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Thread: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

  1. #101
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    I mean do we have a play that calls for getting Danny Granger the ball at spot X on the floor for a shot? Or do we have a play where we run a pick so Rawle Marshal can get something?
    Yes, they do. They still work the give and go like they did with Jack-JO, but usually with someone like Rawle.

    And I think that some of the "JO plays" you see are intended to get someone like Murphy the shot the entire time. There is post and wait on the double, and then there is the 2 man game between bigs, and that's not the same thing. The Pacers do both.

    Sure they don't do this like Utah, but I don't think their frontline contains enough physical offensive talent to run that system anyway.


    I'm only 22 but It kills me that the city won't support the Pacers like they do the Colts,
    It's only been about 4 years since it was just the opposite. Remember, the Colts couldn't even sell-out 2 home games in the 2003 season. Blacked out for local TV. Think about that. It's not like Manning, Marvin, Edge, Wayne and Freeney weren't on that team and they weren't worth watching.

    In 98-2000 fans couldn't have cared less about the Colts. That's how Tennessee got 5000+ fans into the dome for a playoff game.

    I love Nap, but it's smalltown and fickle as hell.

  2. #102
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Jamaal looks very uncomfortable on the court, and his shots are often short because he looks tentative. This is not his "natural" way of playing the PG position. I think he's second-guessing himself a lot.
    I disagree. I think he is just hurting. He's made that lane floater and the Duncan post-bank shot at a great clip previously in his career.

    I do agree that Rick probably wants to see 12-14 shots from the PG at this point, mostly because a balanced offense needs some threats off the dribble and this team only has 2 - Tins and Quis.

    Quis being out does hinder this team since Jack was swapped for DunDun.

    Last night Dunleavy drove the lane one time and at the rim he passed it right to Harrington. It happened so quickly that it bounced right off Al and out of bounds (luckily for the Pacers). That's the problem, that says a lot about his game going to the rim.

    Who on the Pacers is going to show up-fake on a defender like Granger and then step past him for the dunk like Jackson did? No, seriously, who has that in their skill-set? No one on the roster. Rawle and Granger aren't there yet, Quis isn't a dunk-finisher type, most of the other guys are spot ups or catch and shoot types, even one of our bigs (Murph).

    Right about now Fred Jones would really help this team a ton, even if he can only go to his right.

  3. #103
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    He may have played point forward in the past , but it was for losing teams. His 1.6 to 1 TO/AST ratio says he doesn't protect the ball well enough to initiate the offense. He's bench material for a playoff team. His career stats say he's an all-around mediocre player, less than 5 boards a game, 2.5 assists, no steals or blocks, a relatively low shooting % (.431) and 10.5 points a game.

  4. #104

    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    He may have played point forward in the past , but it was for losing teams. His 1.6 to 1 TO/AST ratio says he doesn't protect the ball well enough to initiate the offense. He's bench material for a playoff team. His career stats say he's an all-around mediocre player, less than 5 boards a game, 2.5 assists, no steals or blocks, a relatively low shooting % (.431) and 10.5 points a game.

    Dr. Goldfoot, I think it was you that made the thread about the over-emphasis of the need for a high-quality starting PG by pointing out Ron Harper/etc and how he was the starting PG for the champion Bulls and Lakers.

    Dunleavy's stats aren't great, but for fun I thought I'd compare his #s, as a SG (mostly), to Ron Harper's.



    Ron Harper

    1.77 A/TO ratio
    13.8 PPG
    44.5 FG%
    3.9 APG
    1.7 ST
    0.7 BLK


    So Ron Harper averaged slightly better numbers in slightly more minutes. I'm not saying Dunleavy is better or worse but their numbers are close and comparable. Harper hits a higher % with more points/assts per 40, Dunleavy rebounds more and turns it over less. Either way, Harper was able to help initiate the offense with a similar AST/TO ratio, so I don't think that's much of an issue.

