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Thread: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

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    Default Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Xs and groans

    Carlisle's systematic approach on offense isn't always popular with players, but it has been a winning formula for Pacers

    By Mark Montieth
    mark.montieth@indystar.com

    For the record: Rick Carlisle, in his sixth season of coaching in the NBA, is 272-185 (.595), including 172-121 in three-plus seasons with the Pacers. - ROB GOEBEL / The Star

    It has become a ritual, almost a rite of passage for exiting Indiana Pacers.

    They gather their belongings. They say goodbye. They take a shot at coach Rick Carlisle.

    Ron Artest called his offense "boring," citing it as a reason he asked to be traded.

    Anthony Johnson called for "a culture change" at the end of last season, before becoming a victim of one, and he and Austin Croshere indirectly criticized Carlisle for showing favoritism toward star players by emphasizing how their new coach in Dallas, Avery Johnson, holds everyone equally accountable.

    Al Harrington lamented the tempo of his offense.
    Stephen Jackson says he "didn't see eye-to-eye" with his controlled approach.

    Sarunas Jasikevicius said Carlisle played him out of position.

    That accounts for seven of the past eight players traded by the Pacers. The lone exception, Josh Powell, wasn't asked for a critique.

    Oh, and don't forget Fred Jones, who expressed joy over going to a team that offered more offensive freedom when he signed with Toronto last summer.
    Traded players often complain about their former employer, but the refrain of grumbling directed at Carlisle has put one of the most successful coaches in franchise history in a defensive posture in the minds of many who follow the Pacers.

    Not his mind, though. Nor, apparently, the minds of his bosses.
    Most NBA franchises take the quickest and easiest option when frustrations mount and fire the coach. Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh and president Larry Bird, however, gave Carlisle an offseason contract extension and began tossing sticks of dynamite at the roster.

    Just five players who started the 2005-06 season -- Jeff Foster, Danny Granger, David Harrison, Jermaine O'Neal and Jamaal Tinsley -- remain, and more trades could come before the Feb. 22 deadline. It's been a startling turn of events for a franchise noted for its stability, but Carlisle works in the eye of the storm.

    He's midway through his fourth season as coach. If he returns next season he'll have the longest coaching tenure in franchise history since Bob "Slick" Leonard was fired in 1980 after nearly 12 full seasons.

    Although his style has annoyed some players, Carlisle has accumulated an envious resume as coach in Detroit and Indiana. He hasn't had a losing record, and likely won't this season, either. He led the Pacers to a franchise-record 61 victories in 2003-04 and coached in the All-Star Game.
    He was named Coach of the Year with the Pistons in 2002 (though starters there griped about his offense, too, and he was fired a year later after being swept in the conference finals). He is the only coach in league history to finish among the top five vote-getters for the award in each of his first four seasons.

    "It's been pretty clear to me that Donnie, Larry, (owners Mel and Herb Simon) and I have a similar vision in how we see this franchise and the kind of basketball we want to play," Carlisle said. "That's one of the reasons this is a great job. You're with people who work toward finding a way to make it work rather than looking for reasons to make negative changes."

    Negative changes are in the eye of the beholder, of course, but the eight-player trade with Golden State on Jan. 17 gave the Pacers a refreshed outlook, a calmer personality and renewed hope.

    It also took pressure off Carlisle, ridding him of four frustrated players and bringing in four -- Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, Ike Diogu and Keith McLeod -- who were equally eager for a fresh start and claim to prefer a system such as his.

    Questions related to offensive tempo, play-calling and team discipline rub a raw nerve for Carlisle, who has grown tired of defending himself every time a departed player speaks out.

    He chooses his words carefully, however, offering responses that won't insult anyone.

    "Trades are difficult," he said. "They can be emotional, especially for players. Things are said and I think it's important as a coach not to overreact."
    Carlisle is cerebral and soft-spoken by nature; discipline doesn't come naturally to him.

    But he believes the convoluted job title he was given over the summer (executive vice president of basketball operations) has enabled him to be more strict. He made that point by kicking Jackson off the bench in a game at Cleveland in December and suspending him for the next game.

    Some players regard Carlisle's offense as complicated, requiring thought processes that impede their instinct and momentum.

