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Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

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  • Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Longtime Warriors fan here with the basic lowdown on what you guys got. I'll try to cut with the B.S. and get straight to the point. This is just observation from all my years of watching them night in and night out. I put as little opinion into this as possible. I won't give an opinion as to who "won" the trade. I won't talk about contracts since you can look them up yourselves on Hoopshype. Just trying to give real basketball information to hard core fans such as yourselves.

    Here we go.

    Murphy

    #1, Don't look at his stats to judge him. That is first and foremost. He can be a huge stat whore. If he's having a huge statistical night, it's most likely good news for your fantasy team and bad news for the Pacers. Judge him by his effort and activity on the floor. Remember that.

    Has good height, but relatively short arms and a short wingspan. His measured wingspan is 6'11", which is the same as Jason Richardson's. Combine short arms/wingspan with his lack of athleticism and you get a player who plays substantially smaller than his listed 6'11". Not strong or athletic. Not an NBA body. Has what has been described by an observent Warrior fan as a "skinny-fat" body, which will make sense to you later.

    He swoops in well to grab rebounds. Good nose for the ball, especially on the offensive boards. Overall a good rebounder, but not as good as his #s would indicate. Refuses to block out. Absolutely won't block out. Did I mention he doesn't block out for rebounds? I just don't think he has the lower body strength to block out, thanks again to that "skinny fat" body of his. That part of his game is maddening. Should do a good job on the boards (won't have to worry as much about blocking out) playing next to Jermaine.

    Streaky outside shooter who's shot goes down the toilet when he fatigues down the stretch of the season. Has a nice jab step and stepback jumper, but he can fall in love with this sometimes and totally stall the offense. Streaky from the 3 point line. Has a hitch in his shot that he still needs to adjust. Used to be a complete black hole, but Nellie fixed his shot selection for the better. Can get you 15 ppg if you don't mind having 42% shooting from your PF, but the team is better off if he scores 10-11 ppg on 48% shooting. Still overall a poor passer. Should get open looks playing next to Jermaine.

    Has a decent first step to the bucket, but can't elevate to finish at the rim. First step to the rim is best used to draw fouls, where he is a decent FT shooter. Used to be quicker with better elevation before his added "bulk" slowed him down. Can't post up even against the smallest of players to save his life. Just don't bother trying to post him up. A waste of time. It's ugly to watch. He has to settle for fadeaway jumpers against 6'5" guys. Because he's lost his lift, will often get his shot rejected inside by players substantially smaller than him (he's somewhat fixed that problem this year). Rarely scores the bucket when in the act of being fouled. Overall, a very poor finisher at the rim.

    Not a shot blocker, but plays decent man to man post defense when he's focused on it. Has given Zach Randolph fits. His problem is help defense. He gives none. Gets lost when it comes to switches, screens, and picks set in the lane. Again, Jermaine should help him here.

    Health has been a problem since he bulked after his rookie season. Has had foot/ankle/heal problems seemingly every year. Nothing totally debilitating but definitely nagging injuries. Has lost a lot of lift and quickness since his rookie year. Has stamina/conditioning issues. Grabs his shorts in the 1st quarter if he's a starter that has to play 35 mins a game (which shouldn't be a problem with the Pacers frontcourt depth). Effort and intensity has really fluctuated up/down since he signed that big contract.

    Don't dare play him a center. It'll be a layup line. Make sure that he's in the game with either Jermaine or Jeff Foster. Don't play him at the same time as Ike. Definitely don't have him and Dunleavy on the floor at the same time.

    Overall: Needs to play next to an elite level frontcourt player, which he will now be doing. He's moving to a better situation. Big disadvantage with him (as with Dunleavy) is that he really doesn't give you a size advantage despite being 6'll". Opponents can guard him with a 6'6" swingman and easily get away with it. Don't make him a big minute (over 30 minute guy) or he'll wear down physically, which shouldn't be a problem with the Pacers frontcourt.


    Dunleavy

    Good passer with good vision. Runs the floor well. Generally makes good decisions. Good ballhandling for someone of his height. Can bring the ball up every now and then and serve as an auxillary ballhandler. Should do an excellent job of getting the ball to Jermaine. With the Pacers, he should be able to utilize his height to pass over the top of the defense to an elite post player for the first time in his career.

    Can drive to the hole vs. bigger/slower players, but doesn't have the quickness to drive past most NBA SFs. He simply lacks the quickness.

