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Some thoughts....

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  • #1

    Some thoughts....

    I purposely held off of posting anything after game 3 because I could not post after game 2. I didn't want to be accused of just posting when things went bad.

    Well it's now after game 4 so I am going to go ahead & post.

    Anybody who thinks this series is over & the pacers will collapse without a fight is overreacting & panicking.

    Anybody who thinks there is no problem & that the Pacers will prevail based solely on homecourt advantage is fooling themselves.

    Here is my concern, we have played four games in the second round & I have yet to see the team play one solid game of basketball. On either end of the floor. It's the common mantra to always say that we need to improve our defense & while that is true, there is something to be said for having an effective offensive scheme. Watch how our offense struggles to get anything other than a turnaround post shot by Jermaine.

    But conversely if Carlisle does nothing else between now & Saturday I want him to figure out a way for our team to defend the Pick & Roll. You would think that Heat have created some new outlandish offensive scheme. They are just pick & rolling us to death.

    To be such a good defensive team & to be beaten so badly by not being able to defend such a basic offensive plan is making me want to pull my hair out.

    Of course it doesn't help that the Heat are shooting like they have laser guided missles.

    Moving on.

    Let's look at the players one at a time.

    Jermaine O'Neal. I'm probably going to **** off some people with this but even though he scored very well last night I have a nasty theory. Does anybody remember way way back in 94 when Larry Brown was our coach? He made a statement that somewhat shocked some people in the media at the time & I have a feeling we got a little bit of that last night. Larry said that one of the keys to the Orlando series was that we let Shaq get his, but we made sure that everybody else had to really really work to get anything. I got the feeling last night as I watched O'neal, who was having a killer night on the offensive end, that the heat were giving us a little of that treatment. Yes he got a double team & sometimes even a triple team, but it wasn't what I would call a hard double/triple team. Think back on this for a min. & remember New Jersey doing this exact same thing to him two seasons ago. But it's hard to fault him for taking what they give him. But in Jermaines case I would really really like for him to step up a little on the defensive end & rebounding a little more wouldn't hurt either.

    Ron Artest. What more can you ask from the guy. He was even crashing the boards last night. He can't defend five players at once. I don't have one thing I would want him doing differantly. His shot selection has even been in the flow of the game. Ron has had a solid series vs. the Heat.

    Jeff Foster. Here is where we are starting to see a little problem. The fact that the guy has no offense is starting to hurt a little here. He's been great on the boards & he has done a fantastic job on defense. But the fact that he hasn't developed a face up jumper hurts. But he is what he is & in truth that's not bad.

    Reggie Miller. I look at Reggie a little differantly than some of you do. I think Reggie still has an ego & sometimes that ego hurts us a little. I think Reggie still wants to be the hero & so do many of us. But what I mean by that is that Reggie will pass & pass & pass till no end during a game, but he wants to be the one who hits that big game breaking three. There is nothing wrong with that & in truth there isn't probably one Pacers fan who wouldn't want the same thing. But sometimes I think his desire to hit the big one gets in the way of him hitting several little ones that could help even more. Game three everybody was complaining that Reggie didn't get more shots, I was complaining that Reggie wasn't taking any of the shots that were given to him. Last night in the first quarter he drove the lane & drew a foul & I was on my feet. I thought, YES, if Reggie is going to do this then we will win this for sure. He did it one other time & then quit. He shot a couple of other nasty looking three's but that was it. Drive the damn ball Reggie. He's not to old, we all know that. I don't think he could give us a game two every game but he must have more production from our shooting guards spot than what he has given us in Miami.

    Jamaal Tinsley. One play stood out to me. I think it was in the second quarter Jamaal stole the ball & he Jermaine & Ron went on a three on one fast break. Instead of filling both lanes J.O. & Ron went to the same spot on the floor, poor Jamaal had to wait & then throw a pass to a covered Ron who mised but got his own board to score. I bring that up because it's just hard to judge Jamaal's offensive ability's when players don't run the right plays. Not to mention that every now & then I get the feeling that we could get into our offensive sets faster if Carlisle would let us. I have no real problem with Jamaal, his offense has been solid & his defense has been at least respectable.

