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Thread: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    I knew you all would love Dun once you seen him play. He is very much like Derrick McKey was, in the sense that you cant really appreciate everything he does by looking at box scores. You have to see him play to fully grasp all the little things he does to make the team better. He understands how the game is supposed to be played.

    The only thing that has surprised me about him thus far is that he is more athletic than I was lead to believe.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    They say Utah and Indiana are the most racist states
    Don't tell Tony Dungy or the fans that love him. Don't tell that grandma that was Ron's neighbor and apparently loved the guy.

    It's out there, but it's not strong in the core fanbase within the city IMO.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    People in Romania have opinions about racism in Indiana?

    How wild.
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  4. #29
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    I would say that being at least a competent one-on-one defender is a pre-requiste to being a good team defender,
    I strongly disagree and here's why.

    One on one is just about you and the guy in front of you. If you bite the upfake, get beat off the first step, fall off on a jab step to free a guy for the step-back shot, gamble for steals, etc then you are a bad one on one defender.

    But you can still know this and know the defensive system created specifically to help alleviate these problems by complementing players. So you can overplay a guy so when he beats you he must go toward the spot you want him to go, where he will be picked up by a shot blocker, or where he must make a longer pass or take a tougher shot.

    He can get by you just as quickly as ever, but by playing him with the other 9 players in mind you lesson the impact of your one on one mismatch. A smart but slow player takes advantage of the team situations in order to better defend his man than if it was just he and the opponent alone on the court.

    On top of this is of course the ability close spaces, come with help defense and other team defense actions away from the ball. Blocking out a bigger guy so your own big can get the rebound, cutting off the dump off passing lane so your big can go for the shot block, etc. You don't have to be fast to do those things, just aware that they need to be done on the fly.


    And a great one on one defender can be a terrible team defender. You can pick pockets, move your feet in front of a guy and generally be a real nuiscence to him, but totally fail to read plays away from your man. You don't help on switches well, you don't double when it's called for, you don't force teams to space better by closing gaps, you don't deny passing lanes, and so on.

    The man in front of you will suffer but meanwhile you let the rest of your team drown. It's actually typical of selfish players who have a ton of talent and are just worried about looking good for themselves, despite the idea that all defense is about a team attitude. It's not. Flashy players like to show off HIGHLIGHT defense, big blocks and steals, without making the team game more difficult for the opponent. "Wasn't my guy scoring"

    One-on-one defense has more to do with physical gifts, quickness and so forth.
    I don't fully agree with this either. It's the instinctive view, but the fact is that a lot of good one on one defenders learn smart methods of defending players and taking away what they want to do, with or without some great amount of talent. Thus you have players that get by on talent vs players that don't.

    Pulling the chair in the post - classic SMART one on one defense.

    And a player like AI plays good team defense almost entirely off his talent rather than smarts. He has the speed to cheat the lanes or to sneak in from the backside of the post to steal the entry pass, etc.


    The traditional view is that smarts = team and talent = one on one, but they are both skills that are built on talent + smarts in some ratio that varies from player to player.

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    That is probably the best sign, I agree. The problem has been more about buying in to the system than about it working, and I think some players bailed on it when other issues caused things to not work well (suspensions, injuries, chemistry). The bad situation created a negative association with everything that was going on with the team, at least that's my guess at it.

    Any coherent system will be more effective than none at all, even if it's more fun for the players to play that way (ie, Al's attitude).

    That is an excellent explanation for what more than likely did occur, and I hadn't really thought of it in those terms.

  6. #31
    Member Tony Valente's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    People in Romania have opinions about racism in Indiana? How wild.
    That's exactly what that guy told me: "How could me, a guy from Bucharest, speak in the name of people in Indiana?" Hehe.
    I had no intention to offend any of you, as I feel on this forum like home. Just wanted to point out opinions of some European "NBA forum experts".

  7. #32

    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I strongly disagree and here's why.

    One on one is just about you and the guy in front of you. If you bite the upfake, get beat off the first step, fall off on a jab step to free a guy for the step-back shot, gamble for steals, etc then you are a bad one on one defender.

    But you can still know this and know the defensive system created specifically to help alleviate these problems by complementing players. So you can overplay a guy so when he beats you he must go toward the spot you want him to go, where he will be picked up by a shot blocker, or where he must make a longer pass or take a tougher shot.

    He can get by you just as quickly as ever, but by playing him with the other 9 players in mind you lesson the impact of your one on one mismatch. A smart but slow player takes advantage of the team situations in order to better defend his man than if it was just he and the opponent alone on the court.