    O'Neal recently called it "complicated" and said he still fails to execute it properly on occasion, but said it makes the Pacers difficult to prepare for and caters to their individual strengths. Carlisle considers his system fairly typical. He said he simplified it before the season, and simplified it again after the trade.

    As for his tendency to call plays on most possessions, he believes that to be a necessary evil for his particular team. He points out he has turned his team loose when appropriate, an example being Game 4 of the 2004 playoff series against Detroit, when he inserted Croshere into the starting lineup, and got a road victory.

    "My thing is putting players in position to succeed," he said. "Of course you want the game to be fun. I don't enjoy making a lot of play calls. I don't like it, despite what people think. Every coach would love to have a situation where players could read and react and make the right plays, but as a coach you need to provide direction when it's needed."

    Carlisle finds the complaints about tempo particularly annoying. They date to his tenure in Detroit, where players described his half-court sets as too predictable.

    After Walsh and Bird made offseason moves to build a more athletic team, Carlisle attempted to install a faster pace of play. In his mind, however, it wasn't working.

    His initial frontline of Harrington, O'Neal and Danny Granger wasn't rebounding or defending well. He addressed that by starting Jeff Foster in place of Granger and moving Harrington to small forward. The Pacers were more physical, but according to his calculations, their fastbreak points dropped 25 percent.

    Carlisle still wants his players to run off opponents' missed shots, and he still devotes time to it in practice. But players must get defensive stops, rebound and sprint downcourt if they want easy points.

    Walsh said that wasn't happening. "I went to practices," Walsh said. "I thought we wanted to run, but I didn't see our players running. It wasn't like I didn't see Rick trying to push it forward. I know there's some idea we should blame it on the coach, but I watched it. I didn't see the players getting out and running."

    The Pacers' most energetic player, veteran guard Darrell Armstrong, has played on up-tempo teams and knows the sacrifices that have to be made. He wasn't seeing them, either. Running isn't easy," he said. "Running is a lot of discipline. You have to be willing to hit that sideline (and rest) sometimes. It's one thing to do it in practice, but can you do it when the lights come on?"

    The other half of the offensive equation is Carlisle's desire to run the offense through his leading scorer and only All-Star, O'Neal. When the Pacers run, O'Neal tends to get left behind, something he and Carlisle object to strenuously.

    "We have a responsibility to play through our franchise player," Carlisle said. "If we're running up and down the court shooting jump shots, Jermaine O'Neal doesn't touch the ball as much."

    That's why O'Neal is on board with Carlisle's system, and with the trade. Harrington and Jackson were close friends, but O'Neal is happier with the revised roster.

    "The trade is going to benefit me a lot," O'Neal said. "I guess sometimes you have to sacrifice friendships to gain in other areas. (The new players) do a lot of different things we didn't have before."

    The Pacers are 6-2 since the trade and appear to be headed for another playoff appearance.

    If their traded imports adapt well, they have legitimate hopes for a high seed in the wide-open East. Should that happen, and should they have some success in the playoffs, Carlisle won't have to defend himself any longer.
    The record will speak for him.

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...TS04/702040415
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    O'Neal recently called it "complicated" and said he still fails to execute it properly on occasion, but said it makes the Pacers difficult to prepare for and caters to their individual strengths. Carlisle considers his system fairly typical. He said he simplified it before the season, and simplified it again after the trade.

    "My thing is putting players in position to succeed," he said

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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Success for me is nothing less than the Conference Finals...perhaps I'm just difficult to please, but I expected a championship in 2005, and now that my expectations are still high, I can except nothing less than the games just before it.

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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    well i don't think most of us expected to get to the conference finals this season pre-trade, even before the season started (if i remember some of the discussions) i know that i saw this as a rebuilding year if we were A) going to start a faster tempo and B) develop our youth. because i didn't think Al was the answer to our championship dreams but allowing danny to develop more (which he certainly has... still needs work but he definitely has progressed) as well as some of our other young guys like harrison, powell, marshall, williams, etc... start developing our youth into valuable commodities for either our team or to bring the right people into our team. i thought we'd hover around .500. probably scrape into the playoffs. with the trade we did make, i think we a great young talent in diogu and we definitely changed the culture of our team chemistry and attitude. we brought in two players who are okay shooters but one better rebounder and one better passer - which to me has made the offense much more entertaining to watch. im still not expecting Conference Finals, but I don't think it would be out of the question anymore (at least so far, we'll see how it goes in march).
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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Success for me is beating the Warriors Monday night. I'm not thinking at all about the playoffs. I for the most part think like a coach. I just worry about the next game and the short term growth of the team .

