Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Xs and groans

    Carlisle's systematic approach on offense isn't always popular with players, but it has been a winning formula for Pacers

    By Mark Montieth
    mark.montieth@indystar.com

    For the record: Rick Carlisle, in his sixth season of coaching in the NBA, is 272-185 (.595), including 172-121 in three-plus seasons with the Pacers. - ROB GOEBEL / The Star

    It has become a ritual, almost a rite of passage for exiting Indiana Pacers.

    They gather their belongings. They say goodbye. They take a shot at coach Rick Carlisle.

    Ron Artest called his offense "boring," citing it as a reason he asked to be traded.

    Anthony Johnson called for "a culture change" at the end of last season, before becoming a victim of one, and he and Austin Croshere indirectly criticized Carlisle for showing favoritism toward star players by emphasizing how their new coach in Dallas, Avery Johnson, holds everyone equally accountable.

    Al Harrington lamented the tempo of his offense.
    Stephen Jackson says he "didn't see eye-to-eye" with his controlled approach.

    Sarunas Jasikevicius said Carlisle played him out of position.

    That accounts for seven of the past eight players traded by the Pacers. The lone exception, Josh Powell, wasn't asked for a critique.

    Oh, and don't forget Fred Jones, who expressed joy over going to a team that offered more offensive freedom when he signed with Toronto last summer.
    Traded players often complain about their former employer, but the refrain of grumbling directed at Carlisle has put one of the most successful coaches in franchise history in a defensive posture in the minds of many who follow the Pacers.

    Not his mind, though. Nor, apparently, the minds of his bosses.
    Most NBA franchises take the quickest and easiest option when frustrations mount and fire the coach. Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh and president Larry Bird, however, gave Carlisle an offseason contract extension and began tossing sticks of dynamite at the roster.

    Just five players who started the 2005-06 season -- Jeff Foster, Danny Granger, David Harrison, Jermaine O'Neal and Jamaal Tinsley -- remain, and more trades could come before the Feb. 22 deadline. It's been a startling turn of events for a franchise noted for its stability, but Carlisle works in the eye of the storm.

    He's midway through his fourth season as coach. If he returns next season he'll have the longest coaching tenure in franchise history since Bob "Slick" Leonard was fired in 1980 after nearly 12 full seasons.

    Although his style has annoyed some players, Carlisle has accumulated an envious resume as coach in Detroit and Indiana. He hasn't had a losing record, and likely won't this season, either. He led the Pacers to a franchise-record 61 victories in 2003-04 and coached in the All-Star Game.
    He was named Coach of the Year with the Pistons in 2002 (though starters there griped about his offense, too, and he was fired a year later after being swept in the conference finals). He is the only coach in league history to finish among the top five vote-getters for the award in each of his first four seasons.

    "It's been pretty clear to me that Donnie, Larry, (owners Mel and Herb Simon) and I have a similar vision in how we see this franchise and the kind of basketball we want to play," Carlisle said. "That's one of the reasons this is a great job. You're with people who work toward finding a way to make it work rather than looking for reasons to make negative changes."

    Negative changes are in the eye of the beholder, of course, but the eight-player trade with Golden State on Jan. 17 gave the Pacers a refreshed outlook, a calmer personality and renewed hope.

    It also took pressure off Carlisle, ridding him of four frustrated players and bringing in four -- Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, Ike Diogu and Keith McLeod -- who were equally eager for a fresh start and claim to prefer a system such as his.

    Questions related to offensive tempo, play-calling and team discipline rub a raw nerve for Carlisle, who has grown tired of defending himself every time a departed player speaks out.

    He chooses his words carefully, however, offering responses that won't insult anyone.

    "Trades are difficult," he said. "They can be emotional, especially for players. Things are said and I think it's important as a coach not to overreact."
    Carlisle is cerebral and soft-spoken by nature; discipline doesn't come naturally to him.

    But he believes the convoluted job title he was given over the summer (executive vice president of basketball operations) has enabled him to be more strict. He made that point by kicking Jackson off the bench in a game at Cleveland in December and suspending him for the next game.

