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Thread: Golden State Warriors Thread

  1. #201
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    You'll have to help me out then, because I think I remember Jack hitting one (maybe two) game-winning shots for us this year. However, I also remember far more ****-poor 4th quarter performances leading to losses.
    Jackson vs Denver. The 4th starts with GS up by 12 but AI quickly cuts it to 10 with a layup. 4 minutes later the lead is 20 and the game is over. How?

    Jackson - 3pt
    Jackson - 3pt miss
    Jackson - 2pt jumper
    Jackson - defensive reb
    Jackson - 2 FTs made (drove and drew the foul)
    Jackson - 3pt

    Ellis had the only other bucket in the 12-2 run by GS. Jack was 2-3 from 3 in that stretch. DEN didn't reach that 93 point level (where GS was at then) till 35 seconds left in the game, so almost literally the game was over after Jackson's scoring outburst.



    Vs Detroit at halftime it was already a 6 point game, but within 5.5 minutes that lead was 17 and the game was effectively over (I believe it never got closer than 15 after that point). During that 5.5 minute stretch you had:

    Al - layup
    Jack - bad pass
    Jack - taking a Rip charge
    Jack - O-reb, tip in
    Jack - layup
    Al - steal
    Jack - 3pt (Al assist)
    Al - 3pt (Baron assist)
    Al - 3pt (Jack assist)

    So in that 17-6 run to open the half up and break the game open Al and Jack combined for 2 of the 3 assists, 15 of the points (Al 8, Jack 7), took away 2 DET possessions and while Jack had the TO he also created a bonus possession with the O-REB (which he then scored).


    Two wins by 14+ points vs playoff teams and at the center of the moment when the game is broken open for good you have Jackson, with Al being a huge part of the DET 3rd as well as clutch with what should have been the final FTs vs WSH.


    I know it's not the same as a final shot to win, but honestly I'd rather have a guy that make the game a clear win 8-10 minutes before it's over instead. Yes it's true that Jack has bad nights too and that Al had turned into the invisible man for the Pacers on many nights.

    But I'll bet Warriors fans aren't complaining about the recent results from either of them right now.

  2. #202
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    Seth, to be fair, the Pistons were without Sheed, and the Pacers have been without Quis. That makes a difference, though I'm not sure how much of one.

    I don't think anyone here pre or post-trade doubted that Al and Jack are more talented than Murph and Dun. However, like with Ron Artest, that talent sometimes comes with a price that is not worth paying. Al and Jack are horribly inconsistent, and Jack in particular is a troublemaker. Word is that Al was also behind a lot of the locker room chemistry issues here.


    Jack also went 44% from 3 (4-9) which put his adjusted FG% for the night over 50% despite being 6-15.
    C'mon now, Seth. Let's not resort to misrepresenting numbers here. Jack shot 40%, not 50%+. 40% is still pretty good, but I'm sure he'll have more than his fair share of 30-35% shooting game to negate that.

    And oh yeah, Saras didn't see the court in either the DET or DEN game. Still waiting for Euro-wonder to put it in our faces. Right now it looks a lot like Rick HELPED Saras rather than holding him back, at least compared to the chances that Nellie is giving him (barring injury).
    If this was a shot to the Carlisle detractors, then explain why Al and Jack are apparently playing better now without Rick?

    Bear in mind that I've been slightly anti-trade since I heard about it, but there is a lot of selective arguing in your post.

    And I still don't miss Al or Jack. I just wish (like I have since the trade first went down), that we had gotten better value for them.

  3. #203
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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Jackson vs Denver. The 4th starts with GS up by 12 but AI quickly cuts it to 10 with a layup. 4 minutes later the lead is 20 and the game is over. How?

    Jackson - 3pt
    Jackson - 3pt miss
    Jackson - 2pt jumper
    Jackson - defensive reb
    Jackson - 2 FTs made (drove and drew the foul)
    Jackson - 3pt

    Ellis had the only other bucket in the 12-2 run by GS. Jack was 2-3 from 3 in that stretch. DEN didn't reach that 93 point level (where GS was at then) till 35 seconds left in the game, so almost literally the game was over after Jackson's scoring outburst.



    Vs Detroit at halftime it was already a 6 point game, but within 5.5 minutes that lead was 17 and the game was effectively over (I believe it never got closer than 15 after that point). During that 5.5 minute stretch you had:

    Al - layup
    Jack - bad pass
    Jack - taking a Rip charge
    Jack - O-reb, tip in
    Jack - layup
    Al - steal
    Jack - 3pt (Al assist)
    Al - 3pt (Baron assist)
    Al - 3pt (Jack assist)

    So in that 17-6 run to open the half up and break the game open Al and Jack combined for 2 of the 3 assists, 15 of the points (Al 8, Jack 7), took away 2 DET possessions and while Jack had the TO he also created a bonus possession with the O-REB (which he then scored).


