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Thread: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

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    Default Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Longtime Warriors fan here with the basic lowdown on what you guys got. I'll try to cut with the B.S. and get straight to the point. This is just observation from all my years of watching them night in and night out. I put as little opinion into this as possible. I won't give an opinion as to who "won" the trade. I won't talk about contracts since you can look them up yourselves on Hoopshype. Just trying to give real basketball information to hard core fans such as yourselves.

    Here we go.

    Murphy

    #1, Don't look at his stats to judge him. That is first and foremost. He can be a huge stat whore. If he's having a huge statistical night, it's most likely good news for your fantasy team and bad news for the Pacers. Judge him by his effort and activity on the floor. Remember that.

    Has good height, but relatively short arms and a short wingspan. His measured wingspan is 6'11", which is the same as Jason Richardson's. Combine short arms/wingspan with his lack of athleticism and you get a player who plays substantially smaller than his listed 6'11". Not strong or athletic. Not an NBA body. Has what has been described by an observent Warrior fan as a "skinny-fat" body, which will make sense to you later.

    He swoops in well to grab rebounds. Good nose for the ball, especially on the offensive boards. Overall a good rebounder, but not as good as his #s would indicate. Refuses to block out. Absolutely won't block out. Did I mention he doesn't block out for rebounds? I just don't think he has the lower body strength to block out, thanks again to that "skinny fat" body of his. That part of his game is maddening. Should do a good job on the boards (won't have to worry as much about blocking out) playing next to Jermaine.

    Streaky outside shooter who's shot goes down the toilet when he fatigues down the stretch of the season. Has a nice jab step and stepback jumper, but he can fall in love with this sometimes and totally stall the offense. Streaky from the 3 point line. Has a hitch in his shot that he still needs to adjust. Used to be a complete black hole, but Nellie fixed his shot selection for the better. Can get you 15 ppg if you don't mind having 42% shooting from your PF, but the team is better off if he scores 10-11 ppg on 48% shooting. Still overall a poor passer. Should get open looks playing next to Jermaine.

    Has a decent first step to the bucket, but can't elevate to finish at the rim. First step to the rim is best used to draw fouls, where he is a decent FT shooter. Used to be quicker with better elevation before his added "bulk" slowed him down. Can't post up even against the smallest of players to save his life. Just don't bother trying to post him up. A waste of time. It's ugly to watch. He has to settle for fadeaway jumpers against 6'5" guys. Because he's lost his lift, will often get his shot rejected inside by players substantially smaller than him (he's somewhat fixed that problem this year). Rarely scores the bucket when in the act of being fouled. Overall, a very poor finisher at the rim.

    Not a shot blocker, but plays decent man to man post defense when he's focused on it. Has given Zach Randolph fits. His problem is help defense. He gives none. Gets lost when it comes to switches, screens, and picks set in the lane. Again, Jermaine should help him here.

    Health has been a problem since he bulked after his rookie season. Has had foot/ankle/heal problems seemingly every year. Nothing totally debilitating but definitely nagging injuries. Has lost a lot of lift and quickness since his rookie year. Has stamina/conditioning issues. Grabs his shorts in the 1st quarter if he's a starter that has to play 35 mins a game (which shouldn't be a problem with the Pacers frontcourt depth). Effort and intensity has really fluctuated up/down since he signed that big contract.

    Don't dare play him a center. It'll be a layup line. Make sure that he's in the game with either Jermaine or Jeff Foster. Don't play him at the same time as Ike. Definitely don't have him and Dunleavy on the floor at the same time.

    Overall: Needs to play next to an elite level frontcourt player, which he will now be doing. He's moving to a better situation. Big disadvantage with him (as with Dunleavy) is that he really doesn't give you a size advantage despite being 6'll". Opponents can guard him with a 6'6" swingman and easily get away with it. Don't make him a big minute (over 30 minute guy) or he'll wear down physically, which shouldn't be a problem with the Pacers frontcourt.


    Dunleavy

    Good passer with good vision. Runs the floor well. Generally makes good decisions. Good ballhandling for someone of his height. Can bring the ball up every now and then and serve as an auxillary ballhandler. Should do an excellent job of getting the ball to Jermaine. With the Pacers, he should be able to utilize his height to pass over the top of the defense to an elite post player for the first time in his career.

    Can drive to the hole vs. bigger/slower players, but doesn't have the quickness to drive past most NBA SFs. He simply lacks the quickness.

    Really needs to improve as a shooter. He's a clanker. Check his FT shooting at Duke. It's really not very good. His shooting % is inflated because he ONLY takes the most wide open of shots. A good shooter would shoot about 55% if he only took the shots Dunleavy dares to take. Not a good 3 point shooter. Don't count on this guy to be a scorer. If he's anything better than your 3rd option on the floor, then that's automatically a bad lineup you have on the floor.