    Some players regard Carlisle's offense as complicated, requiring thought processes that impede their instinct and momentum.

    O'Neal recently called it "complicated" and said he still fails to execute it properly on occasion, but said it makes the Pacers difficult to prepare for and caters to their individual strengths. Carlisle considers his system fairly typical. He said he simplified it before the season, and simplified it again after the trade.

    As for his tendency to call plays on most possessions, he believes that to be a necessary evil for his particular team. He points out he has turned his team loose when appropriate, an example being Game 4 of the 2004 playoff series against Detroit, when he inserted Croshere into the starting lineup, and got a road victory.

    "My thing is putting players in position to succeed," he said. "Of course you want the game to be fun. I don't enjoy making a lot of play calls. I don't like it, despite what people think. Every coach would love to have a situation where players could read and react and make the right plays, but as a coach you need to provide direction when it's needed."

    Carlisle finds the complaints about tempo particularly annoying. They date to his tenure in Detroit, where players described his half-court sets as too predictable.

    After Walsh and Bird made offseason moves to build a more athletic team, Carlisle attempted to install a faster pace of play. In his mind, however, it wasn't working.

    His initial frontline of Harrington, O'Neal and Danny Granger wasn't rebounding or defending well. He addressed that by starting Jeff Foster in place of Granger and moving Harrington to small forward. The Pacers were more physical, but according to his calculations, their fastbreak points dropped 25 percent.

    Carlisle still wants his players to run off opponents' missed shots, and he still devotes time to it in practice. But players must get defensive stops, rebound and sprint downcourt if they want easy points.

    Walsh said that wasn't happening. "I went to practices," Walsh said. "I thought we wanted to run, but I didn't see our players running. It wasn't like I didn't see Rick trying to push it forward. I know there's some idea we should blame it on the coach, but I watched it. I didn't see the players getting out and running."

    The Pacers' most energetic player, veteran guard Darrell Armstrong, has played on up-tempo teams and knows the sacrifices that have to be made. He wasn't seeing them, either. Running isn't easy," he said. "Running is a lot of discipline. You have to be willing to hit that sideline (and rest) sometimes. It's one thing to do it in practice, but can you do it when the lights come on?"

    The other half of the offensive equation is Carlisle's desire to run the offense through his leading scorer and only All-Star, O'Neal. When the Pacers run, O'Neal tends to get left behind, something he and Carlisle object to strenuously.

    "We have a responsibility to play through our franchise player," Carlisle said. "If we're running up and down the court shooting jump shots, Jermaine O'Neal doesn't touch the ball as much."

    That's why O'Neal is on board with Carlisle's system, and with the trade. Harrington and Jackson were close friends, but O'Neal is happier with the revised roster.

    "The trade is going to benefit me a lot," O'Neal said. "I guess sometimes you have to sacrifice friendships to gain in other areas. (The new players) do a lot of different things we didn't have before."

    The Pacers are 6-2 since the trade and appear to be headed for another playoff appearance.

    If their traded imports adapt well, they have legitimate hopes for a high seed in the wide-open East. Should that happen, and should they have some success in the playoffs, Carlisle won't have to defend himself any longer.
    The record will speak for him.

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...TS04/702040415
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  • #2
    Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    O'Neal recently called it "complicated" and said he still fails to execute it properly on occasion, but said it makes the Pacers difficult to prepare for and caters to their individual strengths. Carlisle considers his system fairly typical. He said he simplified it before the season, and simplified it again after the trade.