    Really needs to improve as a shooter. He's a clanker. Check his FT shooting at Duke. It's really not very good. His shooting % is inflated because he ONLY takes the most wide open of shots. A good shooter would shoot about 55% if he only took the shots Dunleavy dares to take. Not a good 3 point shooter. Don't count on this guy to be a scorer. If he's anything better than your 3rd option on the floor, then that's automatically a bad lineup you have on the floor.

    Like Murphy, he can't use his height in the post vs. small players. This is the worst part of his game. He literally can't post up the other team's 5'll" backup PG. It's that bad. He just lacks the strength. He'd be a matchup nightmare if he was stronger, but he's not. Like Murphy, has a problem finishing at the rim when he gets fouled. Overall, he does a better job of finishing at the rim than Murphy.

    Plays smart defense, but he easily gets overpowered and/or outquicked. Good at getting into the passing lanes and poking balls away. VERY adept at drawing charges. That's his biggest strength defensively. Can't rebound to save his life. Due to his lack of strength, he gets loose balls and rebounds knocked/yanked away from him easily.

    Oh, and don't play him with Murphy. It gets ugly when both are on the floor. They're a horrible fit together and Mullin was an idiot to pair them together long term. You simply get outclassed athletically.

    Overall: Needs a regular kick in the @ss from his coach and fans to be more assertive. Should play with more aggression and less tentativeness now that he's officially been relieved of having to live up to the expcations of being the #3 pick. That's probably the biggest thing this trade does for him. He couldn't handle the pressure that was created for him at GS. With lower expectations, he may finally find his comfort zone.


    Diogu

    The reason the Pacers did this trade at all. Has the potential to eventually be the best player in the deal.

    Short PF. He's shorter than Danny Granger. Is really closer to 6'6" 1/2". He's clearly shorter than Elton Brand (you'll see this when you play the Clippers). Can somewhat make up for it with his long arms. Not a super athlete. Doesn't run the floor exceptionally well. Not a lot of elevation. Can't play center or SF under any circumstance. He's strictly a one position player at PF.

    Outstanding and very refined moves in the post. Has a great feel in the post with either hand. Can score using a variety of moves strung together. Can score one on one against almost anyone in the league. Has trouble with really tall/long players in the post, but he can still get his shot off. Good mid-range shooter (better than Murphy in this category, easily). Good FT shooter. Great hands, great footwork. Should be able to abuse most players guarding him in the lowpost assuming Jermaine is in the game with him and drawing the better defender. Very good at finishing baskets after drawing the foul (unlike Dunleavy/Murphy).

    Needs to work on his passing. Can get singleminded on scoring in the post. Poor idea of where to be on the court if he's not posting up with the ball. Has trouble remembering plays. This is due to poor college coaching and primitive offense at ASU where he posted up and did nothing else. Needs to set better picks.

    Needs to improve rebounding, which he is. Taller players can reach over the top of him when he forgets to block out. He's getting better at this.

    Poor understanding of how to play defense (which hopefully Carlisle can fix). Doesn't know where to be (just like on offense). VERY poor transition defense. Often lets his man beat him down the court. Needs to get more intense on the floor. Often has stretches of non-chalance or indifference when he's not getting the ball in the post.

    Can block shots thanks to his long arms, but this is mostly on help defense. In these cases, he has to anticipate exactly when the shooter is going to release his shot because he's not very tall and isn't very explosive. That sometimes leaves him out of rebounding position. Tall PFs can usually face up on him and shoot right over the top of him.

    Should improve at both ends of the floor playing next to Jermaine. And as mentioned, don't play him at the same time as Murphy. That's another defensive disaster.

    Overall: Has potential to be a viable starting PF, but needs be paired next to a good defensive frontcourt player (preferrably that being the center). He is fairly one dimensional at this point, but it is a very good and rare dimension he possesses (low post scoring).

    Keith Mcleod
    Expiring contract. Not worth discussing beyond that.

    Have fun with your new toys and good luck. I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have.

  • #2
    Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Nice info. Thanks.
    You Got The Tony!!!!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

      Thanks! Very comprehensive post.

      Even though you strongly advise against putting Dunleavy and Murphy on the floor together, I think that's what we're going to end up seeing in the starting lineup. The only other alternative (barring another trade) would be to start Marquis Daniels at the 2. That wouldn't work too well because we would have NO outside shooting from our backcourt. So I think our starting lineup would be Tinsley/Granger/Dunleavy/O'Neal/Murphy, with Granger/Dunleavy being interchangeable and O'Neal/Murphy being interchangeable.

