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Thread: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    I agree with almost everything in his analysis of the trade. The quote from Al is in the second article out of the Bay Area

    http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/...ter_vecsey.htm

    January 19, 2007 -- SO what if the Suns, who previously won 15 games in a row, now have won 11 games in succession?
    So what if Chris Web ber (17 minutes, two points, five rebounds, three assists) made his Pistons debut Wednesday a Palace poop against Deron Williams and the Jazz?

    So what if the Ron Artest Welcome Wagon returns to Auburn Hills tomorrow night for the first time since that lovely "Audience Involvement Night" of a couple Novembers ago?

    Today's tome is dutifully dedicated to a pair of posses who began play last night combining to be merrily mediocre.

    Tuesday's trade of four Warriors for four Pacers was all about dumping toxic Stephen Jackson and catering to the styles of two coaches. Well, maybe not all about, but that pretty much sums up its motivation.

    So possessed were the Pacers to junk Jackson in hopes of helping restore law and order on and off the court, and, consequently, become more appealing to the community, they sacrificed Al Harrington and assumed roughly $30 million in additional contract obligation over the next four seasons belonging to Troy Murphy and Mike Dunleavy.

    That's how badly CEO Donnie Walsh and president Larry Bird wanted Jackson deported. Yes, his remaining $24M debt (this season plus three more) could've been bought out, but management didn't feel the assem bly of talent was good enough, big enough or tough enough to get any where worthwhile in the playoffs.

    At the same time, by tweezing Rick Carlisle's unremittingly irri tating ingrown hair, Walsh and Bird have removed any excuse their coach might have for a job undone. His structured sys tem has turned off many a core player over 31/2 seasons, including Jackson and Har rington. Swapping their ath leticism and spontaneous combustion, both positive and negative, for improved complementary pieces to Jermaine O'Neal - consulted on the deal prior to it going down, according to a source - means Carlisle got what he wanted, more coachable, more meticulous, deeper thinkers.

    When healthy, Murphy averaged double figures in rebounds and points two straight seasons. Due to assorted injuries and issues, the deliberate 6-foot-10 forward hasn't been nearly as effective in far fewer minutes.

    Murphy isn't the only one who didn't measure up to coach Don Nelson's quirky qualifications that almost exclusively rely on portable-positioned players who flaunt an agile offense and fast-moving feet; defensive discipline is usually introduced by his successor after a quick playoff expulsion or two, or, worse yet, no crashing of the post-tournament party.

    "I doubt Kareem Abdul-Jabbar could've played for Nellie," an East Coast team executive mocked.

    At any rate, Nelson dogged Dunleavy from day one, so much so that the media and the fans picked up the lame chant, booed him so lustily in Oaktown, the community named him an honorary Raider.

    Adonal Foyle also became an immediate outcast as soon as Nelson appeared, prompting early discussions of a buyout of the nearly $19M left on his two-year guarantee after this season. Furthermore, Derek Fisher was traded before the season even began.

    All of the above - Jason Richardson, too - had been signed to large, long-term contracts by VP Chris Mullin before Nelson arrived. Three of those players have been traded. Nelson also had no use for Ike Diogu, the No. 9 pick of the 2005 draft, so he became extraneous as well.

    No doubt Foyle will be next to go, and the chronically hurting Richardson (or Jackson) is bound to be dealt before the Feb. 22 deadline or some time this summer.

    Clearly, Mullin is banking his career as a Warriors executive on Nelson's master mind. He's subtracting and adding players according to his coach's specifications, just as Walsh and Bird have appeased Carlisle until further notice.

    By the way, the report out of who knows where by who knows who that the Pacers are talking to the Clippers about re-routing Dunleavy (for Corey Maggette) to play for his father is completely bogus.

    I talked to Walsh and Mike Dunleavy, the coach. They both assure me there is nothing to the story. In fact, the father says his son is extremely excited at the prospects of playing off a certified All-Star post player for the first time as a pro. At 6-9, Michael Jr. is an excellent entry passer and a better than average spot-up shooter. Clearly, O'Neal, Dunleavy and Murphy should prosper feeding off each other.