    "My thing is putting players in position to succeed," he said

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

      Success for me is nothing less than the Conference Finals...perhaps I'm just difficult to please, but I expected a championship in 2005, and now that my expectations are still high, I can except nothing less than the games just before it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

        well i don't think most of us expected to get to the conference finals this season pre-trade, even before the season started (if i remember some of the discussions) i know that i saw this as a rebuilding year if we were A) going to start a faster tempo and B) develop our youth. because i didn't think Al was the answer to our championship dreams but allowing danny to develop more (which he certainly has... still needs work but he definitely has progressed) as well as some of our other young guys like harrison, powell, marshall, williams, etc... start developing our youth into valuable commodities for either our team or to bring the right people into our team. i thought we'd hover around .500. probably scrape into the playoffs. with the trade we did make, i think we a great young talent in diogu and we definitely changed the culture of our team chemistry and attitude. we brought in two players who are okay shooters but one better rebounder and one better passer - which to me has made the offense much more entertaining to watch. im still not expecting Conference Finals, but I don't think it would be out of the question anymore (at least so far, we'll see how it goes in march).
        This is the darkest timeline.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

          Success for me is beating the Warriors Monday night. I'm not thinking at all about the playoffs. I for the most part think like a coach. I just worry about the next game and the short term growth of the team .

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

            I think the eastern conference finals is money in the bank. I think the only team in the east that can beat us in 7 games is Detroit. I'd honestly like to see us meet Detroit in the ECF. I am not a believer in the Wizards yet, despite their record. We will see what happens come playoff time.

            Our team with the new guys is only getting better not worse and right now we look pretty good. We just have to figure out how to match up against Detroit and I think it starts with Diogu/Foster getting a lot of minutes.
            *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

              Originally posted by Jon Theodore View Post
              I think the eastern conference finals is money in the bank. I think the only team in the east that can beat us in 7 games is Detroit. I'd honestly like to see us meet Detroit in the ECF. I am not a believer in the Wizards yet, despite their record. We will see what happens come playoff time.

              Our team with the new guys is only getting better not worse and right now we look pretty good. We just have to figure out how to match up against Detroit and I think it starts with Diogu/Foster getting a lot of minutes.
              I don't know.. one thing that I think about our team is it's transition defense is not as good as it's half court defense. Our best defensive player JO is not going to be the first one back on defense all the time. Thus a team that takes quick transistion shots like Phoenix, Washington will be very very difficult challenge, plus Gilbert is a much harder player for our team to contain than any piston. I also am of mind to worry about the next game not reaching any specific goal.
              You didn't think it was gonna be that easy, did you? ..... You know, for a second there, yeah, I kinda did.....
              Silly rabbit..... Trix are for kids.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

                Originally posted by Jon Theodore View Post
                I think the eastern conference finals is money in the bank.
                Color me a pessimist....but given the level of change that was made and the resulting change to the mentality of the team.....I would be surprised if we make it to the ECF.

                My philosophy is always to aim low....that way...its not only easy to hit your target ( such as making it past the 1st round to make it to the 2nd round of the Playoffs )...if you end up doing better then you expected ( such as making it to the ECF )...it will be a pleasant surprise. But if we have a decent showing in the 2nd round of the Playoffs...I will be content.
                Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

                  Originally posted by Bball View Post
                  Xs and groans

                  Carlisle's systematic approach on offense isn't always popular with players, but it has been a winning formula for Pacers

                  By Mark Montieth
                  mark.montieth@indystar.com

                  For the record: Rick Carlisle, in his sixth season of coaching in the NBA, is 272-185 (.595), including 172-121 in three-plus seasons with the Pacers. - ROB GOEBEL / The Star

                  It has become a ritual, almost a rite of passage for exiting Indiana Pacers.

                  They gather their belongings. They say goodbye. They take a shot at coach Rick Carlisle.

                  Ron Artest called his offense "boring," citing it as a reason he asked to be traded.

                  Anthony Johnson called for "a culture change" at the end of last season, before becoming a victim of one, and he and Austin Croshere indirectly criticized Carlisle for showing favoritism toward star players by emphasizing how their new coach in Dallas, Avery Johnson, holds everyone equally accountable.

                  Al Harrington lamented the tempo of his offense.
                  Stephen Jackson says he "didn't see eye-to-eye" with his controlled approach.

                  Sarunas Jasikevicius said Carlisle played him out of position.

                  That accounts for seven of the past eight players traded by the Pacers. The lone exception, Josh Powell, wasn't asked for a critique.