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    With Dunleavy playing point-forward and running the offense, you could afford to have a backcourt of Daniels and Greene or Daniels and McLeod.

    If Dunleavy is playing point-forward, you primarily need the PG to prevent dribble penetration and to provide assistance getting the ball into the front court if the other team is pressuring you. I assume that, unlike Saras, these two guys are capable ballhandlers even if they aren't great at running the offense (there is an important distinction there).

    The only possible drawback to this is moving Granger back to the sixth-man role, but I think Granger is showing better assertiveness in that role. Its like he's too passive if he's on the court with JO - afraid to tip the scales.

    DA makes a lot of mistakes - turnovers, ill-advised shots, defensive gambles - even if he hustles. If he's not able to play at an extraordinarily high energy level, he's a net-negative. And he's playing way too many minutes to sustain this level of performance. I fear what's going to happen in April if we don't develop either Greene or McLeod to take some of the pressure/ minutes off him now. This is about seeing the forest (building a team for the playoffs) instead of the trees (regular season games.)
    well yes, daniels could be a solution if he wasn't injured. so thoughts for the future. but i was talking in terms of last night. it was mcleods first game of the season. dunleavy hasn't shown the ability to command rick's offense yet. greene cannot seem to run an offense much less rick's. as a coach who isn't trying to tank the season, what choice do you have? armstrong or tinsley playing PG. and as we've mentioned, some of DA's numbers aren't fantastic. he's a solid bench energy player, but shouldn't be starting at his age. so that leaves Jamaal. now i am an advocate of having quis start with dunleavy granger oneal murphy/foster. i can't remember really seeing that lineup but i'd like to experiment with it. i appreciate the fact that quis brings a lot of energy off the bench but maybe he could get us off to a better start that we truly need.

    i don't look at it as sacrificing a season or half a season. because i think most people predicted the pacers would be around .500 the entire season, and develop our young talent. now i think we should be doing more of that developing but i think we've seen some good things from shawne and rawle. danny has demonstrated some improvement offensively (needs to be more assertive) and his defense does still need work. but development-wise he has improved. now we have Quis and Diogu who need to develop and get Dunleavy, Murphy and McCleod more involved in the team. i think we sacrificed what we could without diving into the Oden sweepstakes by signing Al in the off-season. i certainly never thought he was the piece to take us from where we were to where we want to be, but i thought after we developed our talent, we'd have a better idea of what other parts we needed this offseason and could play with the better free agent market. so i think this season was more or less decided in july.
    This is the darkest timeline.

  6. #106
    Member quiller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Dr. Goldfoot, I think it was you that made the thread about the over-emphasis of the need for a high-quality starting PG by pointing out Ron Harper/etc and how he was the starting PG for the champion Bulls and Lakers.

    Dunleavy's stats aren't great, but for fun I thought I'd compare his #s, as a SG (mostly), to Ron Harper's.



    Ron Harper

    1.77 A/TO ratio
    13.8 PPG
    44.5 FG%
    3.9 APG
    1.7 ST
    0.7 BLK


    So Ron Harper averaged slightly better numbers in slightly more minutes. I'm not saying Dunleavy is better or worse but their numbers are close and comparable. Harper hits a higher % with more points/assts per 40, Dunleavy rebounds more and turns it over less. Either way, Harper was able to help initiate the offense with a similar AST/TO ratio, so I don't think that's much of an issue.

