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Thread: Post Trade Thoughts

  1. #26
    Gotta Play Big BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by quiller View Post
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    for the record.. nash who is renound on this board for his team ball and such is second on his team in shot attempts.... and I would think most Pg in the league will be in the top three of their teams... I imagine if you we keep record from the trade on I bet even with Tin's starting he will not take more shots on this team then JO, Granger, Murphy and Dun's..... so no I do not see how Tin's is going to hurt this team by taking too many shots... and yes I was disapointed by DA coming off a game where he obviously played a high amount of minutes so he probably had dead legs taking a lot of three point shots... just some other stats.... JT only took 1 3 point shot of his 6-11 DA took 10 shots and was 1-7 from 3

    To me DA should be limited to 15-18 minutes a game in four seperate stretches and Tins getting 30 to 33 minutes....
    The problem is not that Tinsley makes too many shots, it's that he misses such a large percentage of them. BTW, the same can be said about MDJ if he doesn't start shooting better. However, at least MDJ shoots very well at the line.

    I would not mind a shoot first PG if he made his shots. No, I would not mind Nash one bit. But with all due respect, bringing Nash into the conversation simply highlights how much better of a PG Nash is...both in shooting and playmaking.

    The problem with Tinsley is less his attitude and health. It's that his strength is supposed to be on offense...because he is a poor defender. But, he is not only a bad defender, but a poor offensive player with a below avg fg% and below avg in assists as a starting PG.

  2. #27
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    I don't want to start a new thread for this, but I enjoyed reading this article out of the Bay area.


    http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...printstory.jsp



    Kawakami: As dust settles for Warriors, Mullin finds his comfort level

    Tim Kawakami
    Mercury News

    Chris Mullin never rules out anything and loves to fade into the shadows, out of sight, until the lightning strike.

    ``I don't broadcast,'' he said this week, and that's a typical massive understatement from Mr. Radio Silence.

    So imagine my surprise when the Warriors chief recently answered my question about Jason Richardson's future in the most emphatic terms I've heard Mullin use.

    My question: A week ago you gave a rejuvenating jolt to the franchise by trading Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy to Indiana; could Richardson, another of your old favorites, be next out the door?

    ``Jason?'' Mullin said, bolting up in his seat. ``No. I've seen Jason enough to say, `No.' ''

    No, as in: Richardson's not going anywhere. Right, Chris? Anybody asks about him, you say . . .

    ``No,'' Mullin said.

    If you want to know how comfortable Mullin feels about his roster, featuring the additions of ex-Pacers Al Harrington and Stephen Jackson, there it was.

    Mullin has Don Nelson as his coach, Baron Davis, Harrington and Richardson as his centerpieces, Andris Biedrins and Monta Ellis blooming, and now sounds more comfortable than I've ever heard him during his three-season tenure.

    Mullin doesn't deny that the Warriors could use another big man. He won't rule out making any move that could bring the playoffs into view.

    But he said that Richardson is ``absolutely'' on another level than Dunleavy and Murphy. Even though Richardson (due back from his broken hand in a few weeks) hasn't been healthy enough to show much to Nelson yet, Mullin said Richardson has proved his worth.

    ``Nellie's waiting for him with open arms,'' Mullin said.

    Maybe this was just post-trade languor. Maybe Mullin will change his mind if Richardson is the price he has to pay to land a key big man. But it doesn't sound like it.

    ``We're more athletic, longer, just tougher physically,'' Mullin said. ``I think we can match up one-on-one more, offensively and defensively. I think we've seen that. It's been apparent.

    ``It's got me excited. I think it's a nice team for Nellie to have moving forward. And then you talk about one of the top players not having an impact yet. Get him back, let's see what we have.''

    By the way, I talked with Mullin before the Warriors beat New Jersey on Ellis' buzzer-beater Wednesday, which ended a three-game post-trade losing streak and crept the Warriors back to within range of the eighth playoff spot.

    Everything that happened in the game, from Harrington's 29 points to the tight, active defense in the final minutes, illustrated Mullin's point.

    Afterward, Harrington said that he doesn't see the need for more major retooling. You couldn't use one more player, Al?

    ``I really don't think so,'' Harrington said. ``Maybe a `big,' a shot-blocking `big.' But I don't know if he could help us because of the way that we run. For the style that we play, I think this is a great team.

    ``I like the team we've got right now. I'd rather keep the team just how it is.''

