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Thread: Post Trade Thoughts

  1. #51
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Of those 22 starting point guards, Tinsley would rank...

    Points-----17th
    Rebounds--9th
    Assists----10th
    Steals-----5th
    Effeciency-16th
    Ast/TO----12th
    FG%-------21st
    3PT%------13th
    FT%-------22nd
    Salary----- 11th Right in the middle with only one player not in his rookie contract making less than he ...Mike James makes around 500,000 less.

    I don't think anyone, including Tinsley, ever said he was the best point guard in the league. He's certainly not paid like one, nor was he drafted to be one. I think it's arguable whether or not those 22 players are undeniably better that Jamaal. This arguement rings true for our starting shooting guard,small forward and center as well. I can name 20 better guys at each position but I don't remember why that matters really.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    I don't think anyone, including Tinsley, ever said he was the best point guard in the league. He's certainly not paid like one, nor was he drafted to be one. I think it's arguable whether or not those 22 players are undeniably better that Jamaal. This arguement rings true for our starting shooting guard,small forward and center as well. I can name 20 better guys at each position but I don't remember why that matters really.
    This is a really great point.... we talk about how "Tin's" is the problem with this team yet other then JO all our other players on our team really rate at the bottom half PLUS at their position.... similiar to Tin's position.. maybe this needs to go in the how bad is our coach thread... and before I get blasted by those wondering why I have Granger at the bottom half plus is becuase sure in time he might warrent consideration as a elite player but he has not come close to reaching that potential yet.
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  3. #53
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    ... which should tell you that statistics and talent alone mean almost nothing when the heart, right team attitude or Bball intelligence is just not there.

    Those other players might be at the bottom half at their position, personally I don't aggree with Murphy beying listed there but thats besides the point now, but they do mostly "play the right way" and well in a team concept which makes them more valuable then their statistics might indicate.

    My beef with Tins, except for his shooting numbers and FG%, are not with his numbers, but with those other things I just mentioned. Positively though, it has to be said, he has remained healthy this year which has me positively surprised.

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  4. #54
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Yeah but heart alone doesn't win basketball games. These Tinsley isn't as good as Nash or Parker arguements are silly and irrelevant. Tinsley doesn't belong in the same malcontent category as Jackson and Artest, yet is often blasted as if he's demanding trades or more touches. In reality, he just goes about his business and keeps winning the Indiana Pacers starting point guard position despite Carlisle's best efforts to supplant him with lesser players over the last few years. I think Tinsley has shown heart by fighting his way back to the top of the point guard list despite constant challenges by coaches, injuries and personal grief.

    I'd also like to point out that Tinsley has become the new post trade scapegoat. We should be talking about how the pieces we sent packing were better both offensively and defensively. How they tied up less money over less years. How this trade inexplicably left us with a 38 year old back up point guard who's running on pure energy and hustle, which will run out in time. Which begs the question how is a 38 year old career average point guard beating out young point guards who are supposed to bring the exact thing he's making a second career out of. Isn't Orien Greene supposed to be a defensive energy player wasn't Runi supposed to be a fiery high octane international player? Instead of getting angry over the fact that the actual talented players we sent packing are literally tearing it up in Oakland people are pointing and laughing at how Nelson has told Al to lose 10 pounds and start hitting the boards...why didn't Carlisle take that stance? Indiana fans are wondering if Rawle Marshall should start at the two guard while Al Harrington is dropping over 25 a game out West. Everybody is praising Dunleavy's effort and basketball IQ while Jackson is hitting almost 50% of his three's and Al is hitting almost 65% of his while Dunleavy is shooting sub 40% from the field. Powell has put up 10 boards and 16 points in 2 games while Diogu has given us 10 and 12 in 5 games.

    Those are just points we should be talking about in a thread titled post trade thoughts. Why does everything have to go back to Tinsley Sucks?

  5. #55

    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    Why does everything have to go back to Tinsley Sucks?
    Because his inability to stop dribble penetration has been the primary defensive weakness of this team for many years now

    and

    at no position on the court do the Pacers have a starter who is arguably less talented than 25-35 other players in the league that play his position, including some backups?