    Al Harrington. Again with the double standards for Al. He has to play a perfect game or people are calling him the problem. He hasn't had the impact that he had vs. the Celtics but I still don't see him as the problem. He needs to play a little better defense, but in all honesty I think that Miami isn't the best matchup for him. Are there things Al could do better, beyond defense, sure. But I just can't blame him for the last two games.

    Fred Jones. Has he taken 10 shots in the last two games? I appreciate the rebounding & defense. But for God's sake if your the shooting guard then at some point in time you have to shoot. We need him slashing to the basket in the worst possible way right now. Outside shots are great but it can't be the only option. We are not drawing fouls because we are not going to the basket.

    Austin Croshere. To my absolute shock he did a decent job of guarding Lamar Odom last night. Not Artest good, but he didn't make a fool of himself either. Much like Fred, drive the damn ball. he drove it once & guess what, he drew a foul. He must rebound the ball better as well. If the three isn't dropping he can still rebound & defend. He needs to do better at both, but he is giving about what you would expect from a 10th man.

    John Bender. ed:

    Anthony Johnson. I have been a supporter of his for most of the season, but at the end of the season I kind of wanted Anderson to get some min. I want Kenny Anderson to get all of the backup min. in this series. A.J. is really strugling to run the offense. I don't think that he is as bad as Ragnar thinks & I am not saying to not use him. But in this series I just think Anderson could bring a little more to the table (read: offense).

    Ok, now I am going to go off course here.

    Anybody who has read what I've written over the years knows that I absolutely believe in giving the opposition credit. I still believe that & Miami should be given credit for playing well.

    But unlike many of you I just don't think they are a very good team. They are a very well coached team, but talent wise there is no reason we should have lost a single game to these guys. Of course it's damn hard to sweep anybody, so them catching game three wasn't a big shock. But to tie the series?

    The sad thing to me is if they would somehow manage to suprise us & take the series, I just don't see them taking more than one game from either Detroit or N.J.

    BTW, I don't think they will take us but here is the real problem now.

    We know we have the talent. Hell this may be the most talented Pacers team ever.

    We know we have the coaching. Rick has done a fine job so far.

    What we don't know is how mentally tough they are. They looked very very deflated in the third quarter to me.

    I am very very scared about the game Saturday. I don't want to call any game a must win, unless it's an elimination game, but game 5 is as close to a must win game as we've been in all season long.

    I want to emphasize that I am not predicting doom & gloom. I am just worried.

    Ok, bash away at me.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Some thoughts....

    What we don't know is how mentally tough they are. They looked very very deflated in the third quarter to me.

    I am very very scared about the game Saturday. I don't want to call any game a must win, unless it's an elimination game, but game 5 is as close to a must win game as we've been in all season long.

    I want to emphasize that I am not predicting doom & gloom. I am just worried.

    Ok, bash away at me.
    No bashing from me. The deflated look in the 3rd is what worries me. It looked to me as if we'd already lost the game at that point and they basically gave up.

    This is why I'm thinking we are in big trouble.

    Prove me wrong Pacers

    Water

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Some thoughts....

      I think Reggie still wants to be the hero & so do many of us. But what I mean by that is that Reggie will pass & pass & pass till no end during a game, but he wants to be the one who hits that big game breaking three. There is nothing wrong with that & in truth there isn't probably one Pacers fan who wouldn't want the same thing. But sometimes I think his desire to hit the big one gets in the way of him hitting several little ones that could help even more.
      Great point.
      I like to see Reggie aggressive because we all know he still has that shooting touch. Once you get him active early in the game, the defense has to respect that, thus spreading the floor, thus making more room for Jermaine and Ron.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Some thoughts....

        Dunno exactly what thread to post my game comments on - I'm only going to do it once - so this one seems likely.

        First, player notes (this will be brief). Having a shooting guard who won't shoot (or can't) is never a good thing.

        Heck, by the second half there were only two players even WILLING to take shots - I swear everyone else looked scared out there. There wasn't any other player in the game who looked willing to make plays.