    No arguments out of Mullin on that point. The Warriors were 19-20 when he pulled the trigger on the eight-player trade. Murphy was harrowingly bad. Dunleavy was up and down and getting booed either way. Ike Diogu was lost.

    Murphy and Dunleavy had big, long-term contracts handed to them by Mullin. The Warriors were sinking.

    ``I felt like we needed a change,'' Mullin said. ``But a good change. Not any change.''

    He had defended Murphy and Dunleavy for years (mostly from me, I should add). He gave them the big deals and was criticized for both. Was it hard to trade them after so much history?

    ``Not really, no,'' Mullin said. ``I think the world of them and I think they're going to be good players. And part of me thinks that it would've happened here. But I just felt good about the deal.''

    But Dunleavy was your guy from Day One, Chris. Were you in a way letting the world know that he had failed as a Warrior?

    ``I still think the same things about Mike,'' Mullin said. ``Now the one thing that didn't happen was consistency. He played some really good stretches. That's not a secret. But I think as far as his talent and skill level, there's no reason he shouldn't be a really good player.''

    Mullin suggested that he would have been willing to move Dunleavy and/or Murphy last summer. But Nelson, hired in August, wanted to see if Murphy could play center and Dunleavy power forward in Nelson's open offense.

    ``I had a little more feeling about the way our team was, and Nellie wanted to look at it,'' Mullin said. ``That was something we talked about together.''

    Nelson looked at it, and let the whole world know when the experiment failed.

    Did Nelson push you to make this trade? Mullin smiled at that one, and went Radio Silent again.

    He looked comfortable with any possible interpretation. He looked comfortable about everything, as comfortable as he has been in three years.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Check out Tim Kawakami's Talking Points blog at www.mercextra.com/blogs/ kawakami. Contact him at tkawakami@mercurynews.com or (408) 920-5442.

  3. #28

    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    Jamaal left the game in the second quarter with the Pacers down by 3. They were down by 7 at half.

    Miami then opens the second half by scoring on their first 5 possessions to push it up to 18 on two Wade baskets, two Haslem baskets and a Kapono 3. The Pacers during that same stretch went Murphy miss, Dunleavy turnover, JO miss, Dunleavy miss, Dunleavy turnover.

    And it's all Jamaal Tinsley's fault........

    I don't think it's all Jamaal's fault, but I don't think it's coincidence either...especially after about ten straight games where the team plays better with Jamaal out of the lineup.

  4. #29
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I don't think it's all Jamaal's fault, but I don't think it's coincidence either...especially after about ten straight games where the team plays better with Jamaal out of the lineup.
    Uhhhh can you please show the numbers to back that up?

    over the year,

    Darrel:
    PPG 4.2 16.128
    RPG 1.5 5.76
    APG 1.8 6.912
    SPG .81 3.110
    BPG .10 0.384
    FG% .418
    FT% .730
    3P% .325
    MPG 12.5 48



    Jamaal:

    PPG 12.5 19.478
    RPG 3.5 5.436
    APG 6.3 9.786
    SPG 1.59 2.469
    BPG .44 0.683
    FG% .381
    FT% .704
    3P% .313
    MPG 30.9 48

    Their shooting percentage is pretty close, considering everything I would say that JT might not look better in your eyes, but on paper and on the court he remains the better PG, certainly if you consider that most his stats are v starters
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  5. #30
    Redemption. docpaul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Uhhhh can you please show the numbers to back that up?

    over the year,

    Darrel:
    PPG 4.2 16.128
    RPG 1.5 5.76
    APG 1.8 6.912
    SPG .81 3.110
    BPG .10 0.384
    FG% .418
    FT% .730
    3P% .325
    MPG 12.5 48



    Jamaal:

    PPG 12.5 19.478
    RPG 3.5 5.436
    APG 6.3 9.786
    SPG 1.59 2.469
    BPG .44 0.683
    FG% .381
    FT% .704
    3P% .313
    MPG 30.9 48

    Their shooting percentage is pretty close, considering everything I would say that JT might not look better in your eyes, but on paper and on the court he remains the better PG, certainly if you consider that most his stats are v starters
    This is a tough one Able. Tinsley is clearly the player with the better pedigree, the higher expectations, the talk of All Star visits a couple of years ago. Stats that look pretty good compared to Armstrong.

    But don't you have that feeling in your gut that when Armstrong is in there, he just provides that spark? Feels like it to me at least. The only stat that I believe can attempt to quantify those non-tangible contributions is the +/-, and low and behold:

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/plus_minus_0607.html

    I think those data at least point to the possibility that DA is a better presence on the floor. Wish it weren't the case, but.. it is what it is.