                  Oh, and don't forget Fred Jones, who expressed joy over going to a team that offered more offensive freedom when he signed with Toronto last summer.
                  Traded players often complain about their former employer, but the refrain of grumbling directed at Carlisle has put one of the most successful coaches in franchise history in a defensive posture in the minds of many who follow the Pacers.

                  Not his mind, though. Nor, apparently, the minds of his bosses.
                  Most NBA franchises take the quickest and easiest option when frustrations mount and fire the coach. Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh and president Larry Bird, however, gave Carlisle an offseason contract extension and began tossing sticks of dynamite at the roster.

                  Just five players who started the 2005-06 season -- Jeff Foster, Danny Granger, David Harrison, Jermaine O'Neal and Jamaal Tinsley -- remain, and more trades could come before the Feb. 22 deadline. It's been a startling turn of events for a franchise noted for its stability, but Carlisle works in the eye of the storm.

                  He's midway through his fourth season as coach. If he returns next season he'll have the longest coaching tenure in franchise history since Bob "Slick" Leonard was fired in 1980 after nearly 12 full seasons.

                  Although his style has annoyed some players, Carlisle has accumulated an envious resume as coach in Detroit and Indiana. He hasn't had a losing record, and likely won't this season, either. He led the Pacers to a franchise-record 61 victories in 2003-04 and coached in the All-Star Game.
                  He was named Coach of the Year with the Pistons in 2002 (though starters there griped about his offense, too, and he was fired a year later after being swept in the conference finals). He is the only coach in league history to finish among the top five vote-getters for the award in each of his first four seasons.

                  "It's been pretty clear to me that Donnie, Larry, (owners Mel and Herb Simon) and I have a similar vision in how we see this franchise and the kind of basketball we want to play," Carlisle said. "That's one of the reasons this is a great job. You're with people who work toward finding a way to make it work rather than looking for reasons to make negative changes."

                  Negative changes are in the eye of the beholder, of course, but the eight-player trade with Golden State on Jan. 17 gave the Pacers a refreshed outlook, a calmer personality and renewed hope.

                  It also took pressure off Carlisle, ridding him of four frustrated players and bringing in four -- Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, Ike Diogu and Keith McLeod -- who were equally eager for a fresh start and claim to prefer a system such as his.

                  Questions related to offensive tempo, play-calling and team discipline rub a raw nerve for Carlisle, who has grown tired of defending himself every time a departed player speaks out.

                  He chooses his words carefully, however, offering responses that won't insult anyone.

                  "Trades are difficult," he said. "They can be emotional, especially for players. Things are said and I think it's important as a coach not to overreact."
                  Carlisle is cerebral and soft-spoken by nature; discipline doesn't come naturally to him.

                  But he believes the convoluted job title he was given over the summer (executive vice president of basketball operations) has enabled him to be more strict. He made that point by kicking Jackson off the bench in a game at Cleveland in December and suspending him for the next game.

                  Some players regard Carlisle's offense as complicated, requiring thought processes that impede their instinct and momentum.

                  O'Neal recently called it "complicated" and said he still fails to execute it properly on occasion, but said it makes the Pacers difficult to prepare for and caters to their individual strengths. Carlisle considers his system fairly typical. He said he simplified it before the season, and simplified it again after the trade.

                  As for his tendency to call plays on most possessions, he believes that to be a necessary evil for his particular team. He points out he has turned his team loose when appropriate, an example being Game 4 of the 2004 playoff series against Detroit, when he inserted Croshere into the starting lineup, and got a road victory.

                  "My thing is putting players in position to succeed," he said. "Of course you want the game to be fun. I don't enjoy making a lot of play calls. I don't like it, despite what people think. Every coach would love to have a situation where players could read and react and make the right plays, but as a coach you need to provide direction when it's needed."

                  Carlisle finds the complaints about tempo particularly annoying. They date to his tenure in Detroit, where players described his half-court sets as too predictable.

                  After Walsh and Bird made offseason moves to build a more athletic team, Carlisle attempted to install a faster pace of play. In his mind, however, it wasn't working.

                  His initial frontline of Harrington, O'Neal and Danny Granger wasn't rebounding or defending well. He addressed that by starting Jeff Foster in place of Granger and moving Harrington to small forward. The Pacers were more physical, but according to his calculations, their fastbreak points dropped 25 percent.