    Two wins by 14+ points vs playoff teams and at the center of the moment when the game is broken open for good you have Jackson, with Al being a huge part of the DET 3rd as well as clutch with what should have been the final FTs vs WSH.


    I know it's not the same as a final shot to win, but honestly I'd rather have a guy that make the game a clear win 8-10 minutes before it's over instead. Yes it's true that Jack has bad nights too and that Al had turned into the invisible man for the Pacers on many nights.

    But I'll bet Warriors fans aren't complaining about the recent results from either of them right now.
    So, then, Al and Jack helped us win two of the 38 games they played this year? I must be missing your point.

    Like I said, nobody is doubting Al's and Jack's talent. But you be have severe selective amnesia if you don't think they hurt at least as much as they helped on the court, and were both apparently troublemakers off the court.

    Hell, if that's how you feel, maybe you think we should have kept Ron-Ron? After all, he's better than Al and Jack combined.

  4. #204
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    I really am beginning to hope that we aim for that draft pick.
    Did you see the other thread where we were discussing the odds of getting a good player based on pick? I forget which one of the rant threads it is in, but I posted links to a couple of efforts to analyze your chances of getting a good player based on what pick you have.

    I don't think that's the solution because it's just too iffy, but I guess I should save that discussion for the thread I'm thinking of.


    I'm glad to see you take my thoughts the way you did. It comes off as some vendetta online or some personal war by me, but I don't mean it like that. I'm just frustrated by the emotions fans put into a practical decision, as well as TPTB perhaps caving to that emotion.

    Things weren't going great, I won't argue that. But clearly they could get worse, and have.

    There are TONS of players I would trade Jackson for, I was never in the keep him no matter what camp, he's my fave. I just didn't hate him and I wouldn't move him for a bucket of balls. Same with Al, and early on it even looked like Murph was fitting his role better than Al had been.

    But now you can see that you could do worse than Al's defense or Al's scoring.


    Hell, can I please get Powell back for Ike. I'm not sold on that portion even after seeing all of his game. Early on his ability to get into the post sold me even though I didn't have a problem with Josh's game at all. But now I think Josh looks like the smarter post player.


    You know where I will cast blame on Jackson? For pulling that stupid gun out and creating all this mess. If he had just got on his cell and called the cops, maybe told his boys to get in the car and get out of there, then you wouldn't have a court case and nearly the backlash.

    Jack could take the stance of innoncent guy attacked who tried to do the right thing instead of a guy who was willing to mix it up a bit if he felt challenged (think Marty in Back to the Future ).

    If he does the right thing then maybe there is no trade and maybe we see some better basketball right now and are able to enjoy the team. So he doesn't get a free pass from me just because I don't demonize him.

  5. #205
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    Btw, a lot of Golden State fans have been calling for Al to be traded for a while now.

  6. #206
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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    C'mon now, Seth. Let's not resort to misrepresenting numbers here. Jack shot 40%, not 50%+. 40% is still pretty good, but I'm sure he'll have more than his fair share of 30-35% shooting game to negate that.
    Adj FG% isn't a misrepresentation. It's what says that Reggie was a great shooter rather than just average (47% not adjusting for 3's, doesn't blow people away).

    Jack was 6-15, but 4 of 9 from 3. That is equal to 16 points on 15 shots, the same as if he had shot 53% from 2. Do you not understand what adjusted FG% means? Of course it counts. It means you scored 53% of the total possible points you could have had if you shot only 2 pt FGs.

    40% from 2 = 12 points, not 16. If JO goes 6-15 it's not the same as if REGGIE MILLER (since you hate Jack) goes 6-15 but 4-9 from 3.

    And 53% ADJ on a regular basis (obviously something Jack doesn't do) would put you in the top 30 next to guys like Gasol and Tony Parker, so it's better than okay. So he had a good night, not just average. Not great, but good.



    This is NOT the same as Points Per Shot which includes FTMs too, meant to account for a players ability to draw FTAs as well as his shooting.

  7. #207
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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    Hell, if that's how you feel, maybe you think we should have kept Ron-Ron? After all, he's better than Al and Jack combined.
    If he hadn't gone to the press and demanded a trade because he wanted more touches. That's when he lost me. Up to that point I was firmly behind Ron and his game, inconsistant as his offense could be at times. He forced the action and drew FTAs, he helped make something out of broken plays.