    Yes but one key difference was Harper was a tenacious one on one defender and able to hold his own against a quicker point guard and yet still not be overpowered by a large point guard as well... edit and also in both cases he really wasn't responsible for initiating the offense.. see Jordan/Pippen/Bryant....
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  7. #107
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    So, Tins breaks the plays, bad start, his fault to many shots:
    (over the previous 4 games JT was 56% shooting adn 7 Ast avg)
    So let's look at what really happend in the first half:

    1st play: open pull-up JT : miss
    2nd play: pass Dun > dribble > miss
    3rd play: post-up JT kickout Murph > miss 3
    4th play: post-up JT kickout JO miss
    5th play: break, fake pass left, open jump miss
    (9.30)
    6th play: pass > Dun > DG miss
    7th play: pass > JO > Dun > Murph > JO score
    8th play: pass > DG > JO > travel
    (7.30) 4-14 Time out
    play not shown, miss
    drive > lay-up > miss > JO reb > 2FT
    break > Dun > DG > score
    pass > Dun > JT > JO (foul 2T)
    pass > JO score
    Lob to Dun, missed
    pass > Murph > JT > DG > miss
    pass > DG > JO > score
    pass > Dun miss 3
    pass > Murph miss
    Drive & Dish > JO fouled 2FT
    3.01 JT out DA in 15-25
    end of 1 : 18-34
    2nd: 10.00 Time out 19-40
    JT back in
    pass > DA > JO miss
    JT trips, > DA > Dun score
    pass > JO > DA > JO > JT Drive layup
    pass > DA > JO (st)
    pass > DG 3
    pass > DA > JO > DA > JT miss
    JT clearance, layup score
    pass > Dun miss
    nreak Dun > DA score
    JT Drive blocked
    pass DG miss
    pass > DA > Dun miss
    pass > DG > JO > SW > JO (oob)
    JT drive pull up score
    Break dribble JT lost/recover/score
    Break JT travel
    pass > JO > JT miss 3
    long pass DA score
    pass > SW miss 3
    drive JT blocked . JO (time out)
    pass JO > JT > JO miss
    pass > Mc > JO > Mc > JT > MC drive & loss
    JT Drive & layup score
    JT Drive fouled 2-2
    JT Drive & Dish JO lost ball
    JT Drive & Layup score (after reb bs)
    JT Drive and layup score

    idiotic 3 Ellis 42 - 65


    So, between 10.00 in the 1st ( we're minus 10 here) and 3.01 in th 2nd we lose another 11 pts down.
    We never recovered from that.
    Most starters were out during that time.

    For a "shoot first" I see a lot of "pass"

    sometimes it helps seeing a replay.

    But what this break down does not show is the amount of time that Tinsley had the ball prior to the first pass or shot. I swear (I didn't count so if somebody says I'm wrong then I'll just accept it) it felt like Jamaal had the ball for 14-17 seconds on almost every offensive set he was in last night. Yeah, that seems kind of high to me as well so maybe it's some hyperbole but my gut feeling is that he had it for at least 10 seconds if not more.

    I'm sorry but whenever he is in there the offense is now grinding to a halt & it has been far worse since the trade & frankly it has gotten worse & worse each game.

    The funny thing is that I loved Jamaal as a rookie. I honestly thought we were looking at Mark Jackson part two.

    But now that he is Allen Iverson part two I just have no use for him. I didn't want the original A.I. & I don't want his duplicate.

    I'll say it now, I can't stand players who dominate the ball. That's why I'm not a fan of J.O.'s, that's one of the reasons I didn't like Artest & it's now the reason I can't stand seeing Jamaal in the game.

    I was rooting for Keith McCloud to get in the game, if that tells you anything. I would have suffered threw watching Orien Greene's offense if it meant less of Jamaal during that game.

    Is it Rick? I'll say this, I don't know how he couldn't at least not be partially behind it.

    I've read U.B.'s theory on this & while I find it interesting & frankly believable, I can't believe for a min. that Rick would just let Jamaal ruin the game because he was afraid to sit him.

    Oh what am I thinking? He was afraid to bench Artest so I guess there might be some truth to this.

    Anyway, I still am in the sun. Honestly I am.

    So let's hope Jamaal snaps out of this. Soon.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  8. #108
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    I don't care what the debate on Jamaal Tinsley is:
    "Jamaal Tinsley has averaged 21.8 points, 7.8 assists, 2.6 steals and .506 shooting" is just insane. Insane. Absolutely insane. I know stats lie but how much can that lie? I mean, damn! 22 and 8 on 50% shooting? There is not a single PG in the world who wouldn't be proud of those numbers.

