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Thread: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

  1. #1
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    I was watching NBATV last night (the replay of Peter Vescey's comments) and he said that even though Rick signed an extension over the summer he is not safe.(Vescey speak for his job is not safe) That was all he said and he did not elaborate.


    Then I read MM blog and it seems players are starting to grumble in the locker room.


    http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsi...nd_more_a.html

    One of the biggest winners in the trade was Rick Carlisle. There was mounting frustration in the locker room over his controlling coaching style, although nobody wanted to speak out publicly. Now more than a quarter of his roster has been turned over, bringing a renewed grace period.

    __________________________________
    So what is going on here. I will reserve my comments and judgements until later, but I'm curious what everyone thinks about this.


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    Member indyman37's Avatar
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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    I had the thought the after this year, Rick was going to move into the front office. And if thats true, we should just wait until the offseason and get a coach that actually can coach the style of play the organization wants it to.

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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    How many of us have seen the facial expressions of the players who are/were trying to figure out their role/position? I certainly am not surprised at all to hear that there is grumbling going on. I feel like Carlisle is the best we can get right now but he is very inconsistant. He says one thing and does another. He wants uptempo......right. I don't think he has a lot of security with the pacers after this season at all. It won't matter
    how many new players we get, RC will not change his plan. I think Unclebuck is right in saying this may be somewhat of a grace period given to RC.

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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Yeah, I updated JayRedd's Vecsey report in the trade thread with his full quote about Rick.

    Here are your choices:

    (1) The team is committed to getting a group of players Rick *can* coach.
    (2) No matter what they do, Rick doesn't have the "people skills" of a HC. Best case scenario: he just hasn't developed those people skills yet.
    (3) Vecsey's blowing smoke about Rick's status to emphasize just how badly the franchise wanted to get rid of Jackson and his lockerroom/ questioning authority disruptions
    (4) Donnie and Larry want to give Rick a period of time with the roster *they* like to see how he does with it
    (5) Tinsley really is the next to go
    (6) Tinsley isn't going anywhere and Rick is the next to go

    I don't know what to think yet. My opinion on Rick is well known. Having said that, the Pacers have nearly accomplished the impossible, since the brawl only three players remain: JO, Tinsley, Harrison. (And that's why you usually ship out the coach.)

    I'm not opposed to giving Rick time with this new roster to see what he can do. But I'm certainly not opposed to a change, either.

    Ike, Dunn, and Murphy may be half-court players, but they are not "stand around and watch somebody else play one-on-one players either."

    The Pacers MUST be more aggressive in the half court offense, and they must try to run and get easy baskets when they can, or Rick "is" a big part of the problem.

    For example, nobody is ever going to accuse the Bird/McHale/Parrish/Ainge/DJ Celtics of being an athletic, running team. But they played at a much faster pace than the current Pacers.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    And life itself, rushing over me
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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Where's the unknown in the this? HARRINGTON questioned the system, twice in public. Done.

    Al hit the bench in the 2nd half vs NJ and the comments were "it meant nothing"...um, really. Looks like it did actually. And then in the Kravitz thread I noted Rick's specific criticism of Al - the team scored worse on fast breaks with Al at SF and that's where Al wanted to play, ie "I did what Al wanted and he wasn't good at it."


    Saras, while more stable this year, certainly hadn't earned Rick's trust as a big minutes PG.

    Jack got the PT that indicated support from Rick, but if you'll recall my "no more fastbreaks" thread and comments by others all over the place regarding the breaks, Jack was probably the worst player on the break the team had, he was terrible at it. Add to this the public rips on Rick by Jack at times during games (as he came out), and I think you see a pretty consistant message in this trade...

    Enough. Shut up and play the system because without it you guys aren't that good a team.


    If they really want to run, it wasn't going to work with Al at SF or Jack at SG. Rick's numbers on break points with Al at SF support that view, and we all saw how poor Jack was as a break finisher.

