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Thread: A clean slate & a new day....

  1. #26

    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    It's tough for me to get excited about a trade designed to build a team around a guy who is a) IMO, not a legitimate superstar player and b) may not be around much longer anyway. If JO were MJ, I'd be ok with it. But he's far down from there. The last thing the team needs to be doing is stroking his ego - he needs to be under pressure to produce. Don't get me wrong. I think JO is a well above average player who'd be an asset to almost any team. But he's not the guy I believe you can build a championship caliber team around. As I said at the forum party, he's Scottie Pippen, not Michael Jordan.

    On the other hand, I'm glad to see management not wait till the offseason to make a move. I'm happy to see Jax gone (though who knows he may be back to serve out his jail term by the end of the year). Harrington, as much as I like him, obviously wasn't working out. It's hard to see how we've hurt ourselves with this.

  2. #27
    Member Roferr's Avatar
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    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Give it a month. Everyone loves the greener grass, that's why it's a cliche.

    58% FG by Miami, 10% worse than any other Miami game the last few years. How in the world do the defensive aces Dun and Murphy solve that?

    Would things really have finished better with Foster off the floor in those final minutes last night? Looked like he was saving their butt from a double digit loss.

    Shawne is no defensive stud yet, but will Dunleavy actually matchup better on defense than Shawne did last night?

    Golden State is 21st in opponents FG%. The Pacers are 10th. GS is LAST in PPG allowed, the Pacers are again 10th. And the Pacers have a better rebounding PCT at both ends of the court.


    If the Pacers had lost that Miami game due to a lack of offense, then I could see the hope. But I'm not looking forward to teams going 55% against the Pacers on a regular basis and them just losing games with higher scores.


    And in fact if you look at the scoring and spreading the floor, consider this: the Pacers just sent 9.3 3PA in December at a 41% rate to the Warriors.

    January it was 8.5 3PA at a 40% rate. For all the complaints about Jackson, the last month and a half he's shot the 3 around 35-36% which is his normal rate.

    Coming back from 3
    DEC - 6.8 3PA at 34%
    JAN - 4.0 3PA at 32% (without McLeod's 3 for 4 in 2 appearances for the month, goes to 4.6 3PA at 37.5% with it)

    So less defense, weaker threats from 3 including less attempts despite the higher tempo of play. And even in the per 48 minutes Dunleavy's assists aren't outpacing Jackson's by more than about 1 per 48.


    That's the concern. A lot less defense, less 3pt threats total, and not the rebounding impact that is implied (Al, bad as he was, still put up modest RPG numbers that are better than Dun's per 48, Murph doesn't outrebound Foster if he replaces him).

    All this for maybe 1-2 extra assists per game out of Dunleavy?


    And let's not overlook the Murph injury concerns in comparison to the health of Jack and Al the last 3-4 years.


    I'm glad people like the warm fuzzies, but I want some answers in regards to how this improves the team's ability to physically win games. If they don't win at least 11 games in this upcoming stretch of mostly home games this team is going to be headed for real trouble when the schedule gets tough again (and boy does it).
    Damn Seth, why be so negative!!!

    At least, give the new team a chance. You haven't even seen them play yet and you're already bad-mouthing their production. You're trying to play the game on paper and it's just not done that way.

    If the Pacers win 11 games of the upcoming stretch that would be phenomenal, with working 4 new players in, almost like pre-season again.
    .

  3. #28
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    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    The feeling after this trade ( or what we could consider to be a major change to the makeup of the team ) seems to be different then the major changes that occured in the past ( like compared to after the trade for Harrington or Sarunas during the offseasons or the jettisoning of Artest for Peja ).

    I pointed this out before in the Post-Game thread....but didn't the feel of the team and the overall game ( both in a positive manner ) seem different to you guys?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  4. #29

    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    Like all trades, this trade offers some opportunity and some risk. The opportunities are that we have some addition by subraction (Jackson) and the opportunity to get some people who can score. It is pretty amazing how poor the Pacers have been in shooting. The risk is obviously with the rather bloated contracts that now reside in our payroll.

    But, you don't get rid of a problem (Jackson) without taking on somebody else's problem (salaries.) I don't like Mike Dunleavy. It may be because he reminds me of his dad. Perhaps it is because he played for Duke. I have no basketball reasons, I just don't like him.

    I've always liked Murphy and unless I am dreaming, he typically likes to light us up like a Christmas tree. I really know nothing about Ike or McLeod, but people seem to be really high on Ike. And the best news is we didn't really lose anything. When I say we didn't lose anything, I don't mean we didn't lose good players. I just don't think they were well matched due to styles of play or just reaching a point where they needed a new opportunity.