  9. #109
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    04-05 NYK 82 82 40.0 .462 .354 .834 0.6 2.4 3.0 8.1 1.5 0.1 2.84 2.30 21.7



    Stats may or may not lie, but they certainly can be misleading.

    I give you another point guard who had a season of very similar stats. Would you consider him a good point guard? Better yet, would his team mates?

    Travis Best could have averaged 8 assist a game if given the reins of the team, however just because he got assist doesn't mean he can run an offense.

    Same for Jamaal. When he is on he is on, there is no doubt about that. He can hit his man for a perfect pass like few others can. However his new tendancy to dominate the basketball is just killing off what should have been a far better offensive structure.

    Is it all his fault? I have no idea, I'm not giving Carlisle a free pass on this one myself. But I just can't stand the way he played that game vs. the Warriors. In fact I'd rather sit threw a best Ron Artest highlight film than watch that again.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  10. #110
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Peck, Jay, UB, While I agree (of course) with Rexnom in his last post here, a few small things:

    Peck, avg 1st pass was made at th 18 sec mark.
    UB, Rick's hands are everything but tied, he has a new title, he benched (and suspended) Jax with no hesitation whatsoever and
    Peck & UB; DA in an interview THIS WEEK said they are encouraging Tins to "go more for his shot".
    Now, Tins has said he learned a lot from DA this season, sees him as a big brother/father type and he has been clear in the past he was unhappy with his role (not pertaining to shots but to play-calling) so he's not shy to speak his peace.
    If it benefits the team (and JT missed one game with an injury, so we CAN do without him "if needed") Rick should and would not have 1 second of doubt in benching or suspending him.
    It is your conclusion he would get sick in that case and not play for 5 games, that is easy to check and if not real, then there are legions of chances to do something about it.

    I see Tins taking shots, Rick indicating he has to, DA encouraging him to do it, what more do you want to hear/see to make this Rick's idea, outside of Rick's history ?

    Yes he started of lousy (he's playing on a gimpy ankle, Buckner/Denari were clear in that) but after going 1-8 he went 8-16 after that (which is in line with his avg over the last 4) before this "bad game & wise he was doing 56% over the last 3, which is almost double of what Dun is shooting, who do you want to shoot, the guy who avg's 50% or the guy who barely breaks 35% ?

    In the list I supplied, at the end of the half he drives several times with high % results, but they are not "let's get in traffic and see where we end" drives, they were "clear outs" where everybody on the team cleared a path (or side) for JT to go to the hoop, they were set plays.

    I can fully understand why Tins is the whipping boy, if he leaves tomorrow some will rejoice and even take no PG over him, and the next who'll get the heavy guns aimed at him will be JO or Dunleavy.

    Sometimes I think you guys are masochists who want to be udnerdogs to accomplish the fairytale year after year.
    It seems hard to acknowledge you have one of the best PF's in the league on your team and a PG that CAN distribute (nto only did the guy take 24 shots he also dissed 10 Ast and if you just look at the list I made and the number of dishes missed by either Dun, Murph or JO you can easily extrapolate that to another 10 or 15 Ast over the course of the game.

    Sometimes (seeing as also in this game he did not start shooting till later in the game outside of his first shot) I think he only gets told to do so when everybody else is failing and yes, he's TOLD to do it.
    Finally, when he left the game we were down 10 (after playing 10 minutes), due in main to missed shots by the aforementioned players (including DG) he went out for 5 minutes and came back down 21.

    Rick is a "numbers man" who keeps a very close eye on stats, and he will most certainly go for high percentage (JO JT) over "cold shooters" as Dunleavy or DA.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  11. #111
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    I like Hicks theory that Jamaal is being showcased.

    That said, the other theories can also be partially true. Until the trade, JT is our best option, so Rick goes with him. Rick encourages him to shoot, as we don't have much other firepower with Quis out and Murph recovering.