  6. #56
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    If he's constantly getting beat by dribble penetration why doesn't Carlisle make some sort of defensive adjustment? You have to remember Tinsley can beat his man off the dribble just as often as he gets beaten. Why we aren't exploiting that more, I have no idea. He can also post up on most point guards in the league and we aren't exploiting that either. He also has an uncanny knack for finding the open man but we keep walking it up the court...waiting for JO to get into position with 12 seconds left on the shot clock...lob it into him and see what he does. Then everybody comes on the message boards to blast Tinsley for holding the ball too long and slowing down the tempo and not getting enough assists or ball movement.

    There are 25-30 better swingmen than the 3 we currently have. I'd have to actually look up the centers.

  7. #57
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Able I wish I would have been on last night to help you with the JT attacks. Truth be told, all this is is a greener grass argument.

    I'll get you next time.

  8. #58

    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    I like Tinsley. But the team needs to trade him while he still has some value at all and try to get a young PG who can shoot.

    Here's my post-trade thought: Why does everyone talk about Dunleavy's passing when he's averaging 2.8 APG with the P's? That would be fine if he was shooting lights out, but we all know that isn't the case.

  9. #59

    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Tinsley has his strengths and he has his weaknesses just like every player.

    The problem that I have is that to change his weaknesses it is easier said than done.

    It's things like this:
    - Decision making (you can put a lot of things in here like going one on one after he gets beat on defense, making sloppy passes, bad shot selection, holding the ball to long, etc.)
    - Poor shooting percentage. I don't know what is worse, his shooting percentages or the fact that it may be common for your point guard to shoot like that. Ouch.
    - Defense. It's not that great IMO. He can get some steals but because he doesn't have great quickness he gets beat easily.

    You can't really just go to the gym and work on your decision making. You have to study film and go out on the court and know what decisions to make and do it. I've seen Tinsley improve his jump shot, I think it shows that he has worked on that since his rookie year. The problem is that he takes bad shots which lead to a bad shooting percentage.

    Now I would love to have a scorer at the point because I think that could really be the missing piece to this team, get someone like say Devin Harris (just throwing out a name) that can get you 15-20 points a night. The problem is that those guys aren't avaliable. Another opition is to get a half court orianted point guard ala Derek Fisher. Someone who can shoot, run the offense, and play smart defense.

    The problem is that Tinsley is really right in the middle of the pack of point guards in this league where he isn't enough of an upgrade or is too much of a down grade for a team to make a trade. His salary also hurts because it is higher and longer than probably most of the point guards we have interest in.

  10. #60

    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    In the six games since the trade was announced, JO is shooting .396 from the field. What's up with that? Are they forcing the ball into him because they don't know what else to do with it? Isn't Murphy's jump shot supposed to open up the floor for Jermaine? Prior to the trade he was shooting .460 now his average has fallen to .449.

    Jermaine hasn't gotten good positioning since the trade, and on top of that teams are collapsing on him more. He's been forced to take tough shots and a couple of passes that normally find him wide open at the elbow have been off. I think it'll take time for opponents to respect Granger/Murphy as much as Jackson/Harrington. So far, it's been worse for Jermaine (and he's playing more minutes).

  11. #61

    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    He's been forced to take tough shots... I think it'll take time for opponents to respect Granger/Murphy as much as Jackson/Harrington.
    I disagree. I think that he is getting better shots already, but he is just in a (hopefully short) shooting slump and missing them, like the Miami game when he started out something like 3-17 and he was missing open 10 footers.

    The D already respects Murphy's outside shot exponentially more than Foster's (who Murphy replaced in the lineup), and Granger vs. Al and Dunleavy vs. Jackson are probably each as wash in terms of how much the D respects the perimeter threat. His new teammates do need to better learn the spots where Jermaine can easily catch the ball and shoot without holding the ball too much.

  12. #62

    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    I believe that JT was the starting PG the season before KA arrived, and (KA) was handed the starting position striaght away.
    Miek bringing JT in and JT singlehandedly bringing us almost back to a win from (if memory serves me) 28 down, was why he got "more" minutes after that and the starting pos back few games later.

    It is called "benching" if that happens to a starter.

    Isiah Thomas was the coach the previous season. And, at the beginning of the season, Rick said every starting position (with the exception of Reggie/JO) was open to whoever played the best. Again, that's not benching. Kenny Anderson "won" the starting spot.



    I sincerely suggest you watch that game again, there are at least 3 passes that "go through the hands" )TM twice, MD once "at least".

