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Prince - Halftime Show

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  • #16
    Re: Prince - Halftime Show

    Originally posted by brichard View Post
    Keith Richards once said "the smaller the joint the better the sound." It is very difficult to get a good sound in a large venue. You just don't have the ideal setup for acoustics, so then when you try to transfer that to television, it becomes even more difficult.
    I don't disagree with Keith Richards' point but I disagree with your point. We're talking about two different things. The sound you hear on TV has very, very little to do with the sound in the arena. It's not like the TV crew sticks up a couple of mics to pick up the room (or stadium sound in this case) and just broadcasts that. It's all a very high level production and amazing what is accomplished on events of this scale in the small time they have.

    Every instrument is mic'ed (or DI'ed) as well as vocals and then the mic lines are split. You will at least have 3 splits (or you can think of them as feeds):
    Broadcast audio console
    House audio console
    Monitor (stage) audio console

    Each of those positions will be manned by at least one engineer. Each engineer will be responsible for entirely different mixes. Performers on stage won't be hearing what the house hears or the tv for that matter. In these days of IEMS (in ear monitoring) the performer doesn't even have much concern with the bleed of the house sound reaching his/her ears.

    By the same token the FOH (front of house) engineer will be soley responsible for what the stadium is hearing thru the house speakers. Typically for an event such as the Super Bowl the inhouse sound system/public address system is augmented greatly. I didn't notice what they did this year but in year's past they've utilized line array (speaker) technology on large carts or trailers to better cover the stadium for the halftime show.

    Lastly, most likely in a truck altho it can be a specialized room, will be the engineer that controls the mix for the television broadcast. Again, every instrument, track, vocal all feed here (to this console) directly, and separately, from the stage. There is total control here. There are also some ambient mics fed here in order to feed some of the crowd noise into the television mix to give it a 'live' feel. You'd be surprised at how little crowd noise you'd hear if it wasn't for these ambient mics.

    If you took a handycam into the stadium and recorded the concert then you would be hearing the acousitics of the venue and of course the crowd. But the mics on stage are usually uni-directional, super cardioid, or hyper cardiod type mics. Which means they cancel ambient sound to varying degrees and only (more or less) pick up what is directly at the head of the mic. Not much crowd noise (leakage) is going to get into a mic 1" off the grill of a guitar amp at arena stage levels. By the same token, a vocal mic also won't be picking up much else except the singer that is singing into it. Especially rock and pop music styles where the singers stay very close, if not touching the mic with their lips.

    The S/N ratio of these close mic'ed instruments/vox comes into play.

    Things like keyboards and bass guitars are typically DI'ed (which mean they connect directly -Direct Injection) to the sound system (and technically on most larger production the bass guitar amp will also be mic'ed altho that is optional). A DI'ed instrument won't really be subjected to any ambient noise in its channel on the mixing consoles.

    Drums, with all their open mics, would seem a source for picking up ambient sounds but that is where 'noise gates' come into play. Those open mics won't really be 'open'... they'll be 'gated' and will only 'open' when a sound of a certain threshold (and for pro equip also a frequency range can be selected) is reached. IOW- the TING of a cymbal probably won't even open the mic, but a solid THUD of a drum will open its mic. But the drum won't be loud enough to cause the threshold to be reached on an adjacent drum and mic. So, except when those drums (individually) are being hit, those mics are 'off'.

    And once again, this can and will be all set differently for the house, stage, and broadcast mixes.


    As you can imagine, a mass of cabling is necessary for a production of this size.... The logistics have to be a nightmare.

    ---

    So it is a misconception to think the people in the stadium are hearing what we hear at home. They are completely different mixes, mixed by completely different people.

    ---

    Now on the smallest of small scale local TV work things can be done differently. Altho the same basic principles still do apply. I have done some work where the basic house feed was made available to several different broadcasters covering an event. This is typical for a news conference type event. Some people will take just the natural sound while others will take the provided feed.... or they can utilize both and pick and choose in editing (or even live on the fly).

    And I've also done it where I've mixed house audio with a split going to the television truck and tv did their own mixing. (And in wearing two hats I've setup a matrix mix of the house band and fed that to the broadcast truck. This mix had absolutely no similarity to the mix fed to the house... I was simply doing what would normally be done by someone else).