  6. #31
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    This is a tough one Able. Tinsley is clearly the player with the better pedigree, the higher expectations, the talk of All Star visits a couple of years ago. Stats that look pretty good compared to Armstrong.

    But don't you have that feeling in your gut that when Armstrong is in there, he just provides that spark? Feels like it to me at least. The only stat that I believe can attempt to quantify those non-tangible contributions is the +/-, and low and behold:

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/plus_minus_0607.html

    I think those data at least point to the possibility that DA is a better presence on the floor. Wish it weren't the case, but.. it is what it is.
    All the plus minus shows you is that when he is in, at times the team scores, and if not he's taken out.

    His energy is great, but something a PG can do 32-34 minutes a night, night in night out, 82 + games a seaons, no way.

    I love what DA brings when he's in, but as a backup.

    If he had to play the Billups, Nash, and other premier PG's night in and night out, for long stretches, his numbers would dwindle.

    There are 30 teams in this leage, there are more teams with a worse PG then ones with a better one.

    On top of all of that, JT as to not only overcome fans that dislike him because he doesn't wear his soul on his sleeve, but also a coach who still doesn't like him.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  7. #32
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    All the plus minus shows you is that when he is in, at times the team scores, and if not he's taken out.

    His energy is great, but something a PG can do 32-34 minutes a night, night in night out, 82 + games a seaons, no way.

    I love what DA brings when he's in, but as a backup.

    If he had to play the Billups, Nash, and other premier PG's night in and night out, for long stretches, his numbers would dwindle.

    There are 30 teams in this leage, there are more teams with a worse PG then ones with a better one.

    On top of all of that, JT as to not only overcome fans that dislike him because he doesn't wear his soul on his sleeve, but also a coach who still doesn't like him.



    On top of all of that, JT as to not only overcome fans that dislike him because he doesn't wear his soul on his sleeve, but also a coach who still doesn't like him.[/quote]

    Wow! How did you arrive at the conclusion that Rick doesn't like Tins?
    Like you told the poster, you got proof of this or is this just a wild accusation that you have conjured up in your mind. I just happen to agree with the poster, the Pacers are better when Tins is on the bench.

  8. #33
    Redemption. docpaul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    All the plus minus shows you is that when he is in, at times the team scores, and if not he's taken out.

    His energy is great, but something a PG can do 32-34 minutes a night, night in night out, 82 + games a seaons, no way.

    I love what DA brings when he's in, but as a backup.

    If he had to play the Billups, Nash, and other premier PG's night in and night out, for long stretches, his numbers would dwindle.

    There are 30 teams in this leage, there are more teams with a worse PG then ones with a better one.

    On top of all of that, JT as to not only overcome fans that dislike him because he doesn't wear his soul on his sleeve, but also a coach who still doesn't like him.
    Fair enough. Hopefully DA will continue to be potent as that backup spark. I think at the end of the day that I've really tried hard to give Tinsley a fresh attempt this year, as he's seemed to be somewhat unhappy over the past couple of years. I think he's genuinely attempted to be more consistent with PT, and to be a little more reliable as a presence on the team. Coming in that game early in the year when he was clearly under the weather, and playing clutch meant a lot to me as a fan at least. He played as if he had something to prove that night. I'd personally like to see that more during routine games. Kind of like what we see from DA.

    I think what most people truly care about at the end of the day though, is the final outcome, and I believe that given the current lineup, there's not really much else to blame underwhelming results on. PG is the team's weakness at this point, and Tinsley really has an opportunity to show why he deserves to be the starter, and deserving of fan's respect/praise.

    Someone who gives a damn about being on the team would ask for nothing more. I think it's up to him now.

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    Fair enough. Hopefully DA will continue to be potent as that backup spark. I think at the end of the day that I've really tried hard to give Tinsley a fresh attempt this year, as he's seemed to be somewhat unhappy over the past couple of years. I think he's genuinely attempted to be more consistent with PT, and to be a little more reliable as a presence on the team. Coming in that game early in the year when he was clearly under the weather, and playing clutch meant a lot to me as a fan at least. He played as if he had something to prove that night. I'd personally like to see that more during routine games. Kind of like what we see from DA.

    I think what most people truly care about at the end of the day though, is the final outcome, and I believe that given the current lineup, there's not really much else to blame underwhelming results on. PG is the team's weakness at this point, and Tinsley really has an opportunity to show why he deserves to be the starter, and deserving of fan's respect/praise.