    Meanwhile, the Warriors have the ignominy of the league's most dysfunctional and defensively deficient (106.8 ppg allowed) district. The Nelson household has lost four of its last five games and is just 12-18 after foolin' the folks with a 7-3 getaway.

    "We saw a deal that was going to make us better and we went ahead and did it," Mullin said.

    Let's just say the bar, as previously Mullin-manufactured, wasn't set too high.

    As for the Pacers, they accomplished exactly what they set out to do: They ditched Jackson, who, by the way, instantly reloaded when he heard he was off to Oakland.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vescey's Friday column

    Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but it seems Al is blaming JO for the slow down ball. We are remember JO tirade in the coaches office after the first Boston game.

    http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...printstory.jsp


    Harrington is eager to play Nellie Ball
    NEW WARRIOR HAPPY TO LEAVE PACERS' SLOWDOWN STYLE BEHIND
    By Geoff Lepper
    MediaNews

    Warriors executive vice president Chris Mullin has no one to blame but himself if someone makes off with his H-O-R-S-E crown. After two years of constant losses, Al Harrington is looking to knock off the champ.

    ``Now I'm ready for him,'' said Harrington, who lost plenty of cash to Mullin in shooting contests when the two were teammates on the Indiana Pacers in 1998-2000. ``I never could win, but I finally feel like I'm a good enough shooter that I can probably get some of that money out of his pocket.''

    Harrington had plenty of reason to joke around Thursday. After being denied a chance to play for his first choice because Mullin and the Atlanta Hawks couldn't come to an agreement on a sign-and-trade deal last summer, Harrington and teammates Stephen Jackson, Sarunas Jasikevicius and Josh Powell were traded from the Indiana Pacers to the Warriors for Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, Ike Diogu and Keith McLeod on Wednesday.

    ``Obviously, when I signed with Indiana, I thought I was going to be there for a while. I wasn't going anywhere,'' said Harrington, who signed a four-year, $35.3 million contract to complete his sign-and-trade deal from Atlanta to Indiana. ``But Mully kept pursuing it and finally got it done.''

    Neither Harrington nor Jackson was a fan of Pacers Coach Rick Carlisle's slowdown style, which became more pronounced after an early season attempt to run more often.

    ``I thought (the faster tempo) was pretty good for us, but Jermaine (O'Neal) wasn't able to touch the ball as many times as we needed for us to win basketball games,'' Harrington said. ``We had to slow it down just a little bit so we could get him his touches. Once we did that, it kind of affected everybody. It's a tough way to play, especially when you have guys that are talented enough that can go out and create, make the game fun, just get things done out there.''

    It's hardly a surprise, therefore, to learn that Harrington is excited to play Nellie Ball.

    ``Definitely,'' Harrington said. ``The only thing is that they don't play up-tempo, they play fast-forward. I'm about to go in there and work out now so I can keep up.''

    Jackson was suspended for one game in December after making remarks to Carlisle that the coach deemed ``inappropriate and detrimental.'' But Jackson, 28, said he would have no problem playing for Don Nelson, even though the veteran coach has spared few feelings this season and pulls players almost on a whim.

    ``The situation with me and Coach Carlisle was that I felt there was more that could have been done to win games. (We) gave up sometimes too early,'' Jackson said. ``It was just me being a competitor and knowing I could do more to help my team win games, (but) I felt I wasn't put in those positions. I think me and Coach (Nelson) will be great, because he's been around a long time. He's seen guys like me come and go. He knows the relationship I need to have, and I know the respect I need to give him and I'm willing to do that.''

    For his part, Harrington is willing and happy to get back to the low block. The 6-foot-9 forward abandoned that post when he returned to the Pacers after two seasons in Atlanta, ceding the space to O'Neal and becoming an efficient three-point shooter (45.8 percent, fourth-best in the NBA).

    ``Here, playing (power forward) is perfect,'' Harrington said. ``I don't feel like anyone can guard me one-on-one. I will get double-teamed and be able to free up my teammates.''