    But we're talking SMALL scale stuff there.... but the idea is the same at every level (at least once you start utlizing splits).

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Prince - Halftime Show

      Originally posted by Bball View Post
      I don't disagree with Keith Richards' point but I disagree with your point. We're talking about two different things. The sound you hear on TV has very, very little to do with the sound in the arena. It's not like the TV crew sticks up a couple of mics to pick up the room (or stadium sound in this case) and just broadcasts that. It's all a very high level production and amazing what is accomplished on events of this scale in the small time they have.

      Every instrument is mic'ed (or DI'ed) as well as vocals and then the mic lines are split. You will at least have 3 splits (or you can think of them as feeds):
      Broadcast audio console
      House audio console
      Monitor (stage) audio console

      Each of those positions will be manned by at least one engineer. Each engineer will be responsible for entirely different mixes. Performers on stage won't be hearing what the house hears or the tv for that matter. In these days of IEMS (in ear monitoring) the performer doesn't even have much concern with the bleed of the house sound reaching his/her ears.

      By the same token the FOH (front of house) engineer will be soley responsible for what the stadium is hearing thru the house speakers. Typically for an event such as the Super Bowl the inhouse sound system/public address system is augmented greatly. I didn't notice what they did this year but in year's past they've utilized line array (speaker) technology on large carts or trailers to better cover the stadium for the halftime show.

      Lastly, most likely in a truck altho it can be a specialized room, will be the engineer that controls the mix for the television broadcast. Again, every instrument, track, vocal all feed here (to this console) directly, and separately, from the stage. There is total control here. There are also some ambient mics fed here in order to feed some of the crowd noise into the television mix to give it a 'live' feel. You'd be surprised at how little crowd noise you'd hear if it wasn't for these ambient mics.

      If you took a handycam into the stadium and recorded the concert then you would be hearing the acousitics of the venue and of course the crowd. But the mics on stage are usually uni-directional, super cardioid, or hyper cardiod type mics. Which means they cancel ambient sound to varying degrees and only (more or less) pick up what is directly at the head of the mic. Not much crowd noise (leakage) is going to get into a mic 1" off the grill of a guitar amp at arena stage levels. By the same token, a vocal mic also won't be picking up much else except the singer that is singing into it. Especially rock and pop music styles where the singers stay very close, if not touching the mic with their lips.

      The S/N ratio of these close mic'ed instruments/vox comes into play.

      Things like keyboards and bass guitars are typically DI'ed (which mean they connect directly -Direct Injection) to the sound system (and technically on most larger production the bass guitar amp will also be mic'ed altho that is optional). A DI'ed instrument won't really be subjected to any ambient noise in its channel on the mixing consoles.

      Drums, with all their open mics, would seem a source for picking up ambient sounds but that is where 'noise gates' come into play. Those open mics won't really be 'open'... they'll be 'gated' and will only 'open' when a sound of a certain threshold (and for pro equip also a frequency range can be selected) is reached. IOW- the TING of a cymbal probably won't even open the mic, but a solid THUD of a drum will open its mic. But the drum won't be loud enough to cause the threshold to be reached on an adjacent drum and mic. So, except when those drums (individually) are being hit, those mics are 'off'.

      And once again, this can and will be all set differently for the house, stage, and broadcast mixes.


      As you can imagine, a mass of cabling is necessary for a production of this size.... The logistics have to be a nightmare.

      ---

      So it is a misconception to think the people in the stadium are hearing what we hear at home. They are completely different mixes, mixed by completely different people.

      ---

      Now on the smallest of small scale local TV work things can be done differently. Altho the same basic principles still do apply. I have done some work where the basic house feed was made available to several different broadcasters covering an event. This is typical for a news conference type event. Some people will take just the natural sound while others will take the provided feed.... or they can utilize both and pick and choose in editing (or even live on the fly).

      And I've also done it where I've mixed house audio with a split going to the television truck and tv did their own mixing. (And in wearing two hats I've setup a matrix mix of the house band and fed that to the broadcast truck. This mix had absolutely no similarity to the mix fed to the house... I was simply doing what would normally be done by someone else).