    Someone who gives a damn about being on the team would ask for nothing more. I think it's up to him now.
    Do you enjoy watching the game more when JT is the pg or when DA is the pg? The last game I didn't care if the pacers won just watching DA bring the team back was enjoyable for me. We have been making excuses for JT for years. Some have to do with ability and some health related. We are stuck with JT because no one is going to give us any one any better. JT just hasn't got what it takes to be a consistent above average player. that's it; it's not his fault that he is just average. I believe he was drafted late in the 1st round and in his case that was where his talent was.

  10. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Uhhhh can you please show the numbers to back that up?

    over the year,

    Darrel:
    PPG 4.2 16.128
    RPG 1.5 5.76
    APG 1.8 6.912
    SPG .81 3.110
    BPG .10 0.384
    FG% .418
    FT% .730
    3P% .325
    MPG 12.5 48



    Jamaal:

    PPG 12.5 19.478
    RPG 3.5 5.436
    APG 6.3 9.786
    SPG 1.59 2.469
    BPG .44 0.683
    FG% .381
    FT% .704
    3P% .313
    MPG 30.9 48

    Their shooting percentage is pretty close, considering everything I would say that JT might not look better in your eyes, but on paper and on the court he remains the better PG, certainly if you consider that most his stats are v starters

    First of all, I wasn't comparing Jamaal to Darrell. I'm comparing the team's play with/without Jamaal in the lineup. Secondly, to use the term "better" to describe team play runs the risk of being too subjective, so no stat I show you will (dis)prove that. I could pull the team's FG%, TO rate, and defensive FG% and points scored and compare the two figures, but then there are other factors (which is why I don't get into +/- that much). But, to me, it's subjectively obvious that the team has been playing better when he is not in the lineup, especially lately. The ball moves better, there's more energy, there's less dribble penetration, and so on. I can't think of a single facet of the game that is better with Tinsley in the lineup. Can you disagree with that?

    I'm definitely not making a case of DA vs. JT here. I'd be perfectly content if Darrell didn't shoot anything other than layups. By the end of the year he'll barely be able to get the ball to the rim with his torn rotator cuff. And we can't expect him to play well in the playoffs if he has to keep exerting this much energy. Ideally, Tinsley will get his act together and play basketball like he did in his rookie season. But that's ideal, and probably nothing more.

  11. #36
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    I might've argued that it's subjectively obvious the ball doesn't move because of JO and Rick, not Jamaal, but I've already reached my basketball post quota for the month.......
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

  12. #37
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    First of all, I wasn't comparing Jamaal to Darrell.
    This is of course in contradiction with:
    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I'm comparing the team's play with/without Jamaal in the lineup.
    If not a comparison between Jamaal and Darrel then why didn't you say others, and you are then basing your entire premise on 1 game. which is incorrect for starters, "every fool.....(etc)"
    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Secondly, to use the term "better" to describe team play runs the risk of being too subjective, so no stat I show you will (dis)prove that. I could pull the team's FG%, TO rate, and defensive FG% and points scored and compare the two figures, but then there are other factors (which is why I don't get into +/- that much). But, to me, it's subjectively obvious that the team has been playing better when he is not in the lineup, especially lately.
    Again, Tinsley has missed one game, so you have seen our starters play 1 game partially with DA, I would suggest that "subjective" is an understatement in that case.
    There are "5 man +/- stats, which have Tinsley in 8 of the 10 best playing lineups, and in the first 6 for good measurement, seems that hard facts do not support your subjective assessment.
    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    The ball moves better, there's more energy, there's less dribble penetration, and so on.
    I must have missed that part, if you are talking about the game v Miami, which can be your only sample with DA playing v starters, then I politely disagree, DA might get 0.6 more of a steal per game, if both would play 48 minutes, but he gets overrun just as hard, and gambles more on defense, with sometimes disastrous results.
    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I can't think of a single facet of the game that is better with Tinsley in the lineup. Can you disagree with that?
    without a problem can I disagree with that, and not only I can, perhaps everybody around the team as well, seeing as Tinsley is still the starting PG adn Rick has shown over the years to have no problem benching JT unlike some other players.
    You also seem to forget that the statistical "truth" you derive from one game and "the backup time" DA played, is that once again there is a whole new starting 5 out there, where 2 players have been constant this season, Tinsley and JO, the bench on the other hand has had very little variation, in other words DA has a "comfortlevel" with those players, hence the few passes Tins throws that are not caught by for instance Murphy and Dunleavy, neither player knows how fast the ball is coming and Tinsley doesn't know enough to know where those players are comfortable receiving the ball; examples, ball to the corner to Murphy through his hands, he hardly saw it, good pass nonetheless, Murphy to Tins, ball back straight away, Murph not ready (though in this one I'm not sure it wasn't Dun).
    Those are plays that will go smooth in a few weeks time.
    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I'm definitely not making a case of DA vs. JT here. I'd be perfectly content if Darrell didn't shoot anything other than layups. By the end of the year he'll barely be able to get the ball to the rim with his torn rotator cuff. And we can't expect him to play well in the playoffs if he has to keep exerting this much energy. Ideally, Tinsley will get his act together and play basketball like he did in his rookie season. But that's ideal, and probably nothing more.
    Perhaps the change of coaching made the difference in his play, perhaps there's not enough synergy between the coach and player(s)
    Tinsley has made an effort to play all games, and has missed only 1 game this season, he has played 33 min avg, has a very good Ast/TO ratio, and his EFF rating is #3 on this team, behind only JO and Murphy.