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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    I think the eastern conference finals is money in the bank. I think the only team in the east that can beat us in 7 games is Detroit. I'd honestly like to see us meet Detroit in the ECF. I am not a believer in the Wizards yet, despite their record. We will see what happens come playoff time.

    Our team with the new guys is only getting better not worse and right now we look pretty good. We just have to figure out how to match up against Detroit and I think it starts with Diogu/Foster getting a lot of minutes.
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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore View Post
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    I think the eastern conference finals is money in the bank. I think the only team in the east that can beat us in 7 games is Detroit. I'd honestly like to see us meet Detroit in the ECF. I am not a believer in the Wizards yet, despite their record. We will see what happens come playoff time.

    Our team with the new guys is only getting better not worse and right now we look pretty good. We just have to figure out how to match up against Detroit and I think it starts with Diogu/Foster getting a lot of minutes.
    I don't know.. one thing that I think about our team is it's transition defense is not as good as it's half court defense. Our best defensive player JO is not going to be the first one back on defense all the time. Thus a team that takes quick transistion shots like Phoenix, Washington will be very very difficult challenge, plus Gilbert is a much harder player for our team to contain than any piston. I also am of mind to worry about the next game not reaching any specific goal.
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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore View Post
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    I think the eastern conference finals is money in the bank.
    Color me a pessimist....but given the level of change that was made and the resulting change to the mentality of the team.....I would be surprised if we make it to the ECF.

    My philosophy is always to aim low....that way...its not only easy to hit your target ( such as making it past the 1st round to make it to the 2nd round of the Playoffs )...if you end up doing better then you expected ( such as making it to the ECF )...it will be a pleasant surprise. But if we have a decent showing in the 2nd round of the Playoffs...I will be content.
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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Xs and groans

    Carlisle's systematic approach on offense isn't always popular with players, but it has been a winning formula for Pacers

    By Mark Montieth
    mark.montieth@indystar.com

    For the record: Rick Carlisle, in his sixth season of coaching in the NBA, is 272-185 (.595), including 172-121 in three-plus seasons with the Pacers. - ROB GOEBEL / The Star

    It has become a ritual, almost a rite of passage for exiting Indiana Pacers.

    They gather their belongings. They say goodbye. They take a shot at coach Rick Carlisle.

    Ron Artest called his offense "boring," citing it as a reason he asked to be traded.

    Anthony Johnson called for "a culture change" at the end of last season, before becoming a victim of one, and he and Austin Croshere indirectly criticized Carlisle for showing favoritism toward star players by emphasizing how their new coach in Dallas, Avery Johnson, holds everyone equally accountable.

    Al Harrington lamented the tempo of his offense.
    Stephen Jackson says he "didn't see eye-to-eye" with his controlled approach.

    Sarunas Jasikevicius said Carlisle played him out of position.

    That accounts for seven of the past eight players traded by the Pacers. The lone exception, Josh Powell, wasn't asked for a critique.

    Oh, and don't forget Fred Jones, who expressed joy over going to a team that offered more offensive freedom when he signed with Toronto last summer.
    Traded players often complain about their former employer, but the refrain of grumbling directed at Carlisle has put one of the most successful coaches in franchise history in a defensive posture in the minds of many who follow the Pacers.

    Not his mind, though. Nor, apparently, the minds of his bosses.
    Most NBA franchises take the quickest and easiest option when frustrations mount and fire the coach. Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh and president Larry Bird, however, gave Carlisle an offseason contract extension and began tossing sticks of dynamite at the roster.

    Just five players who started the 2005-06 season -- Jeff Foster, Danny Granger, David Harrison, Jermaine O'Neal and Jamaal Tinsley -- remain, and more trades could come before the Feb. 22 deadline. It's been a startling turn of events for a franchise noted for its stability, but Carlisle works in the eye of the storm.

    He's midway through his fourth season as coach. If he returns next season he'll have the longest coaching tenure in franchise history since Bob "Slick" Leonard was fired in 1980 after nearly 12 full seasons.