    I do think this trade makes us worse defensively, which is the oddest part of all. Carlisle tends to like defensive minded guys, and Al and Jax had to be in our top 5 defenders. It seems like we are receiving more offense in this trade.

    On a positive note, it has perked my interest. Mediocrity is boring and it has least awoken my thoughts to what is going on with the Pacers.
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  5. #30
    Gotta Play Big BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    There seems to be a lot of concern about losing D in this trade.

    First, losing Sarunas helps our D.

    Second, Powell wasn't even playing.

    Third, Harrington is not a good defender. Not at SF and not at his more natural position of PF.

    Fourth. OK, Jack is a good defensive player. However, Quis is very good. Granger is sometimes better. Marshall is a very good defender. Greene is awesome and might get more minutes with Jack gone....even though he's a PG.

    We lost a little bit, but seriously...it's not going to make a difference. Don't be confused by Miami's good shooting last night. We still have enough defenders.

    The biggest impact will be on offense, unless Dun and Murphy play 30mpg. If they are both starters, we are choosing to keep our good defenders on the bench. That's very different than not having enough defenders.

  6. #31

    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    Every time I think that this is a really bad trade I remind myslef what we gave up. Al was only interested in promoting his own game; his lack of defense was terrible; getting rid of Al lets Danny play SF and play it better than Al could; Jax is a nightmare waiting for the next deep sleep. The major loss was Sarunas who found a way to contribute. Sure Murphy and Dun are not any better players but are probably not really worse all things considered. The worst is that their contracts suck. Ike will probably be a plus and the real plus that everyone overlooks is that Donnie will probably live a few years longer now that Jax, Artest, and even Al are out of his life.

    Now I am really whistling in the dark here but perhaps leaving GS has to be a plus for a player's career. All those losses for what?

  7. #32
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    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    Brother Peck,

    Short & sweet version - I agree with you 100% on Murphy and Dunleavy.

    And I certainly hold no ill feelings toward Baby Al, Cabbages or SJax but I think moving on will be the best move for them.

    It's certainly a new season now. For me, the 20 game rule starts over now.

  8. #33
    Banned PacerMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    Doleac was left wide open for free throw line jumpers.
    I think most of them were well beyond 15'.

  9. #34

    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    And he was guarded by our best defender JO, who didn't want to step out to contest these shots.
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  10. #35
    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    I believe several things were accomplished with this trade.

    1-Danny Granger will flourish
    2-A better midrange game will develope with Granger and Quis and
    Murphy playing
    3-Jackson is gone
    4-Chemistry will improve
    5-A more watchable TEAM GAME
    6-If JO does leave the Pacers are left with very good young talent
    to start over. I believe this is unlikely.
    7-With MDJ maybe the number of bad, lazy passes will decrease

    As you can guess I like this trade.
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  11. #36
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpolloloco View Post
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    And he was guarded by our best defender JO, who didn't want to step out to contest these shots.
    The entire point was to bring JO out, which can't happen because he is so crucial to stopping penetration. They only did manage to stop penetration when they forced Wade to pass the ball. Unfortunately both Williams and Doleac nailed shots all night that I doubt they would make consistently.

  12. #37
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    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    I believe several things were accomplished with this trade.

    1-Danny Granger will flourish
    2-A better midrange game will develope with Granger and Quis and
    Murphy playing
    3-Jackson is gone
    4-Chemistry will improve
    5-A more watchable TEAM GAME
    6-If JO does leave the Pacers are left with very good young talent
    to start over. I believe this is unlikely.
    7-With MDJ maybe the number of bad, lazy passes will decrease

    As you can guess I like this trade.
    I would also say this trade will allow Daniels to flourish.They just got rid of the starting two guard and the main backup pg.Either way Daniels wins.They could start Daniels at two guard and he gets big minutes or if they decide to start Dunlevy then Daniels comes off the bench and becomes a combo guard splitting time at pg/sg.

  13. #38
    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    Mike, I agree with you on the Quis issue. He is a midrange game player
    and that is badly overlooked part of the NBA game. How about the dunk he tried to lay on ZO the other night. He was way up there but it is hard to get
    through ZO's big mitt.
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  14. #39

    Default Re: A clean slate & a new day....

    Defense? I don't think it hurt us IMO, but time will tell.
    I don't remember our defense being any good all year other then JO. Jax had some good defensive games. All in all we've given up way too many points night in and night out.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

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