        By 6 minutes left in the game I wanted (don't any of those who've known me for very long pass out or anything) Bender in. I just thought that maybe he could make something happen (of course his play that sticks in my mind was the jump ball travesty).

        Most of my comments are more general.

        Defense: OK, WTF is with all this flying around, jumping past and diving after people. Did everyone study a manual on "How to forget how to play Position Defense" in the last few days? I got the sense that on defense they felt the need to make spectacular plays on every possession. I have never seen (well, I probably have - this is for effect) a more poorly organized, gambling, players-out-of-position effort in my life. How many possessions did the Heat end up with a 5-on-3 break 15 seconds into the shot clock because two Pacers had just gone flying past someone to end up 35 feet from the basket?

        The effort was there but the execution was horrible. It was an ugly thing. Good defense doesn't mean getting a steal or a block on every possession. It means forcing players to try to score from places where they aren't comfortable. Does Eddie Jones want to shoot 20-footers instead of slash to the basket? Get a hand in his face and let him. Does Brian Grant want to shoot 15 footers? Let him. Does Lamar Odom want to shoot 3-pointers? Let him. I swear that on defense the Pacers spent more time in the air than with their feet planted on the ground. Looked like a Peter Pan rehearsal.

        And the defense of the high screen to free the ballhandler was horrible. Switch? What's a switch? Rotations were slow, I didn't sense any communication out there. Ugh.

        Offense. Screens? We don' need no stinkin' screens! Whatever friggin' happened to Reggie running off baseline screens? What happened to the high screen rub-off for Artest? And what happened to everyone except JO and Artest?

        And the motion when Miami came out high to double the ball was nonexistent. I'd watch it, Tinsley would split the double with the ball, look for someone to pass to and .... nothing. Nobody had moved to the open space.

        I've thought all season that the reason the Pacers were a strong threat to win the title came down to 2 main things. First, they're fundamentally sound and second, on offense they have so many different weapons.

        Neither of those were in effect last night.

        And down the stretch there was one team that looked like playoff rookies, lost their composure, couldn't figure out a game plan, while another team looked like a veteran playoff team that had been there before and knew what it took to win. I think we all know which was which.

        I don't see any huge roster changes that need to be made. The team just needs to play the way they can and face the fact that Miami is a well-coached, fundamentally sound team with some players who will make some plays. The Pacers need to play like a well-coached, fundamentall sound team with more players who can make plays.
        The poster formerly known as Rimfire

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Some thoughts....




          Jeff Foster. Here is where we are starting to see a little problem. The fact that the guy has no offense is starting to hurt a little here. He's been great on the boards & he has done a fantastic job on defense. But the fact that he hasn't developed a face up jumper hurts. But he is what he is & in truth that's not bad.


          Jamaal Tinsley. One play stood out to me. I think it was in the second quarter Jamaal stole the ball & he Jermaine & Ron went on a three on one fast break. Instead of filling both lanes J.O. & Ron went to the same spot on the floor, poor Jamaal had to wait & then throw a pass to a covered Ron who mised but got his own board to score. I bring that up because it's just hard to judge Jamaal's offensive ability's when players don't run the right plays. Not to mention that every now & then I get the feeling that we could get into our offensive sets faster if Carlisle would let us. I have no real problem with Jamaal, his offense has been solid & his defense has been at least respectable.





          Well Peck, I certainly am not going to bash away, as always you make some excellent points, and I wish I could write as well as you, I suppose I could if I did two or three drafts.

          I specifically wants to comment on Jeff and Jamaal.

          Foster: as all of you know I am a huge fan and supporter of his, I love his game, and think his defense is excellent. But last night especially in the third quarter the Heat did not even get close to guarding him, and that essentially stopped our offense, it was painful to watch. His hip I think has limited him a little and if Jeff loses any of his quickness he is ineffective. This put Carlisle in a bind last night because you could not play Jeff in the 2nd half last night, and with AL playing terrible, Cro was the guy and he did fairly well.