    And while Rick may not be afraid to bench JT in terms of intimidation, I think it's possible he's afraid to bench/discipline him in terms of hurting JT's confidence and attitude--Rick needs it to be good to survive until we trade for a better point guard.

    This is my theory--a synthesis of the various theories being peddled.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  12. #112
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Ok, let's assume we are trading him for a "better" PG, anyone mind listing the "better" & "available" pg's ?

    And yes, dishing neigh on 8 Ast p/g and shooting 50+% but no more then 14 times a game, doing 2.5 steal, neigh on 4 reb as well pls.

    And since "it" has to be better, perhaps a defensive ace on top of that.

    Let's get real here, if a PG like that were on the market, who wouldn't be bidding?
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  13. #113
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    We've seen over and over from Travis Best, from Chauncey, from Kenny Anderson, from AJ, how Rick wants his point guards to play.

    He wants them to be scoring threats.

    I think Rick's only regret is that Tinsley isn't shooting a higher percentage.

    Jamaal looks very uncomfortable on the court, and his shots are often short because he looks tentative. This is not his "natural" way of playing the PG position. I think he's second-guessing himself a lot.
    This is absurd. Now poor Tinsley is the victim, he's being made to shoot the ball against his will.

  14. #114
    Banned PacerMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    You know, I've thought to myself many times "Jamaal is really playing when he shouldn't be. I can't believe he's playing with this injury/illness. He obviously feels miserable, but he's still trying. That shows a ton of heart and I really admire that".

    But, I've never, in the six years he's been here, thought "Jamaal really hustled his a** off tonight. He gave it everything he had."


    If he could just use his heart towards effort the way he can fight through problems, I wouldn't be complaining as much.
    I'm sorry you haven't been able to see many games the past 6 years.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I'm not convinced that Dunleavy sees the court any better than Tinsley, that he runs the team any better than Tinsley, or that he has better decision-making than Tinsley.

    Let's figure those things out before handing him the keys, eh?
    Even if Dunleavys no better, it opens a spot for a real defender in the backcourt. Stopping dribble penetration and slowing down the opponents pg would do wonderful things for this teams defense. If we're going to play defense with Murphy and Dunleavy we NEED a stopper at PG. Would be even better if we could get a real shooter back there too. Trade him or sit him, it's worth a shot. And not because Tinsleys so bad.

  16. #116
    Member odeez's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Defense would be nice from TINS, he seems to have trouble if he doesn't have the ball in his hands. He has the ability to play defense and get steals. I feel like somewhere in TINS there is consistant D, he just doesn't seem to be able to transmit it to the floor. We need better defense in our back court at both positions. If we have to make a trade to do so, then we should do it.
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  17. #117

    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerMan View Post
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    I'm sorry you haven't been able to see many games the past 6 years.

    I guess I walked away for a snack all those times that Jamaal went after a loose ball. And that whole matador defense thing..made that up.

  18. #118
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Besides Dunleavy's poor defense, he also is dreadful near the rim. He doesn't pass well late in a drive and he doesn't really finish all that well most of the time either. Kind of a problem for a "creator", the same problem Fred had except without the abilty to get up over people and score it at the rim 50% of the time.

    Otherwise I'd be open to moving Tins and shifting it to DunDun with a defense only PG (Greene is already on the team even).

    Dunleavy is a nice all-around junk ball bench guy that you would appreciate if he was a 2nd rounder and paid like it. Kinda like Croshere.


    Tinsley just isn't making good reads late in plays. He forces it against double teams, he shoots late when he's been defended well on a drive. It's not what he started off trying to do, it's what he chooses to do at the ends of plays that's been a problem.

  19. #119
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts from the Warriors game....

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I guess I walked away for a snack all those times that Jamaal went after a loose ball. And that whole matador defense thing..made that up.
    Man, your snack timing is even worse than I thought.........
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