      Foster and Diogu come off the bench, with Diogu being the post scorer and Foster there to do the dirty work. But I fully expect lots of lineup experiments over the next few weeks.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

        Fantastic post.

        Hope you stick around and share your thoughts on other subjects.

        “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

        “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

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        • #5
          Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

          Trust me, Granger/Dun/Murphy at the 2/3/4 is not a good idea. If that's what Carlisle deems neccessary at the start of games, OK. But you don't want to do it for too long and (IMO) I definitely don't see being your finishing lineup.

          You're giving up too much to your opponents in terms of speed/athleticism, and as mentioned, Dun/Murph simply don't have the types of games that can post up and punish smaller players. So you'd be getting all the disadvantages of a big lineup without seeing very many of the advantages.

          Ike should work well as an offense of the bench guy.

          Thanks for the warm welcome.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

            Thanks for the info. Your assessment of Murphy sounds more like Webber after he was traded to the Sixers.

            Also...if your "don't play Murphy with Dunleavy" and "play Diogu with Foster or JONeal" rings true.....then I am hoping that Carlisle is able to effectively mix and match them in the lineup to get the proper mix fairly quickly.
            Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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            • #7
              Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

              Murphy can serve as an effective role player. He just doesn't have the overall talent/atheltcism to be a true frontline/stand alone starting PF. Better served coming off the bench. If you're going to start him, the guy next to him needs to be an elite/all-star caliber bigman. Good thing you have that Jermaine O'neal guy.

              Who's more athletic between the current Murphy and the current Chris Webber? That is a tough call. When Murphy's heal injury gets a little better, he may have the edge.

              The Murph-Dun duo was easily the least favorite combo any Warrior fan wanted to see. It just doesn't work well. They don't complement each other well at all, invade upon each other's spots the floor, and you're simply at too big of an athletic disadvantage. And they just don't have the types of games that can take advantage of their size and punish smaller players inside. It's essentially two tall white guys who are so-so/streaky shooters roaming the perimeter at the same time and unable to post up.

              But who knows. Maybe that combo can work better with Jermaine in there as well. With Jermaine, Dunleavy actually has a real bonafide all-star bigman to pass to instead of just passing to another perimeter bigman like Murphy or an inept center like Foyle.

              Avoid Ike/Murph at the 4/5 at ALL costs. That is just a layup drill for the other team. It's horrible. With the Pacers' frontcourt depth, I don't see why they should ever have to resort to that. A competent defensive minded coach like Carlisle should be able to figure all that out.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

                Great post D.C.

                It's these kinds of posts that make a board so great.

                Question: With all of Ike's possible upside, why are you trading him?
                "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

                  Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                  Great post D.C.

                  It's these kinds of posts that make a board so great.

                  Question: With all of Ike's possible upside, why are you trading him?
                  I think this trade just kind of mushroomed.

                  We wanted Jax out of here, and we've coveted Diogu. GS wanted Harrington, but they also wanted to get rid of a couple of big contracts for players that just weren't seeing the minutes that were originally planned for them.

                  But the main players in the trade are Harrington and Diogu.

                  You throw those six players together, and you essentially have a trade. Sarunas and McLeod were just thrown in to equal out the dollars.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

                    Yeah, but if Ike is all that, they wouldn't have traded him.

                    There's got to more to it.
                    "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

                      Great post, and I must say I agree with everything in your post. Bob should have read this before he wrote his column yesterday.

                      I've never been impressed with Murphy (I don't expect him to beat out Jeff - he and Jeff will both average in the high twenties but I consider Jeff a better player).

                      I like Dunleavy a little more than Murph - that is more of a personal preference. But if fans think he's an excellent shooter they will be very surprised because he isn't.


                      McKeyfan: let me make an important point that answers your questions and others questions I heard from Rakestraw and others yesterday. Why did G. State trade Diogu if he's as good as I and many others believe. and the other question as asked by Greg Rakestraw is why didn't the Pacers make this trade over the summer or last year.