    I fail to see where you made your point other then subjective and since I do not see things with your eyes, I can not adhere to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    I might've argued that it's subjectively obvious the ball doesn't move because of JO and Rick, not Jamaal, but I've already reached my basketball post quota for the month.......

    To bad, I would've loved to read that
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  13. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    This is of course in contradiction with:

    If not a comparison between Jamaal and Darrel then why didn't you say others, and you are then basing your entire premise on 1 game. which is incorrect for starters, "every fool.....(etc)"

    Like I said, I'm not comparing Jamaal with Darrell; I'm not sure why you spent half of a post trying to counter that.

    I'm comparing team play when Jamaal is in with team play when Jamaal is out.

    Jamaal has been playing subpar nearly all season. But it's been especially noticeable since late December, and became very visible in our first game against Dallas.



    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    There are "5 man +/- stats, which have Tinsley in 8 of the 10 best playing lineups, and in the first 6 for good measurement, seems that hard facts do not support your subjective assessment.

    .....without a problem can I disagree with that, and not only I can, perhaps everybody around the team as well, seeing as Tinsley is still the starting PG adn Rick has shown over the years to have no problem benching JT unlike some other players.
    Well I guess everybody around the team would also disagree that Al played poorly too, since he also remained in the starting lineup.

    By the way, Rick has never benched Tinsley. Kenny Anderson was given the starting job in Rick's first year as coach and Kenny was benched in favor of Tinsley after a stretch of excellent play.



    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    You also seem to forget that the statistical "truth" you derive from one game and "the backup time" DA played, is that once again there is a whole new starting 5 out there, where 2 players have been constant this season, Tinsley and JO, the bench on the other hand has had very little variation, in other words DA has a "comfortlevel" with those players, hence the few passes Tins throws that are not caught by for instance Murphy and Dunleavy..............

    I fail to see where you made your point other then subjective and since I do not see things with your eyes, I can not adhere to that.
    Okay, I'll try it objectively. I don't have a lot of time to sift through games, but if someone wants to add, please feel free. I picked the first quarter of the Miami game for comparison, since I remembered Tinsley coming out at the 6 minute mark (halfway through the quarter). Here are some stats for you:


    --------------------------------------------------------------
    With Tinsley in the lineup:

    Possessions: 12

    8: Possessions with 1 pass
    2: Possessions with 2 passes
    1: Possessions with 3 passes
    1: Possessions with 4 or more passes

    0 Fast Breaks


    With Tinsley out of the lineup:

    Possessions: 11

    3: Possessions with 1 pass
    2: Possessions with 2 passes
    2: Possessions with 3 passes
    4: Possessions with 4 or more passes

    3 Fast Breaks
    -------------------------------------------------------------




    So there you're looking at around 19 passes in 12 possessions with Jamaal in the lineup and 29 passes in 11 possessions with Jamaal out of the lineup. 0 fast breaks with Jamaal in the lineup and 3 with Jamaal out of the lineup. 6 of 11 of Jamaal's passes went to Jermaine, on which he shot twice. 3 went to Murphy. 2 total passes from Jamaal went to the wing players.



    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat
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    ... Originally Posted by imawhat
    Did you know that his first pass to Mike Dunleavy was in the middle-late 3rd quarter (at least that's the first I saw)?...