  6. #6
    GetMoney
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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    okay this is exactly what i said but then some1 deleted my post and gave me a 3-point infraction

    wtf? there's no freedom of speech here? what kinda forum...

    i simply don't think Rick should be our coach anymore. i wish bird would come back as head coach

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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by GetMoney View Post
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    okay this is exactly what i said but then some1 deleted my post and gave me a 3-point infraction

    wtf? there's no freedom of speech here? what kinda forum...

    i simply don't think Rick should be our coach anymore. i wish bird would come back as head coach
    It wasn't what you said (in terms of the Pacers) that got the infraction.

  8. #8
    GetMoney
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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    what did i say?

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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    I don't know what to think yet. My opinion on Rick is well known. Having said that, the Pacers have nearly accomplished the impossible, since the brawl only three players remain: JO, Tinsley, Harrison.
    There are actually four players left from the brawl. You forgot about Foster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    For example, nobody is ever going to accuse the Bird/McHale/Parrish/Ainge/DJ Celtics of being an athletic, running team. But they played at a much faster pace than the current Pacers.
    The whole league plays slower than teams did in the 80's. I quoted an article just last week about how scoring is down over 17pts/game since the '85 season.

    Here's another site, stops at the 03-04 season, that has the scoring dropping even throughout the 90s and 00s.
    http://www.baseballcrank.com/archive...tball_shoo.php

    You need to look no further than the rest of the league to figure out why the Pacers aren't doing as much running. The whole entire NBA has slowed down.

    EDIT: Here's a more updated league scoring average list
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...gue_stats.html

    Note: The P's were 3pts short of the league average for PPG last year.

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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    There are actually four players left from the brawl. You forgot about Foster.
    Well, that's easy to do.

    The whole league plays slower than teams did in the 80's. I quoted an article just last week about how scoring is down over 17pts/game since the '85 season.

    Here's another site, stops at the 03-04 season, that has the scoring dropping even throughout the 90s and 00s.
    http://www.baseballcrank.com/archive...tball_shoo.php

    You need to look no further than the rest of the league to figure out why the Pacers aren't doing as much running. The whole entire NBA has slowed down.

    EDIT: Here's a more updated league scoring average list
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...gue_stats.html

    Note: The P's were 3pts short of the league average for PPG last year.
    Most importantly, as I've said hundreds of times around here - the cause of the decreased scoring is not "better defense" but its slower play and fewer possessions per game. Control-freak coaches want the players to grind out the shotclock instead of take advantage of early opportunities to score.

    That slow-moving Celtic team could generate ten to twenty more possessions per game.

    LET 'EM PLAY!!
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  11. #11
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Some of Bird's comments yesterday about rebounding, playing hard, stopping dribble penetration seemed to be directed more at Rick and coahcing staff then at the players.

    I have a meeting to go to

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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by GetMoney View Post
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    what did i say?
    The posts you've been warned about or given an infraction for have all been either demeaning or hostile.

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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    Most importantly, as I've said hundreds of times around here - the cause of the decreased scoring is not "better defense" but its slower play and fewer possessions per game. Control-freak coaches want the players to grind out the shotclock instead of take advantage of early opportunities to score.

    That slow-moving Celtic team could generate ten to twenty more possessions per game.

    LET 'EM PLAY!!
    I agree, but the league is filled with those types of coaches. So unless you find the next Don Nelson (who didn't have a team even get above the lowest Celtic PPG average of 106 in the 80s, from this season back to 1998 and I stopped looking after that) you're stuck with a grind it out coach.

    You're not gonna get Mike D'Antoni or George Karl. And are you going to want Sam Mitchell, Bob Hill, or Eddie Jordan? Those are the only 5 coaches that cracked 100PPG last season.

    If you replace RC, the odds are you're going to get another coach that plays the same style.

  14. #14

    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    I think that this is Rick's last year with the Pacers, it has to be.

    If the Pacers want to get out and run the break more Rick has to go. He is to controlling. I don't think that he has the personality to let a team be free you could say.

    Not only Carlise, I don't see the coaching staff as a whole being fit. I did before and I still do now, have a big problem with no defenseive minded coach. Not only that, one of our assistants is here just to babysit Jamaal Tinsley. We need to make a coaching change this summer.