    Although his style has annoyed some players, Carlisle has accumulated an envious resume as coach in Detroit and Indiana. He hasn't had a losing record, and likely won't this season, either. He led the Pacers to a franchise-record 61 victories in 2003-04 and coached in the All-Star Game.
    He was named Coach of the Year with the Pistons in 2002 (though starters there griped about his offense, too, and he was fired a year later after being swept in the conference finals). He is the only coach in league history to finish among the top five vote-getters for the award in each of his first four seasons.

    "It's been pretty clear to me that Donnie, Larry, (owners Mel and Herb Simon) and I have a similar vision in how we see this franchise and the kind of basketball we want to play," Carlisle said. "That's one of the reasons this is a great job. You're with people who work toward finding a way to make it work rather than looking for reasons to make negative changes."

    Negative changes are in the eye of the beholder, of course, but the eight-player trade with Golden State on Jan. 17 gave the Pacers a refreshed outlook, a calmer personality and renewed hope.

    It also took pressure off Carlisle, ridding him of four frustrated players and bringing in four -- Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, Ike Diogu and Keith McLeod -- who were equally eager for a fresh start and claim to prefer a system such as his.

    Questions related to offensive tempo, play-calling and team discipline rub a raw nerve for Carlisle, who has grown tired of defending himself every time a departed player speaks out.

    He chooses his words carefully, however, offering responses that won't insult anyone.

    "Trades are difficult," he said. "They can be emotional, especially for players. Things are said and I think it's important as a coach not to overreact."
    Carlisle is cerebral and soft-spoken by nature; discipline doesn't come naturally to him.

    But he believes the convoluted job title he was given over the summer (executive vice president of basketball operations) has enabled him to be more strict. He made that point by kicking Jackson off the bench in a game at Cleveland in December and suspending him for the next game.

    Some players regard Carlisle's offense as complicated, requiring thought processes that impede their instinct and momentum.

    O'Neal recently called it "complicated" and said he still fails to execute it properly on occasion, but said it makes the Pacers difficult to prepare for and caters to their individual strengths. Carlisle considers his system fairly typical. He said he simplified it before the season, and simplified it again after the trade.

    As for his tendency to call plays on most possessions, he believes that to be a necessary evil for his particular team. He points out he has turned his team loose when appropriate, an example being Game 4 of the 2004 playoff series against Detroit, when he inserted Croshere into the starting lineup, and got a road victory.

    "My thing is putting players in position to succeed," he said. "Of course you want the game to be fun. I don't enjoy making a lot of play calls. I don't like it, despite what people think. Every coach would love to have a situation where players could read and react and make the right plays, but as a coach you need to provide direction when it's needed."

    Carlisle finds the complaints about tempo particularly annoying. They date to his tenure in Detroit, where players described his half-court sets as too predictable.

    After Walsh and Bird made offseason moves to build a more athletic team, Carlisle attempted to install a faster pace of play. In his mind, however, it wasn't working.

    His initial frontline of Harrington, O'Neal and Danny Granger wasn't rebounding or defending well. He addressed that by starting Jeff Foster in place of Granger and moving Harrington to small forward. The Pacers were more physical, but according to his calculations, their fastbreak points dropped 25 percent.

    Carlisle still wants his players to run off opponents' missed shots, and he still devotes time to it in practice. But players must get defensive stops, rebound and sprint downcourt if they want easy points.

    Walsh said that wasn't happening. "I went to practices," Walsh said. "I thought we wanted to run, but I didn't see our players running. It wasn't like I didn't see Rick trying to push it forward. I know there's some idea we should blame it on the coach, but I watched it. I didn't see the players getting out and running."

    The Pacers' most energetic player, veteran guard Darrell Armstrong, has played on up-tempo teams and knows the sacrifices that have to be made. He wasn't seeing them, either. Running isn't easy," he said. "Running is a lot of discipline. You have to be willing to hit that sideline (and rest) sometimes. It's one thing to do it in practice, but can you do it when the lights come on?"

    The other half of the offensive equation is Carlisle's desire to run the offense through his leading scorer and only All-Star, O'Neal. When the Pacers run, O'Neal tends to get left behind, something he and Carlisle object to strenuously.
    "We have a responsibility to play through our franchise player," Carlisle said. "If we're running up and down the court shooting jump shots, Jermaine O'Neal doesn't touch the ball as much."