    Al and Jack both could be disruptive. Al for how he handled his role in the offense, Jack for how he handled his frustration, especially when dealing with Rick. Jack could flake out in games and make clearly dumb plays, but most of the time he brought solid, functional play to his role.

    My complaint always was that people treated Jack's negatives as equal to his positives, and that wasn't true. The team would have been much worse if that were the case.

    There was room to improve the SG position, just as you could improve the PG spot now. But there was also a lot of room to make it worse. That's why I was against a RASH decision.

    And if Jack gets convicted the Pacers could have dropped his contract and cleared some more space toward getting under the cap. Instead they just discarded all the headway they had made in that area (which still wasn't sub-cap, but was getting closer) AND didn't improve anything while doing that.

    RAY ALLEN for Al and Jack, that would have helped more. Tins and Jack for Andre Miller, that would have helped more.

    Far better options were out there than this one. To me this is a deal that TPTB look at and say "nah, we might as well limp along as is than do that". More so considering that this wasn't the trade deadline yet. Double that considering that teams' outlooks on trades change once they see where they are drafting.


    Why make a MID-SEASON deal if it doesn't make you better this season? Otherwise deal in the summer instead. No need to rush to do something you won't see results on for a year. You know the Jack trial doesn't go until after the trade deadline at least, so maybe work the market for something better than what they SETTLED for.

    They were MORE PATIENT WITH RON, and the dude was sitting out after acting up for the umpteenth time. They passed on mediocre offers, waited and waited and waited.

    Heck, they took more time GETTING AL than they did dumping him. His trade time (from "announcement" on WTHR to actually joining the team) almost lasted longer than his regular season playing time.

    So it was patience, patience and then suddenly "HURRY UP, I JUST HEARD DUNLEAVY IS ON THE MARKET!!! IT'S LIKE FREE ICE CREAM! RUN!" Seems foolish to me.

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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    So clearly Al and Jack were great for us and idiot Walsh and his little buddy Bird just made a dumb trade, right?

  9. #209
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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    RAY ALLEN for Al and Jack, that would have helped more. Tins and Jack for Andre Miller, that would have helped more.
    Can you prove that either of those offers was on the table? Because I find it hard to believe we would pass on either of those.

    Jack's trade value was virtually nil. GS only took him because we agreed to take both of their bad contracts. They only really wanted Al.

    We did the trade to get Ike Diogu and get rid of Al and Jack, both of whom were supposedly locker room cancers. Simple as that. Not that I agree with it (I don't), but that's why the trade went down.

    Al and Jack suck. Murph and Dun just suck more.

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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    The Ws have won 3 straight since they have had a healthy lineup of Baron/JRich/SJax/Harrington/Biedrins/Monta/Barnes/Pietrus.

    Its amazing what a healthy lineup can do.
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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    The Pacers weren't that good with Al and Jackson. I realize that compared to now that seems like a great team but it was still a first round loss team. I don't mind trading average players to try something different and in reality Jackson had to go his relationship to the fans was toxic.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    I agree with the previous post but I can't stand knowing we took back 2 bad salaries in Murphy and Dundun. We could've gotten a more decent trade than this. Philly wouldn't take JAX, Tins, AL, Runi for AI??? I just hope we find a way to move these two soft players for draft picks or something. I'd rather watch us rebuild than cheer for this bunch.

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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by denyfizle View Post
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    I agree with the previous post but I can't stand knowing we took back 2 bad salaries in Murphy and Dundun. We could've gotten a more decent trade than this. Philly wouldn't take JAX, Tins, AL, Runi for AI??? I just hope we find a way to move these two soft players for draft picks or something. I'd rather watch us rebuild than cheer for this bunch.
    Yes....I would have taken Dre Miller, Expiring Contracts and the additional 2007 1st round Draft picks over SJax, Harrington, Tinsley and Sarunas for Iverson.

    For the Sixers....they wanted to rebuild and they wouldn't have wanted what we could have offered. Now the Sixers are on the right path to rebuilding the team. When you look at what the Sixers are now....adding those headaches would have ruined it.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    I always find it "interesting" when some of you suggest - we could have made a better deal for Al and Jax. Really? Prior to the trade I didn't think there was a team in the NBA who would have taken Jax off our hands - at any price. No team was going to trade us draft picks and expiring contracts for him. No team was going to trade any of their players that they really wanted to keep.