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    All I know is that Jermaine is probably happy basketball-wise that this trade happened. Finally we're building around our franchise guy. How come we never thought of getting guys who can feed him in the post well before? Now we have Dunleavy, Daniels, and Tinsley.

    I really like this trade.

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    Default Re: Vescey's Friday column

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but it seems Al is blaming JO for the slow down ball. We are remember JO tirade in the coaches office after the first Boston game.

    ``The situation with me and Coach Carlisle was that I felt there was more that could have been done to win games. (We) gave up sometimes too early,'' Jackson said. ``It was just me being a competitor and knowing I could do more to help my team win games, '
    #1 It does seem JO isn't as vocal about losing his friend as I might expect.

    #2 The Jackson quote is great. Maybe if Stephen had got back on defense instead of gripping about calls they could have won more games.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    It was just me being a competitor and knowing I could do more to help my team win games
    Has there been another player LESS likely to take the RIGHT shot, make the RIGHT pass, than our dearly departed SG? None I can think of since Jonathan was playing.

    One of the biggest difficulties with him is the tremendous gap between

    1)what he think he knows and how good he thinks he is
    2) what he actually knows and how good he actually is

    There were basketball IQ and ego issues and now those are somebody else's problem.

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    Fear my small avatar Gyron's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    It does sound like Al didn't like the preferential treatment that JO got here.

    Sounds like Al wanted to be the franchise player.

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom View Post
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    Has there been another player LESS likely to take the RIGHT shot, make the RIGHT pass, than our dearly departed SG? None I can think of since Jonathan was playing.

    One of the biggest difficulties with him is the tremendous gap between

    1)what he think he knows and how good he thinks he is
    2) what he actually knows and how good he actually is

    There were basketball IQ and ego issues and now those are somebody else's problem.
    Perfectly stated. Great post!

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    Member odeez's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    MY thoughts, who cares? Jack and Al are gone now. Who cares who blames who and what. I am the one who lives in Oakland, where they will be playing. I am happy with the trade for both sides, and would love to just move on from the past.

    Go Pacers!

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyron View Post
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    It does sound like Al didn't like the preferential treatment that JO got here.

    Sounds like Al wanted to be the franchise player.
    Sounds a lot to me like a certain other "SF" who we jettisoned off to the west coast. How has that worked out so far?

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    All I know is that Jermaine is probably happy basketball-wise that this trade happened. Finally we're building around our franchise guy. How come we never thought of getting guys who can feed him in the post well before? Now we have Dunleavy, Daniels, and Tinsley.

    I really like this trade.
    R U kidding me, we have been building around him for 6 years, even when Reggie was still around and much more capable of leading this team.

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyron View Post
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    It does sound like Al didn't like the preferential treatment that JO got here.

    Sounds like Al wanted to be the franchise player.
    And he will be continually disappointed that he never will be.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    Good luck AL and Jack,you'll need it!

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    I didn't need a Harrington quote to tell me this:


    ``I thought (the faster tempo) was pretty good for us, but Jermaine (O'Neal) wasn't able to touch the ball as many times as we needed for us to win basketball games,'' Harrington said. ``We had to slow it down just a little bit so we could get him his touches. Once we did that, it kind of affected everybody. It's a tough way to play, especially when you have guys that are talented enough that can go out and create, make the game fun, just get things done out there.''


    If we're going to play that way then JO has to come thru and the other players have to play their role and do their part regardless of their own games and desires... or beliefs. JO is not sacrificing his own game whether it makes those around him better or not. Whether that's right or wrong doesn't matter because TPTB have decided they either agree... or agree to appease him.

    But when you try and force something so much, don't be surprised when other areas suffer because of it. It comes with the territory.

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    At 6-9, Michael Jr. is an excellent entry passer
    I'm just pretty excited to see a member of the national sports media write something about an entry pass. It's pretty unlifting to hear someone mention something nuanced about a player's game when most sportswriters can only differentiate between players as "Superstars", "All-Stars", "role players" or "scrubs"
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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Harrington
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    ``I thought (the faster tempo) was pretty good for us, but Jermaine (O'Neal) wasn't able to touch the ball as many times as we needed for us to win basketball games,''
    Help me understand. The way this is worded implies (and the record backed it up to a certain extent) that the team was unable to win if JO didn't get his touches.