      But we're talking SMALL scale stuff there.... but the idea is the same at every level (at least once you start utlizing splits).

      -Bball
      Uhhh... okay. I can't disagree with you b/c for the most part I have no idea what you are talking about. And perhaps it is just coincidence, but anytime I have heard a "live" recording it has always sounded better in the smaller venues. For example, a live broadcast from a studio will typically sound better than something I hear on the Today show. And I've always felt like the Superbowl concerts were just "okay" on the sound side. Perhaps for different reasons than I assumed, but that is my take as a listener, right or wrong.
      “Seventy percent of me talking on the court is personally for me to get me
      motivated and going. Thirty percent is to see if I can get into the opponent’s head.”
      Reggie Miller

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Prince - Halftime Show

        Originally posted by brichard View Post
        Uhhh... okay. I can't disagree with you b/c for the most part I have no idea what you are talking about. And perhaps it is just coincidence, but anytime I have heard a "live" recording it has always sounded better in the smaller venues. For example, a live broadcast from a studio will typically sound better than something I hear on the Today show. And I've always felt like the Superbowl concerts were just "okay" on the sound side. Perhaps for different reasons than I assumed, but that is my take as a listener, right or wrong.
        Yip... Can't argue what you're hearing only that your reasoning has been flawed. Inside a venue then room acoustics play a large role in what you hear there. Technology and seat location helps somewhat but for the most part you (and Keith Richards) are dead on here. But with a TV mix we're not really hearing the room- We're hearing somebody's idea of how the artist should sound, or the best they can make it sound with the limited time provided.

        While you might want to hear the kick drum thumping away with some act's barely perceptible trademark vocals, the guy assigned to the broadcast mix might be worried that a big kick drum sound will overwhelm the TV speakers and that those trademark buried vocals instead need to be right out in front and nearly void of that hall reverb that is used on the records.

        And that's another thing... the broadcast mix (which might sound fine to you in the truck) might be thinned, compressed, and tamed to sound good on little fullrange TV speakers first and foremost.

        The television mix is likely comprised of a series of tradeoffs.

        OTOH, a professional live concert DVD won't typically suffer these issues. Even in the same type venues as the live (or recorded live) TV shows like we are talking about. Basically, it will be recorded in much the same way as a Super Bowl halftime show EXCEPT the band, producer, studio eng, live eng, etc can also listen to the raw individual tracks and mix it after the fact. It will be the band and/or their handlers making the mix decisions. Not someone who might've never heard the artist before in their life until the first day of rehearsals.

        -Bball
        Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

        ------

        "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

        -John Wooden

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Prince - Halftime Show

          Originally posted by heywoode View Post
          I'm SO with you on this. My children are 6 and 4, and they were covering their eyes during the commercials and I hated to tell them not to so they could see the funny ones because of the horrible things you talk about.....

          I don't imagine it will ever happen that they censor those promos, after all, they seem to be policing themselves....

          Oh, and I thought Prince was awesome....
          I hate to be the wet blanket on all of this, but my personal impression has been that the Super Bowl commercials have sucked ever since the "wardrobe malfunction". I have never found any of the SB commercials of the past to be offensive in the past, merely funny, and, strangely enough, this was the first year that I saw a commercial that I felt was in poor taste, that being the Doritos checkout line commercial. Even then, I'm not sure if I'd call it offensive, just tasteless.

          I think, just with everything else in this country, we ignore everything until one abberation causes us to overreact for the next decade.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Prince - Halftime Show

            Originally posted by Eindar View Post
            I hate to be the wet blanket on all of this, but my personal impression has been that the Super Bowl commercials have sucked ever since the "wardrobe malfunction". I have never found any of the SB commercials of the past to be offensive in the past, merely funny, and, strangely enough, this was the first year that I saw a commercial that I felt was in poor taste, that being the Doritos checkout line commercial. Even then, I'm not sure if I'd call it offensive, just tasteless.

            I think, just with everything else in this country, we ignore everything until one abberation causes us to overreact for the next decade.
            The main problem isn't really the paid advertisers, but CBS with all of the dead bodies and whatnot on all of the commercials for the CSI's, Criminal Minds's, etc.....
            PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Prince - Halftime Show

              Originally posted by MagicRat View Post
              The main problem isn't really the paid advertisers, but CBS with all of the dead bodies and whatnot on all of the commercials for the CSI's, Criminal Minds's, etc.....
              Exactly.