    So what did the Pacers have to do to get rid of Jax. They had to include Harrington, they had to agree to take a terrible contract (Murphy) another very questionable contract (Dunleavy). I think the Pacers fought to have Ike included (a player who 12 months ago was untouchable). As I posted about 20 minutes after the trade became known, the key player in the whole trade will be Ike Diogu. 3 or 4 years from now when judgment is rendered on this trade - it will be judged based upon how Ike has developed.

    What I just typed in this post was the prevailing wisdom for a few weeks after the trade among Pacers fans, but lately there has been quite a bit of - "we could have gotten more" type posts - that and "wow why did the Pacers think Dun and Murphy were any good to begin with". Believe me they never thought they were that good. Believe me, the TPTB knew the contracts were bad. Trust me, Bird and Walsh aren't surprised by Murph's or Dun's play at all. But they had to get rid of Jackson - and this was the only way to do that.

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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    But they had to get rid of Jackson - and this was the only way to do that.
    So after all of the time the Pacers took last year trying to trade Artest for someone they actually wanted, and still got burned, they turned around and picked up two huge contracts, gave up their summer saver, Harrington. All in an effort to get rid of Jax and pick up an undersized power forward.

    If that is true we have some of the worst basketball minds in the league.

    I do believe they thought Dunleavy and Murphy were shooters, just like Bird said. Personally I don't think the trade was so much about Jax than about Al not complementing JO. Al was thought to be a competent rebounder, but he still is hovering around six a game. Murphy averaged a double double, perfect fit. I feel Dunleavy and Jax were simply throw- ins. Dunleavy hated in S.F, Jax hated in Indy,swap the two, besides Dunleavy is a better shooter! I'm not seeing much from Ike, and just like I said with Sarunas, being a Euro point, where are all the other 6-8 power forwards out there????

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Jax just got thrown out of the game. He threw the ball in the direction of the ref.

    I was watching the game - the Blazers broadcast and one of the announcers said and I quote, "that is the Indiana Pacers coming out of him"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I was watching the game - the Blazers broadcast and one of the announcers said and I quote, "that is the Indiana Pacers coming out of him"


    If ever there was anything to symbolize why I'm glad he and Artest are gone.....

    I don't care if the GS players are overpaid and mediocre for the next decade, if we'd had them the past 4 years we'd be better off in ways we can only imagine off the court. I know that still isn't fun, but damn it, I hate our image. Hate it.

  18. #218

    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    Dallas' streak coming to an end tonight. Warriors up 29 after 3. When completely healthy and at home, the Warriors are a really good team.

  19. #219
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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    Golden State is spanking Dallas worse than Dallas spanked LA last night.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by bnd45 View Post
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    Dallas' streak coming to an end tonight. Warriors up 29 after 3. When completely healthy and at home, the Warriors are a really good team.
    I wouldn't read too much into the game last night. "it was just one of those games" But yes the Warriors do have some talent. Their starting backcourt is probably the most talented in the NBA and then when you have Ellis coming off the bench - that is perhaps the most talented trio as a group in the NBA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I wouldn't read too much into the game last night. "it was just one of those games" But yes the Warriors do have some talent. Their starting backcourt is probably the most talented in the NBA and then when you have Ellis coming off the bench - that is perhaps the most talented trio as a group in the NBA.
    UB, I watch most of their games and it's amazing how different of a team they are at home as compared to the road. They really feed off of the crowd, which is desperate for some success. Full roster + home court = legit team.

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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I wouldn't read too much into the game last night. "it was just one of those games" But yes the Warriors do have some talent. Their starting backcourt is probably the most talented in the NBA and then when you have Ellis coming off the bench - that is perhaps the most talented trio as a group in the NBA.
    The Warriors play well at the end of every year.

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    When you are a horrible defensive team like the Warriors - they aren't going to be a good road team. You have to be a good rebounding and defensive team to excel on the road.

  24. #224

    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    Jack just got tossed in the 1st quarter of a very entertaining game between them and the Wiz. (37-35 Wiz after 1) He got called for a foul up by half court and would not stop b******* about the call. That's 2 ejections as a Warrior for Mr. Jackson. That + a 25 point Pacer win = a good night.

  25. #225
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    Default Re: Golden State Warriors Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bnd45 View Post
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    Jack just got tossed in the 1st quarter of a very entertaining game between them and the Wiz. (37-35 Wiz after 1) He got called for a foul up by half court and would not stop b******* about the call. That's 2 ejections as a Warrior for Mr. Jackson. That + a 25 point Pacer win = a good night.
    Don't miss it one bit.

    I can honestly say that I enjoy this Pacer team more, 11 game losing streaks and all.
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