    How can you blame JO for the faster pace game not getting him the ball often enough? How can you give the other players in the faster pace game a pass when their inability to score when free-flowing was a major factor in JO being double-teamed or having his passing lanes blocked?

    I know it is fashionable to blame JO, but if JO is the only offensive option even when the play concentrates on flowing around other areas of the court, our opponents only have to keep JO away from the ball. Period.

    You can say you want to play fast-paced, free-flowing ball, but you have to be able to score by getting the ball quickly down court (not having to pass back to the PG every time), hitting mid-range jumpers (not settling for a bricked 3 and back on defense), and moving the ball faster than the defense can block the passing lane. If you can't do that, then shut up and play a more structured game.
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    The media in the Bay area loves this trade.

    I'm expecting Dun and Murph to be ecstatic about coming to the Pacers.


    http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/p...plate=printart

    Article published - Jan 19, 2007
    BOB PADECKY
    What were the Pacers thinking?

    By BOB PADECKY
    THE PRESS DEMOCRAT

    The Polaroids, they have to be somewhere. Chris Mullin must have pictures of someone working for the Indiana Pacers doing something embarrassing. Like an audition tape for "American Idol."

    The Pacers couldn't have made that eight-player trade with the Warriors Wednesday straight-up, thinking they received value for value. Just couldn't. Either Mullin, the Warriors general manager, used hidden leverage or Indiana went utterly and completely stone-cold dumb. I believe in the hidden leverage theory because the great Larry Bird, of all people, is running the Pacers and no one has ever accused him of being a knucklehead.

    Bird thinks Stephen Jackson drove him nuts? Larry, just wait until you look in the glassed-over eyes of Mike Dunleavy during a game and wonder where he is. Wait until Dunleavy becomes a magician and makes himself, all 6-foot-9 of him, disappear. Wait, Larry, until you try to instill aggression - something that came so natural to you - into Dunleavy and have him stare back at you like you aren't there.

    For perspective, in the Bay Area only Giants reliever Armando Benitez receives the same kind of punishing treatment from the fans as Dunleavy did. The mere mention of either name at anytime, well, you would think they burnt down everyone's house.

    Sure, Bird ended up hating the very breath the persnickety Jackson was taking. That, however, hardly begins to explain Bird acquiring two of the softest players in NBA history, Troy Murphy and Dunleavy. And for Mullin to sell Bird on those two guys - and the $79.8 million remaining on their contracts - it's one of the greatest trading coups in modern sports.

    Honest. Like selling ice to an Eskimo, Mullin had no logical way to construct an argument in his favor, but somehow he did anyway.
    Mully, I want $30,000 for a 1972 Ford Pinto that has 350,000 miles on it. Make the deal by the end of business today. Thank you.

    It almost didn't matter if Mullin received anyone in return. Simple addition by subtraction would have worked fine here, those two players for a box of rocks works for me. Murphy, and especially Dunleavy, were an emotional drag on the Warriors. No future there, only catcalls. The Warriors were improved immediately by their exit and - hold on to your ticket stubs - Golden State now is viewed as pro-active.

    Conversation now feels upbeat about the team. It should. The Warriors have immediately - I hate to use that word again but that's the emotional surge the trade has generated - become tougher. Forward Al Harrington is not afraid of his own shadow, can score and likes to run. At 26, he's a keeper. Jackson, at 28, is the same way but, no, the moralists scream, Jackson is the ethical ruination of the Warriors, the devil come to Oakland to destroy it and blah, blah, blah.

    Jackson did jump in the stands in Auburn Hills and he did shoot off his gun in public and he did get into a screaming match with his coach and so he's not a finalist for Cub Scout of the Year. And if he just burps in public - Don Nelson will keep him on a short leash - Jackson will be out of Oakland faster than you can say "Latrell Sprewell." If a player averages 17.6 points a season as Jackson has done for the last three years, an NBA team will take him. After all, Sprewell worked for another two teams and for another seven years in the league - and that was after he choked a coach and was suspended for 68 games.