              Although the Hannibel Lechter commerical was another questionable display.
              Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
              Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
              Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
              Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
              And life itself, rushing over me
              Life itself, the wind in black elms,
              Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Prince - Halftime Show

                Originally posted by FlavaDave View Post
                I bet the cable pundits will make too big a deal about it, but clearly Prince did that intentionally.
                I dunno. Could be. But for those who were worried that Prince might be lewd, he become a Jehovah's Witness several years back and since then he has really toned down his shows and he no longer plays some of his raunchier songs. That on top of the fact that he has a bum hip, and we're talking about a pretty tame affair.

                I didn't love the show, but I didn't hate it either. I thought the covers he did were interesting.
                "Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

                "Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire

                "Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Prince - Halftime Show

                  Originally posted by Lord Helmet View Post
                  I think Prince kicked ***.

                  I loved the All Along the Watchtower with the Best of You.
                  Me too. Brilliant.

                  (edit - this rant is partially stupid in light of a mistake I made...see a later post)
                  But talk about telling perceptions, I saw someone (maybe ESPN) describing it with a positive review, and in it apparently Prince played songs by CCR and Bob Dylan.

                  Now of course he did...but he also played songs by Ike and Tina and Jimi Hendrix. Either description is right, but clearly you can see a slant there (edit, no you can't). I'm sure it was unintentional and totally harmless, but honestly I think the influence on him came from Ike and Tina/Jimi more, and CCR did not write Proud Mary (edit - yes they did) as Dylan did with Watchtower.

                  I'm a huge CCR fan and love their version, but it's also THE staple of the Ike and Tina catalog. I think that's why he chose it to be honest. (edit - the one thing I still stand by is that the influence came from Turner and Jimi's versions).


                  Anyway, back to the set in general, I loved the mix, I couldn't believe how well he played in that weather and his voice was terrific. He came out looking like a true pro. He's a "get your money's worth" performer.

                  I was also impressed that despite a massively deep collection of singles to choose from of his own, that he mixed in some other stuff instead. It was a lot more like a traditional concert instead of some has-been greatest hits parade.

                  ps - I've never heard the Foo's cover of Nikki. Any good?

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                  • #24
                    Re: Prince - Halftime Show

                    Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                    Now of course he did...but he also played songs by Ike and Tina and Jimi Hendrix. Either description is right, but clearly you can see a slant there. I'm sure it was unintentional and totally harmless, but honestly I think the influence on him came from Ike and Tina/Jimi more, and CCR did not write Proud Mary as Dylan did with Watchtower.

                    John Fogerty wrote it. CCR is close enough, eh?
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                    • #25
                      Re: Prince - Halftime Show

                      http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=29036

                      For an encore performance follow this link
                      http://www.housequake.com/showthread...threadid=80658

                      To download the haltime press conference performance, go here
                      http://download.yousendit.com/31042DB36836DC28

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                      • #26
                        Re: Prince - Halftime Show

                        I watched Puppy Bowl 3 on Animal Planet during halftime. It was intense!

                        On a more serious note, and so I can keep my Man Card, my wife hates football, and was only watching to support the Colts. Being forced to watch Prince for half an hour might have drivenher insane

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                        • #27
                          Re: Prince - Halftime Show

                          Originally posted by FlavaDave View Post
                          John Fogerty wrote it. CCR is close enough, eh?


                          Sorry, I jumped a track on this one. I was thinking of MIDNIGHT SPECIAL, the traditional folk song with no attributed writer, which is a classic CCR song (though Lead Belly broke it into popular conscious). I loved it showing up in Twilight Zone the Movie.

                          Pretty embarrassing. :shakehead
                          I'm really slipping in my old age, this is one I should have known (and used to). Somewhere before the Prince show I swapped them in my brain. That's what I get for not breaking out the Creedence on a regular basis. They used to be one of my top 5 bands about 8 years ago, constant rotation.

                          Worse yet, a rant based off misinformation, my own pet peeve. What's next, I stop turning on red and start getting on elevators before people have had a chance to exit first?

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