    Rick is a good coach. We could do much worse. But to get where we want to go Rick has to go.

  15. #15
    GetMoney
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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    The posts you've been warned about or given an infraction for have all been either demeaning or hostile.
    thas just the way i talk

    no1 else seemed to have a problem with them... are you rick carlisle?

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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie View Post
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    I think that this is Rick's last year with the Pacers, it has to be.
    I'd have to agree with this assessment. I think if Rick can't be successfull (and by that I mean a post-ASB run that at least leads to a hard-fought first round exit) after turning over players into a group that at least on paper fits with his preferred style of play, then his time has come.

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie View Post
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    If the Pacers want to get out and run the break more Rick has to go. He is to controlling. I don't think that he has the personality to let a team be free you could say.
    However, I have to disagree with this. Rick spent a lot of time this year literally sitting on his hands, and yet the team's lack of ability to execute in a free-form offense was still clear. As I said last year, the perimeter shooting and spacing ability of this team simply does not allow it to be a successful fast-paced team - and the team was falling apart if the defense got back fast enough.

    I give Rick props for trying to let the team free-flow. This year the players need not to blame Rick but to blame their own results when free-flowing.
    BillS

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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I agree, but the league is filled with those types of coaches. So unless you find the next Don Nelson (who didn't have a team even get above the lowest Celtic PPG average of 106 in the 80s, from this season back to 1998 and I stopped looking after that) you're stuck with a grind it out coach.

    You're not gonna get Mike D'Antoni or George Karl. And are you going to want Sam Mitchell, Bob Hill, or Eddie Jordan? Those are the only 5 coaches that cracked 100PPG last season.

    If you replace RC, the odds are you're going to get another coach that plays the same style.
    That's why I say the quality of coaching in the NBA is at an all-time low.

    They're all lemmings, running over the cliff together, except for a handful of nonconformists that don't ever get to work with high quality teams. Well, Bo Hill had a chance in SA, and led them to 61-wins one season and the WCFs the next season before Popovich blamed him for D-Rob, Elliott, Person and others all missing the entire season with significant injuries.

    Whatever happened to original thought and creativity?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  18. #18
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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by GetMoney View Post
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    thas just the way i talk

    no1 else seemed to have a problem with them...
    That's not true, and we have rules here for a reason.

    This is a moderated board, not a free-for-all where anything goes under the misguided notion of "free speech" (hint: this board is not run by the US government).

    It isn't for everybody.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  19. #19

    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If you replace RC, the odds are you're going to get another coach that plays the same style.
    I don't know about that.

    Rick Aldeman anyone? If the Pacers want to play up tempo there is a coach to do it with. He is probably the most proven coach that would be avaliable.

    Stan Van Gundy could be another canidate. I don't know how interested he is in being a head coach again, but he would be a good choice if he wants to.

    Terry Porter is someone I thought did solid in Milwuakee and should not have been fired. There is Mario Ellie, I think he is an assistant somewhere this year. I think that Tim Hardaway has been rumored to be interested in coaching but I don't know how good he would be. Mark Jackson's name has been brought up in the past as well I think.

    Marc Iavaroni could be another possiable replacement. He is the Sun's top assistant.

    Michael Cooper could be a canidate. He was the LA Sparks head coach, Denver Nuggets assistant and intern head coach, and now the head coach for the NBDL's Albuquerque Thunderbird. I think he would be an excellant choice for the new head coach.

    There will be a lot of choices out there to pick from. I think that the Pacers need to not only replace Rick, but replace atleast some of the staff as well.

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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by GetMoney View Post
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    thas just the way i talk

    no1 else seemed to have a problem with them... are you rick carlisle?
    No, but he's the creator of this site and what he says goes.

    If you'd like to stay, you'd better get a handle on the rules of this forum.

  21. #21

    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    and I think you see a pretty consistant message in this trade...

    Enough. Shut up and play the system because without it you guys aren't that good a team.