    Those passes were deflected by the opponent. Why else do you think we got the ball back?


    Last night (Det) MD was the recipient of 3 passes in rapid succession in the beginning of the game, he went 0-3 despite being open.
    Uh, Dunleavy dunked at the beginning of the game, did not miss his first shot until 6:06 in the first quarter.

    A PG not throwing the ball to "new" players is not strange, they may be out of position, the passing lane mightbe closed despite the player being "open" and so on, familiarity of "where they want the ball" is also very important, better to go "safe" then to "risk" another turnover.
    But he wasn't. I've seen six times in the past three games where Dunleavy had a wide open layup chance on a fast break and Tinsley didn't even look at him. And Tinsley had no problem finding Murphy. In fact, he's passed it to Murphy more than Dunleavy and Granger combined in the first quarter of the past three games.

    It's not strange to be unfamiliar with a new player, but it's very strange to not pass it to a wide open player, especially when it happens to be the same player a repeated number of times. And then it stands out even more when a substitution comes in and immediately finds the open player.

    Guess that is why Billups had 3 outstanding games against us.
    You think that Tinsley's defense has ever caused an opponent to have an off-night? Not even above-average defenders do that.


    Simple answer: every facet of the game is better.

    You said Tinsley was having a great game when he was 1-6 with 2 AST and 3 TOs, so I can see why you might think that.

  13. #63

    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    I'd also like to point out that Tinsley has become the new post trade scapegoat. We should be talking about how the pieces we sent packing were better both offensively and defensively. How they tied up less money over less years.
    These are good arguments and most have contended that in order to get rid of the almost untradeable Jax, we had to take on somebody else's problem. In this case it was the higher salaries.

    How this trade inexplicably left us with a 38 year old back up point guard who's running on pure energy and hustle, which will run out in time. Which begs the question how is a 38 year old career average point guard beating out young point guards who are supposed to bring the exact thing he's making a second career out of. Isn't Orien Greene supposed to be a defensive energy player wasn't Runi supposed to be a fiery high octane international player?
    I'm not exactly sure what we are supposed to be mad at. DA is playing at a high level and he's one of those guys who has taken care of himself. Why should we be mad that he is outplaying guys? Shouldn't we be glad he is playing well?

    Instead of getting angry over the fact that the actual talented players we sent packing are literally tearing it up in Oakland people are pointing and laughing at how Nelson has told Al to lose 10 pounds and start hitting the boards...why didn't Carlisle take that stance? Indiana fans are wondering if Rawle Marshall should start at the two guard while Al Harrington is dropping over 25 a game out West. Everybody is praising Dunleavy's effort and basketball IQ while Jackson is hitting almost 50% of his three's and Al is hitting almost 65% of his while Dunleavy is shooting sub 40% from the field. Powell has put up 10 boards and 16 points in 2 games while Diogu has given us 10 and 12 in 5 games.?
    There is such a thing as having a trade that benefits both teams. You talk about DA running out of gas, yet do you really think Jax is going to keep hitting 3's at a 50% average? What about Troy Murphy averaging 4 double doubles out of the last 5 games? What about getting rid of Sarunas who proved again and again to struggle against guards in the NBA? Harrington is the king of filling up the nets on bad teams, but is that really the issue or is it his inability to be a "team" guy instead of a "me" guy? Diogu is one of those guys that I think few expect an immediate return. He could be one of those potential guys that busts or he can turn into a very solid big man. Dunleavy does have weaknesses, but he works hard out there and doesn't seem to bring the baggage that a guy like Jax had.

    Those are just points we should be talking about in a thread titled post trade thoughts. Why does everything have to go back to Tinsley Sucks?
    Tinsley has had his fans and detractors on this forum for years. But if you were to take a poll of the two most unpopular players at the beginning of the year it would have been 1.)Jax and 2.) Tinsley. There are lots of things to love and hate about his contributions to the team. You have to love his handle and penetration ability, but you have to hate his inconsistency and defense.
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  14. #64
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    I was just pointing out some more appropriate post trade topics other than the usual thread falling into the pro/anti Jamaal Tinsley drivel.

  15. #65
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    I'd like to see the Pacers get Troy Murphy more involved in the offense , he is being wasted player 25 minutes a night and only taking 9 shots a game. The reason he was acquired was to stop double teaming of JO playing that little and limiting his shots is not addressing why he was acquired.

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