          How can Jeff improve his offensive game. It is not going to happen during these playoffs. This summer Jeff needs to work on his game non-stop, but that will mean nothing, if Jeff does not shoot in team practices, and that won't mean a thing if Jeff does not shoot during real NBA games. From game #1 next season jeff needs to take the open shot, every time, if he is shooting 35% in November, I don't care, keep shooting, he needs to get used to shooting during games, and I think if he shoots enough he can be effective enough that it is not a problem next season. Just like Fred did this season, he was allowed and encouraged to shoot, and as the season went on he got better


          Tinsley: He has played very, very well, i don't judge him on his shooting %, as long as he takes good shots, I have no problems. Except for his defense in the second half in game #3, after his ankle injury, his defense has been good. he will never be confused with Jason Kidd defensively, I have learned to accept that, as long as he stays in the game mentally, I am ok.


          As far as game #5, it is not about X's and O's, not about who should play more or less, and it is certainly not about who gets the backup minutes. Anytime a series gets to games 5,6,7, it comes down to heart, desire, effort, togetherness, and shotmaking.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Some thoughts....

            I don't want to call any game a must win, unless it's an elimination game, but game 5 is as close to a must win game as we've been in all season long.
            I'll do it. Game 5 is a must win. For the Pacers the swagger is gone, and doubt is starting to creep in. For the heat, they have a lot of confidence and momentum now.

            I think that 11 day layoff really messed the Pacers up. They were locked in against the Celtics (though the Celtics were not that good). But they haven't really put together a solid game against the Heat.

            Having this series go 6 or 7 games, could be great for the Pacers. They need to get back to where they were 2 weeks ago, plus they won't have a big layoff for the next round.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Some thoughts....

              Rick could not devise a plan with Detroit to stop the pick and roll, what makes you think he smartened up.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Some thoughts....

                I think that 11 day layoff really messed the Pacers up. They were locked in against the Celtics (though the Celtics were not that good). But they haven't really put together a solid game against the Heat.
                Bingo. If I could point to anything this would be it. Momentum is a very difficult thing to regain. In any endeavor.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Some thoughts....

                  Rick could not devise a plan with Detroit to stop the pick and roll, what makes you think he smartened up.
                  Because we were defending the pick and roll well earlier in the year, and have stopped.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Some thoughts....

                    I don't know where to put my comments this morning, but I've been waiting on one of Peck's good long posts all week so here goes.

                    I can live with dropping both games in Miami. I think they've got some legit talent. Yes, they overpayed for Eddie Jones and Brian Grant, but those are two *fine* ballplayers. At the right price, I'd love to have those guys on my team. Wade and Odom are truly rising stars. However, I think the rest of thier guys are seriously overrated.

                    I keep harping on this, but when those four guys are on the floor, we can't try to rely on our alleged depth advantage. Now I think our best lineup against Miami is Tinsley/ Freddie/ Ron/ Al/ JO so that lineup or starting lineup needs to comprise at least 90% of the minutes in the game. Yes, for us to win game #6 in Miami, I'm expecting Tinsley, Ron and JO to go the distance.

                    I'm just disappointed that we started to lose our composure during the last two minutes.

                    Has anybody corrected all the media articles, last night I kept reading that Tinsley was ejected for the flagrant foul? That would mean it was a Type #2 flagrant foul and I don't believe that's true. He was ejected because the double-technical (when Eddie Jones locked him up) was his second. I thought Eddie Jones overreacted to that play, yes it was a hard foul but it wasn't dirty and it was immediately ruled to be flagrant. And, since Jamaal was behind the play, that was all he could do. For the life of me, I don't understand why Ron needed to make an open court tackle a minute later? Oh, and I thought I saw a punch when Eddie Jones and Tinsley were locked up, but on super-slo-mo I think Reggie took a swipe at Tinsley. The hand that smacked Tinsley definitely had a yellow wrist band on it.

                    Peck, your point on Miami's strategy of to let JO have "his" but shut down everyone else was dead-on. JO didn't receive any help because that Miami's well-executed game plan. And we played right into thier trap. Many people have commented on here about SVG's excellent coaching this season. So far, his team is winning the strategy/ preparation battle in this series. Some of that is Rick's stubborn style rearing its ugly head, and some of it is just that coaching is irrefutably in the Van Gundy family's blood.