    On top of this is of course the ability close spaces, come with help defense and other team defense actions away from the ball. Blocking out a bigger guy so your own big can get the rebound, cutting off the dump off passing lane so your big can go for the shot block, etc. You don't have to be fast to do those things, just aware that they need to be done on the fly.


    And a great one on one defender can be a terrible team defender. You can pick pockets, move your feet in front of a guy and generally be a real nuiscence to him, but totally fail to read plays away from your man. You don't help on switches well, you don't double when it's called for, you don't force teams to space better by closing gaps, you don't deny passing lanes, and so on.

    The man in front of you will suffer but meanwhile you let the rest of your team drown. It's actually typical of selfish players who have a ton of talent and are just worried about looking good for themselves, despite the idea that all defense is about a team attitude. It's not. Flashy players like to show off HIGHLIGHT defense, big blocks and steals, without making the team game more difficult for the opponent. "Wasn't my guy scoring"

    I agree that smarts can lessen the blow of sub-par one-on-one defense. But no amount of smarts can compensate for terrible defense. If a guy can blow by you without altering his path at all you can't funnel him anywhere, and if you have to sprint to close out a guy a quick pump fake/step/pop move will kill you without any chance to help out.

    This is basically my point (and you touched on it in the second half of your post): You can be a great one-on-one defender while being a terrible team defender, but you can't be a great team defender while being a terrible one-on-one defender. A player's one-on-one defense is completely unbound from his team defense, but his team defense is somewhat bound by his one-on-one defense.

  8. #33
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Time for a quick lesson on Basketball 101 ( only cuz I don't know )

    Can someone explain to me the difference between being a good "one on one" defender and someone that can play good team defense?

    Is it possible to be a good "team defender" but not a good "one on one" defender?

    Do you think that Dunleavy has the Basketball IQ and smarts to be one?

    To be a good team defender...does it require as much Basketball IQ as it does actual physical skills?
    Larry Bird was the first name that popped to mind when I read this. He obviously was by no means a great defender. He had zero foot speed and next to no lateral movement when he was trying to stop someone from scoring. Jordan's 63 in the Playoff game was hilarious on the few times when Bird tried to stay in front of the guy (after Ainge and DJ had both failed miserably). Dominique used to eat Larry's lunch every time they played too.

    Basically, Larry was just not athletic or quick enough to contain anyone.

    But Legend was a guy who's mental comprehension of the game of basketball was so far beyond 99.9% of other players that he could still be a well above average team defender a lot of the time. Don't get me wrong, he was exploited all the time and cost the Cs a ton of points (perhaps even Playoff games), but I imagine that most of his teamates wanted him out on the floor when things mattered---on both ends. And he did make three All Defense teams (all 2nd Team). For further proof, just ask Isiah.

    Reggie, similarly, became a much better defender in his later years. Whether it was just a better understanding of the game, learning "tricks of the trade" or just knowing what the top players in the League were going to do, he got A LOT better from his miserable beginnings without increasing his lateral movement or ability to keep dribblers in front of him with quickness.

    And Jason Kidd is still a good TEAM defender. He can't stay in front of anyone anymore, but still remains in the Top 10 in steals with smarts, and generally helped his team be one of the better statistical defensive squads in the League last year despite starting Vince Carter and no shot blockers.

    For guys whose good one-on-one defense doesn't translate to helping the TEAM, watch guys like Marcus Banks, Ruben Patterson, Andre Igoudala or Jason Richardson. These are guys that genearlly have no trouble staying in front of their man, but just don't understand what they should be doing aside from that.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Flava, I still disagree.
    If a guy can blow by you without altering his path at all you can't funnel him anywhere, and if you have to sprint to close out a guy a quick pump fake/step/pop move will kill you without any chance to help out.
    A smart player doesn't play himself into situations where he will need to rely on his weaker ability. You overplay a guys strong side so much that he has to "blow by" the other way...right to the help defense, and meanwhile you've dropped down to play the dump pass lane for the steal. You were slower but still won the team defensive battle.

    And you only need to sprint out on a close out if you've misplayed in the first place. A good team defender sees this flow and cheats ahead of rotations and stuff, specifically so he can avoid having to rely on speed or hops. A smart and athletic defender will get ahead and then get the steal, while a weak one on one guy simply ensures that he's never hurting the team by being too far out of the play but is incapable of actually making that same steal. It's still great team defense because it's disrupting the offensive flow.