    If they really want to run, it wasn't going to work with Al at SF or Jack at SG. Rick's numbers on break points with Al at SF support that view, and we all saw how poor Jack was as a break finisher.


    That's exactly what it is. The players were wrong in griping. They weren't good at running and they weren't going to get better. Now I feel like we've traded off the malcontents and replaced them with players who are better in transition. I'm actually more interested to see how Nelson's going to deal with Harrington and Jackson's (lack of) running games.

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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie View Post
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    I don't know about that.

    Rick Aldeman anyone? If the Pacers want to play up tempo there is a coach to do it with. He is probably the most proven coach that would be avaliable.

    Stan Van Gundy could be another canidate. I don't know how interested he is in being a head coach again, but he would be a good choice if he wants to.

    Terry Porter is someone I thought did solid in Milwuakee and should not have been fired. There is Mario Ellie, I think he is an assistant somewhere this year. I think that Tim Hardaway has been rumored to be interested in coaching but I don't know how good he would be. Mark Jackson's name has been brought up in the past as well I think.

    Marc Iavaroni could be another possiable replacement. He is the Sun's top assistant.

    Michael Cooper could be a canidate. He was the LA Sparks head coach, Denver Nuggets assistant and intern head coach, and now the head coach for the NBDL's Albuquerque Thunderbird. I think he would be an excellant choice for the new head coach.

    There will be a lot of choices out there to pick from. I think that the Pacers need to not only replace Rick, but replace atleast some of the staff as well.
    And you know what type of a coach Tim Hardaway and Mark Jackson would be, along with the other assistances on your list?

    Rick is given credit for running the offense under Bird when they went to the finals. A team that was #4 in the league in scoring with 103PPG.

    What happened when he was given his own team? Just because you do one thing as an assistant, doesn't mean you do it as a head coach.

    There's very few proven NBA coaches that try a running type scheme, and isn't even close to being considered running when compared to the 80's Celtics like Jay did.

    The Ps aren't trying to completely rebuild, which would be what they would start to do if they brought in an unproven coach to run a system opposite of what they have in place.

    The odds of landing a Don Nelson or Mike D'Antoni are very slim.

  23. #23

    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And you know what type of a coach Tim Hardaway and Mark Jackson would be, along with the other assistances on your list?

    Rick is given credit for running the offense under Bird when they went to the finals. A team that was #4 in the league in scoring with 103PPG.

    What happened when he was given his own team? Just because you do one thing as an assistant, doesn't mean you do it as a head coach.

    There's very few proven NBA coaches that try a running type scheme, and isn't even close to being considered running when compared to the 80's Celtics like Jay did.

    The Ps aren't trying to completely rebuild, which would be what they would start to do if they brought in an unproven coach to run a system opposite of what they have in place.

    The odds of landing a Don Nelson or Mike D'Antoni are very slim.
    I don't think it is about finding a Don Nelson or Mike D'Antoni. Their teams run to extremes. I don't think that we have to do that.

    However, if Larry wants an uptempo team I think that Rick has to go. Even if he doesn't I wonder if Rick has the locker room under control although with a trade like what was just made maybe that will change.

    I'm not saying that really any of those coaches would be better than Rick or are the next Don Nelson or Mike D'Antoni. I was just listing the possiable replacements should the Pacers let Rick go. Especially when you give an guy their first head coaching job in the NBA you are taking on the unknown. It's a gamble. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. I trust that if Larry and Donnie decide they need a new head coach they will be able to spot a quality one regardless of his head coaching experience.

    I think that we have pretty much already completely re-built this team. Jermaine, Jamaal, Jeff, Danny, and David are the only current Pacers who have been with the Pacers over a full season. This team has made major moves. Why not change the coach?

    Like I said. Rick is a good coach. I have been a supporter of him. He just doesn't seem to be the right fit here anymore. Rick has had a tough tenure here after his first year that I think that has taken its toll on the whole franchise that the team and Rick himself deserve a new start.

  24. #24
    GetMoney
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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    lol wow

  25. #25
    GetMoney
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    Default Re: We need to discuss Rick Carlisle again

    do with me what you wish i could care less

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