    You must've gone for snacks at precisely the wrong times......
    Apparently I went for snacks at 7:34 in the 1st and 5:11 in the 2nd, because those were the only two passes that Jamaal threw to Mike Dunleavy in the entire first half.

    On the first substitutions for Jamaal in the first and second quarters, a total of three passes were thrown to Mike Dunleavy in the first 10 seconds by the point guard. And he was just as open and in great position to make a play in both situations.

    But Jamaal did throw it to a completely surrounded Jermaine O'Neal while Mike was wide open with an opportunity to drive or pass to a wide open Granger/Murphy, and twice the ball was deflected from Jermaine.

    Jamaal ended up passing to Mike Dunleavy a whopping total of 6 times for the entire Miami game. And for what it's worth, I've yet to see a single pass from Tinsley to MDJ or TM that has been mishandled.






    able, my sample is very small, but I can guarantee that you could expand that sample into the past month and you'll find a significant difference in ball movement, fast breaks, and distribution with Jamaal in and out of the lineup. Like I said, the ball moves better and the players want to run when Jamaal is not in the lineup. And defensively, I'm not sure how anyone can question that Jamaal is the sole cause of opponents' dribble penetration. We've seen in the past month that opponents are getting to the hoop, even without running a pick and roll, and that all starts with the point guard.



    I want to know which facet of the game that you think is better when Jamaal is in the lineup. Because for now, I don't see one.

  14. #39
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    In the six games since the trade was announced, JO is shooting .396 from the field. What's up with that? Are they forcing the ball into him because they don't know what else to do with it? Isn't Murphy's jump shot supposed to open up the floor for Jermaine? Prior to the trade he was shooting .460 now his average has fallen to .449.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    By the way, Rick has never benched Tinsley. Kenny Anderson was given the starting job in Rick's first year as coach and Kenny was benched in favor of Tinsley after a stretch of excellent play.
    I believe that JT was the starting PG the season before KA arrived, and (KA) was handed the starting position striaght away.
    Miek bringing JT in and JT singlehandedly bringing us almost back to a win from (if memory serves me) 28 down, was why he got "more" minutes after that and the starting pos back few games later.

    It is called "benching" if that happens to a starter.

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Okay, I'll try it objectively. I don't have a lot of time to sift through games, but if someone wants to add, please feel free. I picked the first quarter of the Miami game for comparison, since I remembered Tinsley coming out at the 6 minute mark (halfway through the quarter). Here are some stats for you:


    --------------------------------------------------------------
    With Tinsley in the lineup:

    Possessions: 12

    8: Possessions with 1 pass
    2: Possessions with 2 passes
    1: Possessions with 3 passes
    1: Possessions with 4 or more passes

    0 Fast Breaks


    With Tinsley out of the lineup:

    Possessions: 11

    3: Possessions with 1 pass
    2: Possessions with 2 passes
    2: Possessions with 3 passes
    4: Possessions with 4 or more passes

    3 Fast Breaks
    -------------------------------------------------------------




    So there you're looking at around 19 passes in 12 possessions with Jamaal in the lineup and 29 passes in 11 possessions with Jamaal out of the lineup. 0 fast breaks with Jamaal in the lineup and 3 with Jamaal out of the lineup. 6 of 11 of Jamaal's passes went to Jermaine, on which he shot twice. 3 went to Murphy. 2 total passes from Jamaal went to the wing players.





    Apparently I went for snacks at 7:34 in the 1st and 5:11 in the 2nd, because those were the only two passes that Jamaal threw to Mike Dunleavy in the entire first half.

    On the first substitutions for Jamaal in the first and second quarters, a total of three passes were thrown to Mike Dunleavy in the first 10 seconds by the point guard. And he was just as open and in great position to make a play in both situations.

    But Jamaal did throw it to a completely surrounded Jermaine O'Neal while Mike was wide open with an opportunity to drive or pass to a wide open Granger/Murphy, and twice the ball was deflected from Jermaine.

    Jamaal ended up passing to Mike Dunleavy a whopping total of 6 times for the entire Miami game. And for what it's worth, I've yet to see a single pass from Tinsley to MDJ or TM that has been mishandled.
    I sincerely suggest you watch that game again, there are at least 3 passes that "go through the hands" )TM twice, MD once "at least".

    Last night (Det) MD was the recipient of 3 passes in rapid succession in the beginning of the game, he went 0-3 despite being open.

    A PG not throwing the ball to "new" players is not strange, they may be out of position, the passing lane mightbe closed despite the player being "open" and so on, familiarity of "where they want the ball" is also very important, better to go "safe" then to "risk" another turnover.

