rick nor Tinsley ever really comment on the PG play, I don't know why anyone would expect a different style of play from another PG if Tinsley were traded.

    So we might as well get a PG that is good at playing in the style Rick wants. Or, better yet, replace Rick as soon as JVG is available.

    EDIT - madison, that's a great post. Except I'd disagree with you on Rick's x's and o's. I think he IS good at the x's and o's, even though most pundits on here think that style of play is "boring". (and they're right, it is boring, but it is also the most effective way to use the players on this team.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  24. #24
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    nothing wrong with Stan Jay, except perhaps his looks
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    Default Re: What would it (realisitcally) take to make this a championship team?

    He's not in Jeff's league, though.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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