    Reggie, similarly, became a much better defender in his later years. Whether it was just a better understanding of the game, learning "tricks of the trade" or just knowing what the top players in the League were going to do, he got A LOT better from his miserable beginnings without increasing his lateral movement or ability to keep dribblers in front of him with quickness.

    And Jason Kidd is still a good TEAM defender. He can't stay in front of anyone anymore, but still remains in the Top 10 in steals with smarts, and generally helped his team be one of the better statistical defensive squads in the League last year despite starting Vince Carter and no shot blockers.
    2 great examples. Kidd's range between one on one defense and team defense is as wide as any player in the NBA I think.

  10. #35
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    BTW, yes, Dunleavy is very athletic. He attacks the basket similar to Jack when he's on track and while he's not as crafty on the baseline he does create similar situations, and then he's got a wider array of passes he can make.

    Unfortunately his shooting is even more on par with Jackson so far. Pretty awful.


    Murphy is moving better than I thought he would be at this point. He's very fundamentally sound, just like Dunleavy. Both rely on fundamentals a lot more than Al or Jack did/do.

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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Thanks for all of your explanations....I really appreciate the responses.

    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  12. #37
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    I love Mike Dunleavy jr., not a great scorer but plays the same all the time

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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    I like him a lot as well. It's really refreshing to have a SG with a good head on his shoulders (on the court) who isn't worthless when he isn't hitting shots, and doesn't force bad shots.

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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Another note on Dunleavy. For those thinking he was taken too high in the draft.......... look at the quality of the players taken after him.

    1. Yao Ming
    2. Jay Williams
    3. Mike Dunleavy
    4. Drew Gooden
    5. Nikoloz Tskitishvili
    6. Dajuan Wagner
    7. Nene Hilario
    8. Chris Wilcox
    9. Amare Stoudemire
    10. Caron Butler
    11. Jared Jeffries
    12. Melvin Ely
    13. Marcus Haislip
    14. Fred Jones
    15. Bostjan Nachbar
    16. Jiri Welsch
    17. Juan Dixon
    18. Curtis Borchardt
    19. Ryan Humphrey
    20. Kareem Rush
    21. Qyntel Woods
    22. Casey Jacobsen
    23. Tayshaun Prince
    24. Nenad Krstic
    25. Frank Williams
    26. John Salmons
    27. Chris Jefferies
    28. Dan Dickau

    Nearly half that draft class is out of the league now. I could see maybe 3 or 4 guys that should have been taken ahead of him but he still should have been a mid lottery pick.

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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    I agree.....Dunleavy probably ranks as a early teens draft pick when compared to the rest of the list.

    What really stands out in your list is that of the 28......there are two 1st tier players ( Yao and Amare )....arguably 4 or 5 2nd tier players ( solid starters ) ....and maybe another 4 or 5 3rd tier players ( decent starters / solid roleplayers / backup players ).
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I agree.....Dunleavy probably ranks as a early teens draft pick when compared to the rest of the list.
    What?????

    I see 4 players I'd pick for sure in Yao, Stoudemire, Prince and Butler... and maybe Gooden, Krstic and Nene IF you needed a big guy... Those are the only guys I'd see you'd even possibly think taking over him... so I think he could have been taken from 3-7th out of those players... so how on earth do you get early teens??? who else would you pick before him???
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Quote Originally Posted by tadscout View Post
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    What?????

    I see 4 players I'd pick for sure in Yao, Stoudemire, Prince and Butler... and maybe Gooden, Krstic and Nene IF you needed a big guy... Those are the only guys I'd see you'd even possibly think taking over him... so I think he could have been taken from 3-7th out of those players... so how on earth do you get early teens??? who else would you pick before him???
    I'm not him but...

    Jared Jeffries, Juan Dixon, Jay Will (injusy aside obviously) and Chris Wilcox.
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Juan Dixon and Chris Jeffries ... are you kidding?

    There's no way I would take those two over MDJ.

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  19. #44

    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Juan Dixon has no business on that list. I'd say Jeffries is a wash, and Wilcox seems like he'll be a better player someday, but it's been 5 years, and I'm still waiting

    The guys I'd take over Dun right now are: Yao, Amare, Drew Gooden, Nene if not for his contract, Butler, Prince, and Krstic. That puts him as 8th on my list, you could go as low as 9th if you include Wilcox. That's not bad being drafted 3rd and valued 9th 5 years later. Of course, a lot of bad things happened for that to take place, including a career-ending motorcycle accident and a case of Colonitis. Had those two things not happened, I think they'd both be higher than Dun.