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    able, my sample is very small, but I can guarantee that you could expand that sample into the past month and you'll find a significant difference in ball movement, fast breaks, and distribution with Jamaal in and out of the lineup. Like I said, the ball moves better and the players want to run when Jamaal is not in the lineup. And defensively, I'm not sure how anyone can question that Jamaal is the sole cause of opponents' dribble penetration. We've seen in the past month that opponents are getting to the hoop, even without running a pick and roll, and that all starts with the point guard.
    Guess that is why Billups had 3 outstanding games against us.


    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I want to know which facet of the game that you think is better when Jamaal is in the lineup. Because for now, I don't see one.
    Simple answer: every facet of the game is better.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    There are 30 teams in this leage, there are more teams with a worse PG then ones with a better one.

    There was a big poll on realgm about pg rankings in the NBA about a week ago and Tinsley ended up between 15 and 25 on most people's list, on average I'd say 18-19.

    Apparently, Tinman is seen as a worse than average starting pg by the broad public nowadays.

  17. #42
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigan central st. View Post
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    There was a big poll on realgm about pg rankings in the NBA about a week ago and Tinsley ended up between 15 and 25 on most people's list, on average I'd say 18-19.

    Apparently, Tinman is seen as a worse than average starting pg by the broad public nowadays.
    You are here refering to the same "broad public" that voted for the All Star starters right ?

    QED
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  18. #43
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    No, I'm not.

    Behind the apparent trolls you probably find the widest spectrum of interested NBA fans at realgm. The people that click the NBA page and send in their votes, possible on a daily basis, can probably be seen as a broad public in a wider sense than the average realgm poster who, correctly, would have prefered Nash and Dirk in the starting 5 of the allstar game as well as the last MVP going to Dirk or Bron and not Nash.

    I think its safe to say that a poll like that will give a fair impression of what the NBA fans think of the players in the league, and there is no reason to feel hurt because Tinman is seen as a slightly below average starting pg just because you are a huge fan. Your opinion of him doesn't change because of this, does it?

  19. #44

    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    I think something else that we badly need is a pure shooter, particularly a 3 point shooter.

    I think we have become a better shooting team with the trade, but some of the new guys are still streaky at best.

    If we get into half-court slog ball, and they collapse on JO, we have some good mid-range guys to help open it up, but I am not confident we have a consistent long-range threat.
    When you're playing against a stacked deck, compete even harder. Show the world how much you'll fight for the winners circle. If you do, someday the cellophane will crackle off a fresh pack, one that belongs to you, and the cards will be stacked in your favor.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigan central st. View Post
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    I think its safe to say that a poll like that will give a fair impression of what the NBA fans think of the players in the league, and there is no reason to feel hurt because Tinman is seen as a slightly below average starting pg just because you are a huge fan. Your opinion of him doesn't change because of this, does it?
    For the fact that polls and fair impressions are totally mutually exclusive, and the fact that realgm is mutually exclusive to both those words you assessment is way off.

    I have been called a fanboy, a hater, a eurohater, ad bushbasher, a democrat, a socialist, a jackson fan, an artest fan, a JO fan, a Miller fan.
    And now in your (unwanted) attempt at sarcasm I am called a "Huge Tinsley fan" who's feeling might be hurt by the "fair impression" of the outcome of a "poll" (notice the lack of words such as "scientific, statistical corrected") on "realgm".

    It is attitudes like this that formed the bases for the decision to "come down hard" on "demeaning posts"

    If you can not stay within bounds, please leave.
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  21. #46

    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    able,

    I tell ya', I have to agree with the DA fans right now. We are relying a bit too much on an older guy like DA, but we play at a much higher level with him in IMO. The stats you listed were really not that resoundingly in favor of Tinsley when you look at the minutes played. And actually, DA seems to be the higher percentage scorer.

    Tinsley is a guy who can play at a very high level. I've seen him score and pass with the best of them. But, he also has a pre-disposition to get in 1 on 1 battles (which can hurt the overall team) he has oft been injured, and his defensive abilities are below average. Somebody showed a type of plus/minus that showed the net effect when our team members were in. JO was number one b/c of his effect on the defense. Anyway, it would be interesting to see a similar scale with JT and DA over the last month.

    JT has the better offensive guard skills, when he wants to use them, and DA has the better defensive skills. I guess part of my comfort level with Darrell is that I know what he gives you he can give you every night. He has outstanding defense and a contagious enthusiasm that gets everybody going. JT is like a box of chocolates... you never now what you're gonna get.