    Nelson, however, commands respect, and high-strung players who normally abused the system fall into line. Baron Davis was supposed to take down the Warriors with his bad attitude and was working on it when Mike Montgomery was coach. But Davis has been cream pie since Nelson became coach.

    Jackson is of very little risk, unless he takes out his gun during a game and jumps into the stands after screaming at Nellie.

    The trade was a stroke of brilliance. The Warriors are fun to talk about again. This doesn't make them playoff-ready, but now at least we can see the possibility. They don't appear stuck, inert, lifeless. And oh yes, Mullin saved his job for the moment if for no other reason that this: He beat Larry Bird one-on-one. Now, that doesn't happen every day.

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    Obviously Bob Padecky has no clue whatsoever about the workings of the Pacers.

    He has failed to realize they got a headcase in Jackson, a very inconsistant player in Harrington, a Euro PG that came into the league 4yrs to late, and a bench player that won't ever see the floor.

    Yes, a real steal they got.

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Sure, Bird ended up hating the very breath the persnickety Jackson was taking.
    I've heard Stephen Jackson called a lot of things, but this is definitely a first for persnickety. And I'm not sure who this Bob Padecky guy is, but he either doesn't know what the word persnickety means or he doesn't know who Stephen Jackson is.

    I also have trouble taking any supposed Golden State expert seriously when he fails to even mention that the Warriors had to give up a blue-chipper like Ike Diogu to get this deal done.

    I did like the Cub Scout of the Year line though. Pretty clever, Padecky. How's that working out for you? Being clever?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    I like how he made a big deal out of Jackson's scoring average the last 3 years, but strangely omitted the FG% and TO stats. I wonder why?

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    Well, the writer (Bob Pedecky) is right in a sense. From his own perspective, Jackson, and to a lesser extent Al, is just what they need. The two high paid players they traded were not fan favorites and seen as soft, horrible contracts, not worth the MLE (MDJ and Murphdog).

    Of all the crap that is said about Jackson, he isn't soft at all. The dude is a warrior, in more ways than one now I guess. AL, even with how miserable he has played on occasion here, is a stud, especially when he can be the man.

    So, yeah the Warriors got more talent, got the tougher players, and got the edge on the contracts in this trade. It is hard to argue with that unless you've been banging your head on the wall, watching the Pacers' last three seasons in morbid fascination.

    I heard some saying they love this trade just because TPTB had the nads to do it. I agree, I'm glad they decided not to settle with our mediocre team and took a chance. I wonder though if it was the right deal though. Time will tell.

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    Quote Originally Posted by Destined4Greatness View Post
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    R U kidding me, we have been building around him for 6 years, even when Reggie was still around and much more capable of leading this team.
    Its really wierd...but I completely agree with you. After JONeal became the franchise player......wasn't pretty much every move made since then supposed to complement and build around him?

    Its not like we would make moves to complement Tinsley or Foster
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Vescey's column - is Al blaming JO for the slow paced offense

    Quote Originally Posted by Burtrem Redneck View Post
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    Well, the writer (Bob Pedecky) is right in a sense. From his own perspective, Jackson, and to a lesser extent Al, is just what they need. The two high paid players they traded were not fan favorites and seen as soft, horrible contracts, not worth the MLE (MDJ and Murphdog).

    Of all the crap that is said about Jackson, he isn't soft at all. The dude is a warrior, in more ways than one now I guess. AL, even with how miserable he has played on occasion here, is a stud, especially when he can be the man.
    The one thing about Nellie is that he's not a player's coach. He has no qualms about benching a player for doing something stupid. The second that SJax starts arguing with the ref while the rest of the team is on the other end, the second he starts complaining that he is not getting as many touches, the second he does something stupid or doesn't play the way that he wants him to play.....he will get benched.

    SJax will either bend to Nellie's ways...or he will get used to warming the bench...there are plenty of players next to him in the rotation that does what Nellie wants. Nellie could care less that he earns 7+mil a year for the next 3 seasons...he cares only that his players listen and does what he says.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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