    That's why O'Neal is on board with Carlisle's system, and with the trade. Harrington and Jackson were close friends, but O'Neal is happier with the revised roster.

    "The trade is going to benefit me a lot," O'Neal said. "I guess sometimes you have to sacrifice friendships to gain in other areas. (The new players) do a lot of different things we didn't have before."

    The Pacers are 6-2 since the trade and appear to be headed for another playoff appearance.

    If their traded imports adapt well, they have legitimate hopes for a high seed in the wide-open East. Should that happen, and should they have some success in the playoffs, Carlisle won't have to defend himself any longer.
    The record will speak for him.

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...TS04/702040415

    Hmmmmm......

    Yet I'm pretty sure we were told on here over & over again that the game 8 meeting had nothing to do with how many touches, just where his touches came from.

    I'm still seeing the sun but I fully believe that the entire offense that many of us hate is at the very least 50/50 the fault of the franchise player and the coach. But my gut feeling is that it is a lot more of the player than the coach.


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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Hmmmmm......

    Yet I'm pretty sure we were told on here over & over again that the game 8 meeting had nothing to do with how many touches, just where his touches came from.

    I'm still seeing the sun but I fully believe that the entire offense that many of us hate is at the very least 50/50 the fault of the franchise player and the coach. But my gut feeling is that it is a lot more of the player than the coach.
    Be that as it may, we have to play to our franchise guy's strengths. I'm sorry but Al Harrington wasn't going to be putting up JO numbers and playing JO defense or passing like JO is right now anytime soon or ever. I am A-OK adjusting to the franchise guy. This is JO's team. He is our all-star. Btw, that's six-time all-star. Six times straight. And I would argue that this is as impressive as we've seen him play yet.

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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    I'm confused, why does JO get left behind on the break?

    Because he gets most of the rebounds. He should be throwing good outlet passes that start the break and then being in position to trail the play and get a handoff if the first players up the floor cant score. Duncan probbly doesn't get many fast break points, but is involved every time they are in a half court set. Yet the Spurs are an efficient fast break team, why cant the Pacers aspire to this? JO is more athletic than Duncan.

    The team still has to establish its identity so they can work out when to run and when to slow the pace.

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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Now now Peck, look at the bright side and quote the whole quote:

    "The other half of the offensive equation is Carlisle's desire to run the offense through his leading scorer and only All-Star, O'Neal. When the Pacers run, O'Neal tends to get left behind, something he and Carlisle object to strenuously."

    JO bought into RC's system when he came here, he gave his word, for that to be changed, RC has to change the system and nothing I have seen so far would give me the impression that JO would not "Buy into" any any other system the coach wants to run.

    RC is not only a psychologist, he is also a mathematician, he wants high percentage shots and plays, fast breaks with 40% shots from outside are not that.

    I can't believe after all we're seeing of JO this year, the blocking, the D, the taking charges like no other "star" in the league, the high scoring, the rebounding, that anyone would still think he's a "me first" player.

    JO is not interested in his numbers, which btw would be probably league leading if he did, but in winning with the team.

    As RC said: "this team is all about winning, for the team".

    As Al said in a blip today in the press however:

    "I went in extremely optimistic that it would work, but as soon as I got there, I knew it wouldn't. Things hadn't changed," Harrington told the Chronicle. "On the court, I knew I wasn't going to be able to set out what I wanted to accomplish."


    says so much more since he follows that up with his play, unlike JO.
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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Show me the players who get BETTER with their newfound freedom after they leave Indiana and Rick Carlisle.

    Did Artest get better?

    Obviously it's too soon to know on most of the recent trades. It seems like it only took about 3 games for Nellie to decide that Saras should be a DNP-CD. Anthony Johnson never plays, so it's hard to say that he is thriving under his new freedom.

    If guys are more concerned with freedom, fun, and lots of touches than winning, then it's good for them and even better for us that they find a new place to play.

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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    able, that quote by Al caught my eye also. Hey Al, what about what the "team" wanted to accomplish.

    Good to know that Al is having the most fun in his life playing for the Warriors.