                  Carlisle still wants his players to run off opponents' missed shots, and he still devotes time to it in practice. But players must get defensive stops, rebound and sprint downcourt if they want easy points.

                  Walsh said that wasn't happening. "I went to practices," Walsh said. "I thought we wanted to run, but I didn't see our players running. It wasn't like I didn't see Rick trying to push it forward. I know there's some idea we should blame it on the coach, but I watched it. I didn't see the players getting out and running."

                  The Pacers' most energetic player, veteran guard Darrell Armstrong, has played on up-tempo teams and knows the sacrifices that have to be made. He wasn't seeing them, either. Running isn't easy," he said. "Running is a lot of discipline. You have to be willing to hit that sideline (and rest) sometimes. It's one thing to do it in practice, but can you do it when the lights come on?"

                  The other half of the offensive equation is Carlisle's desire to run the offense through his leading scorer and only All-Star, O'Neal. When the Pacers run, O'Neal tends to get left behind, something he and Carlisle object to strenuously.
                  "We have a responsibility to play through our franchise player," Carlisle said. "If we're running up and down the court shooting jump shots, Jermaine O'Neal doesn't touch the ball as much."

                  That's why O'Neal is on board with Carlisle's system, and with the trade. Harrington and Jackson were close friends, but O'Neal is happier with the revised roster.

                  "The trade is going to benefit me a lot," O'Neal said. "I guess sometimes you have to sacrifice friendships to gain in other areas. (The new players) do a lot of different things we didn't have before."

                  The Pacers are 6-2 since the trade and appear to be headed for another playoff appearance.

                  If their traded imports adapt well, they have legitimate hopes for a high seed in the wide-open East. Should that happen, and should they have some success in the playoffs, Carlisle won't have to defend himself any longer.
                  The record will speak for him.

                  http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...TS04/702040415

                  Hmmmmm......

                  Yet I'm pretty sure we were told on here over & over again that the game 8 meeting had nothing to do with how many touches, just where his touches came from.

                  I'm still seeing the sun but I fully believe that the entire offense that many of us hate is at the very least 50/50 the fault of the franchise player and the coach. But my gut feeling is that it is a lot more of the player than the coach.


                  Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

                    Originally posted by Peck View Post
                    Hmmmmm......

                    Yet I'm pretty sure we were told on here over & over again that the game 8 meeting had nothing to do with how many touches, just where his touches came from.

                    I'm still seeing the sun but I fully believe that the entire offense that many of us hate is at the very least 50/50 the fault of the franchise player and the coach. But my gut feeling is that it is a lot more of the player than the coach.
                    Be that as it may, we have to play to our franchise guy's strengths. I'm sorry but Al Harrington wasn't going to be putting up JO numbers and playing JO defense or passing like JO is right now anytime soon or ever. I am A-OK adjusting to the franchise guy. This is JO's team. He is our all-star. Btw, that's six-time all-star. Six times straight. And I would argue that this is as impressive as we've seen him play yet.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

                      I'm confused, why does JO get left behind on the break?

                      Because he gets most of the rebounds. He should be throwing good outlet passes that start the break and then being in position to trail the play and get a handoff if the first players up the floor cant score. Duncan probbly doesn't get many fast break points, but is involved every time they are in a half court set. Yet the Spurs are an efficient fast break team, why cant the Pacers aspire to this? JO is more athletic than Duncan.

                      The team still has to establish its identity so they can work out when to run and when to slow the pace.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

                        Now now Peck, look at the bright side and quote the whole quote:

                        "The other half of the offensive equation is Carlisle's desire to run the offense through his leading scorer and only All-Star, O'Neal. When the Pacers run, O'Neal tends to get left behind, something he and Carlisle object to strenuously."

                        JO bought into RC's system when he came here, he gave his word, for that to be changed, RC has to change the system and nothing I have seen so far would give me the impression that JO would not "Buy into" any any other system the coach wants to run.