                      The main reason why the Warriors are willing to trade Ike is because Nellie is the coach and Ike doesn't fit into Nellie system. Nellie doesn't like or use post up players - he doesn't like or use players who can't get their own shot off the dribble. (I wonder how Al will fit in)

                      And why didn't this trade take place over the summer - we know the pacers wanted Ike last year - what changed - Nellie took over as coach - in other words the Warriors were not going to trade Ike last season or last summer. And I believe they will regret trading him.

                      As I said 5 minutes after I heard the deal Diogu is the key. I usually judge a multi-player trade by which team gets the best player. Right now Al is the best player, but I think Diogu will be better than Al in two or 3 seasons. He certainly has the talent to be better than Al.


                      Here are some comments from a biased source about Dunleavy -

                      http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...1/18/TRADE.TMP

                      Same goes for Dunleavy, according to his father, Clippers coach Mike Dunleavy Sr.

                      "I think it will be very good," said the elder Dunleavy, who criticized Warriors fans for booing his son in Oakland on Monday. "Part of the situation is the expectation of somebody when you're coming in. He didn't go in there saying, 'I'm a superstar player.' Basically, what he's been his whole career has been a great team player who's won a championship at every level he's ever played at. ...

                      "If you were looking at him to be Dirk Nowitzki, you made a mistake. If you're looking at him to be a good, solid player for a good team, that's who he is."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

                        Originally posted by d_c View Post
                        The Murph-Dun duo was easily the least favorite combo any Warrior fan wanted to see. It just doesn't work well. They don't complement each other well at all, invade upon each other's spots the floor,
                        I appreciate everything you posted here, and don't want to rag on your team. But this sounds to me like more of a coaching problem. And recent history doesn't seem to argue against it.
                        This space for rent.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

                          Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                          McKeyfan: let me make an important point that answers your questions and others questions I heard from Rakestraw and others yesterday. Why did G. State trade Diogu if he's as good as I and many others believe. and the other question as asked by Greg Rakestraw is why didn't the Pacers make this trade over the summer or last year.

                          The main reason why the Warriors are willing to trade Ike is because Nellie is the coach and Ike doesn't fit into Nellie system. Nellie doesn't like or use post up players - he doesn't like or use players who can't get their own shot off the dribble. (I wonder how Al will fit in)

                          And why didn't this trade take place over the summer - we know the pacers wanted Ike last year - what changed - Nellie took over as coach - in other words the Warriors were not going to trade Ike last season or last summer. And I believe they will regret trading him.
                          I agree UB, but I believe the emergence of Biedrins in the early season also made Ike a little more expendable. It's pretty hard to develop two young big guys simultaneously and expect to win many games. So when they saw the immense progress/skilll/potential of Biedrins, who fits in with Nellieball a lot better, Mullin probably saw Diogu as the "sweetener" he needed to dump some of his past mistakes (contracts of Murphy/Dunleavy).

                          Basically, I don't know if they would have traded away their 23-year-old potentially stud big man in order to rid themselves of their perceived contract problems if they didn't have another 20-year-old potentially stud big man, who's actually even bigger and seems to fit with their Hall of Fame coach better.
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                          • #14
                            Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

                            My assumption is that Murphy is a direct replacement for Harrington, and this only suggests it further. His game is A LOT like Al's at both ends...with one HUGE exception.

                            Murph won't complain about playing off the bench, which he will be asked to do (Granger starts at SF, not sure about the SG solution). That's where Al was headed but probably was going to throw a fit about it. Swapping the 2 gives you a PF that can spread the floor, a moderate rebounder at best, and not a good defender going both directions in the deal.


                            MD might be asked to start, or might be moving on to LAC. He could start I suppose, but it would be a little awkward I think.


                            Diogu - he's Harrison. Great offensive footwork, good help shot blocker, lost otherwise, not a great rebounder for the position. Ike has probably shown a little more improvement off of his potential so far, and Harrison is a pure center to Ike's pure PF.


                            Irony - Al wanted to play in the post more and he's headed to a coach that doesn't like to work the post very much, thus Ike being moved.


                            BTW, loved the comprehensive write-up. Great analysis.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

                              Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post

                              Diogu - he's Harrison. Great offensive footwork, good help shot blocker, lost otherwise, not a great rebounder for the position. Ike has probably shown a little more improvement off of his potential so far, and Harrison is a pure center to Ike's pure PF.



                              .
                              I pray you are wrong about that. And I think you are (although I don't know anything about Ike's mental makeup) But Ike is a much better shooter than DH. As evidenced by Ike's 81% career FT %

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