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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Be that as it may, we have to play to our franchise guy's strengths. I'm sorry but Al Harrington wasn't going to be putting up JO numbers and playing JO defense or passing like JO is right now anytime soon or ever. I am A-OK adjusting to the franchise guy. This is JO's team. He is our all-star. Btw, that's six-time all-star. Six times straight. And I would argue that this is as impressive as we've seen him play yet.
    I was going to say pretty much the same thing, but you beat me to it. I'm sure no Pacers fan was saying "don't cater to Reggie's style of play" when he was the franchise player.

    Fact is, Jermaine Oneal is the face of the Pacers right now, and as much as many of us would love to see a run-n-gun style offense in Naptown, it just ain't gonna happen - not with JO as the franchise player, and certainly not with this group of players. That in no way means this team can't compete with teams that play a more uptempo style, but rather you can expect to see more of the tranditional half-court style w/emphasis on team defense and the occasional fast break. Point in the paint is fast become this team's strong area, and thanks to Foster, Murphy, JO and a whole lot of hustle from various players "team" rebounding on scrappy play is starting to get noticed.

    But the bottom line is you have to build a team around the strength of one or two players and go from there. And right now, that one player for the Pacers is Jermaine Oneal. I have no problem with that as long as everyone else around him accepts their role. From the looks of it since the trade, I'd say they have.
    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    Show me the players who get BETTER with their newfound freedom after they leave Indiana and Rick Carlisle.

    Did Artest get better?

    Obviously it's too soon to know on most of the recent trades. It seems like it only took about 3 games for Nellie to decide that Saras should be a DNP-CD. Anthony Johnson never plays, so it's hard to say that he is thriving under his new freedom.

    If guys are more concerned with freedom, fun, and lots of touches than winning, then it's good for them and even better for us that they find a new place to play.
    ...

    It's funny you should say that. Not long ago, I started a thread on the IndyStar/Pacers forum on this very theme, "The Grass Isn't Always Greener on the Other Side," I got some pretty interesting comments from one poster in particular. To finally read someone here mention this very issue...either you've already read the thread or folks are finally starting to pickup on how this "Away they go...off in their little fantasy world" trend for former Pacers.

    I generally don't wish former players ill-will, but a part of me is really hoping the Pacers win big tonight and that Al not only falls flat on his face (figurative speaking, of course, not literally) but that the Warriors fail to make the playoffs and the Pacers go deep. Then we'll see if they still thing RC's offense is "boring" and "too restricting".

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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Color me a pessimist....but given the level of change that was made and the resulting change to the mentality of the team.....I would be surprised if we make it to the ECF.

    My philosophy is always to aim low....that way...its not only easy to hit your target ( such as making it past the 1st round to make it to the 2nd round of the Playoffs )...if you end up doing better then you expected ( such as making it to the ECF )...it will be a pleasant surprise. But if we have a decent showing in the 2nd round of the Playoffs...I will be content.
    "Always shoot for the moon. That way, even if you miss, you'll be among the stars."

    Low expectations might wield the greatest results, but they're often times the most empty. Every team shouldn't have the goal of getting a ring every year, but goals should be realisticly high, never realisticly low.

    BTW, I don't think your goal of a decent 2nd round showing is low. With how many new players the Ps have seen this year, I think that would be an accomplishment. However, next year would be a different story.

  17. #17
    Member OakMoses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Maybe saying this is like kicking a dead horse, but if RC doesn't like to call plays all the time, but feels like he has to, it must be because he doesn't trust the primary decision makers on the court.

    Tinsley's been playing well lately (at least it looks like it from the box scores, I haven't been able to watch the games), but is there anybody here who can say they trust him to make good decisions most of the time?

    This is an extreme example, but if Steve Nash was our PG, we'd fast break more and JO wouldn't be left behind all the time. RC probably wouldn't call so many plays either.

    This isn't a get rid of Tinsley post, I believe this team can win the way they are playing with the current roster. I think a first round playoff victory is well in sight. Honestly, I think that Detroit and a healthy version of Miami are the only teams that could beat the Pacers in the playoffs. Don't count Miami out, they'll be there in the playoffs as a lower seed, and whoever they play will be crying themselves to sleep at night.

    That was a tangent. The whole point of this thread was to say that the pace of this offense and the amount of coach control have just as much to do with Tins as they do with JO.

  18. #18
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star: Xs and groans (Carlisle)

    Hey, it's Peck!

    I've been waiting to see your reaction to the new team... seems like one you'd like.
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