                    Why in the world does Reggie always follow up a Retro-Reggie game with several consecutive Old-Reggie games. Frankly, he's really hurt us the past two games because of his reluctance to take open shots or attack the basket. IMO, if I can sense his reluctance, then Rick should too. And then Rick should get Fred Jones in the game. No, Fred is not as good as Reggie, but with Fred you've got a chance to play five-on-five at both ends of the court. When Reggie is refusing to shoot, we're playing four-on-five at both ends of the court.

                    Rimfire, your comments on position defense and our lack of discipline at the defensive end were right-on, IMO. That's what we've excelled at all season, but since our 11-day break we seem to be struggling to get that back. bp mentioned this the other day and I couldn't get that thought out of my head last night. We played well at the offensive end in the first half last night, and didn't have anything to show for it. Then we got smoked in the second half.

                    Okay, fire away at me.
                    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                    And life itself, rushing over me
                    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Some thoughts....

                      For the life of me, I don't understand why Ron needed to make an open court tackle a minute later?
                      I dunno either... that was at least 3 qtrs if not 2 games too late.

                      Yes, I am saying that a Pacer needed to foul Wade hard on one of his frequent trips to the basket instead of just being poster material.

                      -Bball
                      Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                      ------

                      "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                      -John Wooden

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Some thoughts....

                        Jay, Reggie Miller is better than Freddie Jones in following Eddie Jones around screens. Let me say that again so there is no confusion, I have watched it very closely and Reggie is better than Freddie at following Eddie around screens, and that is what Eddie does 90% of the time.

                        Freddie, I believe due to a lack of experience, just is not good yet at guarding his man around and through screens.

                        So I don't think that Reggie when he is guarding Eddie is a defensive liability.

                        Now when Wade goes to the shooting guard, then yes Fred needs to come in and he usually does.


                        I realize I have zero credibility on this topic, but I did not think Artest foul was that bad. Flagrant OK, but if you watch it again from two or three agles, Ron tried to grab Wade, but Wade lost his balance and that caused Ron to fall on him.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Some thoughts....

                          I realize I have zero credibility on this topic, but I did not think Artest foul was that bad. Flagrant OK, but if you watch it again from two or three agles, Ron tried to grab Wade, but Wade lost his balance and that caused Ron to fall on him.
                          Unclebuck I saw the same thing you did.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Some thoughts....

                            Jay, Reggie Miller is better than Freddie Jones in following Eddie Jones around screens. Let me say that again so there is no confusion, I have watched it very closely and Reggie is better than Freddie at following Eddie around screens, and that is what Eddie does 90% of the time.

                            Freddie, I believe due to a lack of experience, just is not good yet at guarding his man around and through screens.

                            So I don't think that Reggie when he is guarding Eddie is a defensive liability.

                            Now when Wade goes to the shooting guard, then yes Fred needs to come in and he usually does.


                            I realize I have zero credibility on this topic, but I did not think Artest foul was that bad. Flagrant OK, but if you watch it again from two or three agles, Ron tried to grab Wade, but Wade lost his balance and that caused Ron to fall on him.
                            If you, of all people, don't think Reggie is a defensivle liability right now, then I'll reconsider and get back to you after game #5.

                            Actually, I was fine with the call on Ron's foul, it certainly didn't merit a flagrant #2. I just didn't think it was necessary.
                            Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                            Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                            Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                            Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                            And life itself, rushing over me
                            Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                            Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Some thoughts....



                              I realize I have zero credibility on this topic, but I did not think Artest foul was that bad. Flagrant OK, but if you watch it again from two or three agles, Ron tried to grab Wade, but Wade lost his balance and that caused Ron to fall on him.
                              Two problems with the foul (well, as others have said it should've been 1st quarter, not after the game was lost).

                              1. No play on the ball - Ron was way too far from him and basically made a football play

                              2. A fairly hard foul while a player was going full speed.

                              It definitely earned him a flagrant but I don't see any reason for a suspension - or for Tinsley (in a lot of ways Tinsley's was worse because instead of wrapping him around the body he went above his shoulders).
                              The poster formerly known as Rimfire

                              Comment

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