                        RC is not only a psychologist, he is also a mathematician, he wants high percentage shots and plays, fast breaks with 40% shots from outside are not that.

                        I can't believe after all we're seeing of JO this year, the blocking, the D, the taking charges like no other "star" in the league, the high scoring, the rebounding, that anyone would still think he's a "me first" player.

                        JO is not interested in his numbers, which btw would be probably league leading if he did, but in winning with the team.

                        As RC said: "this team is all about winning, for the team".

                        As Al said in a blip today in the press however:

                        "I went in extremely optimistic that it would work, but as soon as I got there, I knew it wouldn't. Things hadn't changed," Harrington told the Chronicle. "On the court, I knew I wasn't going to be able to set out what I wanted to accomplish."


                        says so much more since he follows that up with his play, unlike JO.
                        So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

                        If you've done 6 impossible things today?
                        Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

                          Show me the players who get BETTER with their newfound freedom after they leave Indiana and Rick Carlisle.

                          Did Artest get better?

                          Obviously it's too soon to know on most of the recent trades. It seems like it only took about 3 games for Nellie to decide that Saras should be a DNP-CD. Anthony Johnson never plays, so it's hard to say that he is thriving under his new freedom.

                          If guys are more concerned with freedom, fun, and lots of touches than winning, then it's good for them and even better for us that they find a new place to play.
                          The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

                            able, that quote by Al caught my eye also. Hey Al, what about what the "team" wanted to accomplish.

                            Good to know that Al is having the most fun in his life playing for the Warriors.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

                              Originally posted by rexnom View Post
                              Be that as it may, we have to play to our franchise guy's strengths. I'm sorry but Al Harrington wasn't going to be putting up JO numbers and playing JO defense or passing like JO is right now anytime soon or ever. I am A-OK adjusting to the franchise guy. This is JO's team. He is our all-star. Btw, that's six-time all-star. Six times straight. And I would argue that this is as impressive as we've seen him play yet.
                              I was going to say pretty much the same thing, but you beat me to it. I'm sure no Pacers fan was saying "don't cater to Reggie's style of play" when he was the franchise player.

                              Fact is, Jermaine Oneal is the face of the Pacers right now, and as much as many of us would love to see a run-n-gun style offense in Naptown, it just ain't gonna happen - not with JO as the franchise player, and certainly not with this group of players. That in no way means this team can't compete with teams that play a more uptempo style, but rather you can expect to see more of the tranditional half-court style w/emphasis on team defense and the occasional fast break. Point in the paint is fast become this team's strong area, and thanks to Foster, Murphy, JO and a whole lot of hustle from various players "team" rebounding on scrappy play is starting to get noticed.

                              But the bottom line is you have to build a team around the strength of one or two players and go from there. And right now, that one player for the Pacers is Jermaine Oneal. I have no problem with that as long as everyone else around him accepts their role. From the looks of it since the trade, I'd say they have.
                              Originally posted by pacertom View Post
                              Show me the players who get BETTER with their newfound freedom after they leave Indiana and Rick Carlisle.

                              Did Artest get better?

                              Obviously it's too soon to know on most of the recent trades. It seems like it only took about 3 games for Nellie to decide that Saras should be a DNP-CD. Anthony Johnson never plays, so it's hard to say that he is thriving under his new freedom.

                              If guys are more concerned with freedom, fun, and lots of touches than winning, then it's good for them and even better for us that they find a new place to play.
                              ...

                              It's funny you should say that. Not long ago, I started a thread on the IndyStar/Pacers forum on this very theme, "The Grass Isn't Always Greener on the Other Side," I got some pretty interesting comments from one poster in particular. To finally read someone here mention this very issue...either you've already read the thread or folks are finally starting to pickup on how this "Away they go...off in their little fantasy world" trend for former Pacers.

                              I generally don't wish former players ill-will, but a part of me is really hoping the Pacers win big tonight and that Al not only falls flat on his face (figurative speaking, of course, not literally) but that the Warriors fail to make the playoffs and the Pacers go deep. Then we'll see if they still thing RC's offense is "boring" and "too restricting".

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X