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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    I love watching DunDun play (so far). His hustle and energy reminds me of a kid named Don Buse who played for the Pacers years ago. DunDun will NEVER be the defensive player Buse was...but he seems to be just as heady and high energy as BooBoo.
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  21. #46

    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    If that draft were held today:

    stars:
    1. Yao Ming
    2. Amare Stoudemire

    big contrbutors:
    3. Tayshaun Prince
    4. Caron Butler
    5. Nenad Krstic
    6. Drew Gooden

    valuable players:
    7. Nene Hilario (based upon potential)
    8. Chris Wilcox (based upon potential)
    9. Mike Dunleavy

    then Jeffries, Ely, Dixon

  22. #47
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    Another note on Dunleavy. For those thinking he was taken too high in the draft.......... look at the quality of the players taken after him.

    1. Yao Ming
    2. Jay Williams
    3. Mike Dunleavy
    4. Drew Gooden
    5. Nikoloz Tskitishvili
    6. Dajuan Wagner
    7. Nene Hilario
    8. Chris Wilcox
    9. Amare Stoudemire
    10. Caron Butler
    11. Jared Jeffries
    12. Melvin Ely
    13. Marcus Haislip
    14. Fred Jones
    15. Bostjan Nachbar
    16. Jiri Welsch
    17. Juan Dixon
    18. Curtis Borchardt
    19. Ryan Humphrey
    20. Kareem Rush
    21. Qyntel Woods
    22. Casey Jacobsen
    23. Tayshaun Prince
    24. Nenad Krstic
    25. Frank Williams
    26. John Salmons
    27. Chris Jefferies
    28. Dan Dickau

    Nearly half that draft class is out of the league now. I could see maybe 3 or 4 guys that should have been taken ahead of him but he still should have been a mid lottery pick.


    Great point.

    Obviously Amare should have gone number 2 and Caron Butler should have gone ahead of Dunleavy, And probably Prince - other than those three Dunleavy is the 6th best player in that draft at worst he's 7th best player.

    Terrible draft.

    Edit: oops I overlooked Krstic.

    As far as Gooden. He's pretty good now, but he's had a very difficult time getting to this point in his career. traded 3 times - not sure he's better than Dunleavy, but you could make that argument

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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Not to mention the guy drafted a spot ahead of him at #2 completely wasted his career with one big stupid mistake.

    There's only 4 players who've had significantly better careers thus far...

    Yao , Amare, Caron, and Tayshaun. Krstic is on his way but I wouldn't say his career has been better thus far. Other than that, there's a trio of so-so big men in Gooden, Nene, and Wilcox and the rest pretty much suck.

  24. #49
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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    I'm surprised people actually like Dunleavy, I went to the game last night and my dad and I think he is the worst thing about the trade(I love Murphy though) and our whole section was screaming at Dunleavy b/c he can't play D and doesn't put any hustle or effort into anything and kept leaving Kapono wide open. Just mine and most of section 19's 2 cents

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    Default Re: Mike Dunleavy Jr.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyFan032589 View Post
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    I'm surprised people actually like Dunleavy, I went to the game last night and my dad and I think he is the worst thing about the trade(I love Murphy though) and our whole section was screaming at Dunleavy b/c he can't play D and doesn't put any hustle or effort into anything and kept leaving Kapono wide open. Just mine and most of section 19's 2 cents
    worst thing on the trade.. come on man, i don't know if this is the first time you've seen him play after the trade as a pacers. Today was just one of his awful shooting nights, only hit one three, and missed a lot of jumpers, but the reason he was on the floor a lot was because he was doing a lot, he wasn't forcing shots, still setting screens, still giving nice passes.

    on the D, it's kinda hard to guard Kapono when Mourning and Walker are the screeners, i'm not saying he is unguardable but you have to put the fact that he is getting screened and Kapono is just automatic last night, other than that, i think he does a great job of moving his feet and helping out on the D.

    He had an awful game and still finished with 9pts, 5 rebounds, 3 assists and a steal.

    just a bad shooting night, 1 for 7 atleast he wasn't forcing shots, only shots he is taking is on the flow of the game.

    This is just kind of an observation but when Tinsley is on the game, I don't think Dunleavy gets the ball a lot, because Tinsley often drives and goes to the hoop and doesn't pass out, while when D.A is there, the ball moves better.

    Im not saying Tinsley is a bad player but I think he should be passing more

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