    I'm a sucker for the hustle guys and DA is very reminiscent of Heywood Workman.
    “Seventy percent of me talking on the court is personally for me to get me
    motivated and going. Thirty percent is to see if I can get into the opponent’s head.”
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  22. #47

    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    There are 30 teams in this leage, there are more teams with a worse PG then ones with a better one.

    I’ll name 31 NBA PGs who are better:

    starting PGs who are better than Tins in no particular order:
    G Arenas
    D Williams
    TJ Ford
    Mike Bibby
    Tony Parker
    Steve Nash
    Andre Miller
    Jameer Nelson
    Chris Paul
    Stephon Marbury
    Jason Kidd
    Mo Williams
    Mike James
    Jason Williams
    Shaun Livingston
    Baron Davis
    Chauncey Billups
    Allen Iverson
    Devin Harris
    Raymond Felton
    Delonte West
    Kirk Hinrich

    Backup PGs who are ALSO better than Tins
    Brevin Knight
    Chris Duhon
    Steve Blake
    Sam Cassell
    Jordan Farmar
    Damon Stoudamire
    Marcus Williams
    Bobby Jackson
    Jose Calderon


    Leaving this:

    Starting PGs that Tins is better than:
    Eric Snow
    Ty Lue (though sometimes Joe Johnson plays PG I think)

    starting PGs about the same level, a matter of taste:
    Luke Ridnour
    Jarrett Jack*
    Chucky Atkins
    Rafer Alston*
    Smush Parker*

    * personally I'd prefer Jack, Alston, or Parker to Tins, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt/ homer advantage and limit the list to 31 instead of 34 PGS better than JT




    ---
    Now I’m sure that you can quibble on some on the list, but for your statement to be correct, show me the 16 that should be removed from my list.

    I admit that there is no statistical evidence I'm providing, just a "smell test"

  23. #48
    Gotta Play Big BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    I’ll name 31 NBA PGs who are better:

    starting PGs who are better than Tins in no particular order:
    G Arenas
    D Williams
    TJ Ford
    Mike Bibby
    Tony Parker
    Steve Nash
    Andre Miller
    Jameer Nelson
    Chris Paul
    Stephon Marbury
    Jason Kidd
    Mo Williams
    Mike James
    Jason Williams
    Shaun Livingston
    Baron Davis
    Chauncey Billups
    Allen Iverson
    Devin Harris
    Raymond Felton
    Delonte West
    Kirk Hinrich

    Backup PGs who are ALSO better than Tins
    Brevin Knight
    Chris Duhon
    Steve Blake
    Sam Cassell
    Jordan Farmar
    Damon Stoudamire
    Marcus Williams
    Bobby Jackson
    Jose Calderon


    Leaving this:

    Starting PGs that Tins is better than:
    Ty Lue
    Eric Snow

    starting PGs about the same level, a matter of taste:
    Luke Ridnour
    Jarrett Jack
    Chucky Atkins
    Rafer Alston
    Smush Parker


    Now I’m sure that you can quibble on some, but for your statement to be correct, show me the 16 that should be removed from my list
    There is more truth to this post than I care to even think about.

    But I would say Tinsley is better than a few of those guys you list, but I would put him around #25-#30 in the league. Now, it cannot be reasonably questioned that Tinsley is as good as any of these 16 guys:

    G Arenas
    D Williams
    Mike Bibby
    Tony Parker
    Steve Nash
    Andre Miller
    Chris Paul
    Jason Kidd
    Mo Williams
    Shaun Livingston
    Baron Davis
    Chauncey Billups
    Allen Iverson
    Devin Harris
    Kirk Hinrich
    Monta Ellis (He is not really a SG IMO)

    With that said, it's pretty clear he is a below average starting PG.

    If we could just pick from this list with our eyes closed, we would be way ahead!

  24. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    I might've argued that it's subjectively obvious the ball doesn't move because of JO and Rick, not Jamaal, but I've already reached my basketball post quota for the month.......

    It seems to me that as much as Rick might slow down the pace of the game for some odd reason when DA is the pg the game speeds up. Hasn't DA gotten the message from Rick to play more slowly or does Darrell not pay attention?

    It just seems to me that the ball doesn't move because JT holds the ball too long and others don't.

  25. #50
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    Default Re: Post Trade Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Monta Ellis (He is not really a SG IMO)
    Monta Ellis is not a PG, at all.

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