    Like Murphy, he can't use his height in the post vs. small players. This is the worst part of his game. He literally can't post up the other team's 5'll" backup PG. It's that bad. He just lacks the strength. He'd be a matchup nightmare if he was stronger, but he's not. Like Murphy, has a problem finishing at the rim when he gets fouled. Overall, he does a better job of finishing at the rim than Murphy.

    Plays smart defense, but he easily gets overpowered and/or outquicked. Good at getting into the passing lanes and poking balls away. VERY adept at drawing charges. That's his biggest strength defensively. Can't rebound to save his life. Due to his lack of strength, he gets loose balls and rebounds knocked/yanked away from him easily.

    Oh, and don't play him with Murphy. It gets ugly when both are on the floor. They're a horrible fit together and Mullin was an idiot to pair them together long term. You simply get outclassed athletically.

    Overall: Needs a regular kick in the @ss from his coach and fans to be more assertive. Should play with more aggression and less tentativeness now that he's officially been relieved of having to live up to the expcations of being the #3 pick. That's probably the biggest thing this trade does for him. He couldn't handle the pressure that was created for him at GS. With lower expectations, he may finally find his comfort zone.


    Diogu

    The reason the Pacers did this trade at all. Has the potential to eventually be the best player in the deal.

    Short PF. He's shorter than Danny Granger. Is really closer to 6'6" 1/2". He's clearly shorter than Elton Brand (you'll see this when you play the Clippers). Can somewhat make up for it with his long arms. Not a super athlete. Doesn't run the floor exceptionally well. Not a lot of elevation. Can't play center or SF under any circumstance. He's strictly a one position player at PF.

    Outstanding and very refined moves in the post. Has a great feel in the post with either hand. Can score using a variety of moves strung together. Can score one on one against almost anyone in the league. Has trouble with really tall/long players in the post, but he can still get his shot off. Good mid-range shooter (better than Murphy in this category, easily). Good FT shooter. Great hands, great footwork. Should be able to abuse most players guarding him in the lowpost assuming Jermaine is in the game with him and drawing the better defender. Very good at finishing baskets after drawing the foul (unlike Dunleavy/Murphy).

    Needs to work on his passing. Can get singleminded on scoring in the post. Poor idea of where to be on the court if he's not posting up with the ball. Has trouble remembering plays. This is due to poor college coaching and primitive offense at ASU where he posted up and did nothing else. Needs to set better picks.

    Needs to improve rebounding, which he is. Taller players can reach over the top of him when he forgets to block out. He's getting better at this.

    Poor understanding of how to play defense (which hopefully Carlisle can fix). Doesn't know where to be (just like on offense). VERY poor transition defense. Often lets his man beat him down the court. Needs to get more intense on the floor. Often has stretches of non-chalance or indifference when he's not getting the ball in the post.

    Can block shots thanks to his long arms, but this is mostly on help defense. In these cases, he has to anticipate exactly when the shooter is going to release his shot because he's not very tall and isn't very explosive. That sometimes leaves him out of rebounding position. Tall PFs can usually face up on him and shoot right over the top of him.

    Should improve at both ends of the floor playing next to Jermaine. And as mentioned, don't play him at the same time as Murphy. That's another defensive disaster.

    Overall: Has potential to be a viable starting PF, but needs be paired next to a good defensive frontcourt player (preferrably that being the center). He is fairly one dimensional at this point, but it is a very good and rare dimension he possesses (low post scoring).

    Keith Mcleod
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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Nice info. Thanks.
    You Got The Tony!!!!!!

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Thanks! Very comprehensive post.

    Even though you strongly advise against putting Dunleavy and Murphy on the floor together, I think that's what we're going to end up seeing in the starting lineup. The only other alternative (barring another trade) would be to start Marquis Daniels at the 2. That wouldn't work too well because we would have NO outside shooting from our backcourt. So I think our starting lineup would be Tinsley/Granger/Dunleavy/O'Neal/Murphy, with Granger/Dunleavy being interchangeable and O'Neal/Murphy being interchangeable.

    Foster and Diogu come off the bench, with Diogu being the post scorer and Foster there to do the dirty work. But I fully expect lots of lineup experiments over the next few weeks.

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Fantastic post.

    Hope you stick around and share your thoughts on other subjects.

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Trust me, Granger/Dun/Murphy at the 2/3/4 is not a good idea. If that's what Carlisle deems neccessary at the start of games, OK. But you don't want to do it for too long and (IMO) I definitely don't see being your finishing lineup.

    You're giving up too much to your opponents in terms of speed/athleticism, and as mentioned, Dun/Murph simply don't have the types of games that can post up and punish smaller players. So you'd be getting all the disadvantages of a big lineup without seeing very many of the advantages.

    Ike should work well as an offense of the bench guy.

    Thanks for the warm welcome.

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Thanks for the info. Your assessment of Murphy sounds more like Webber after he was traded to the Sixers.

    Also...if your "don't play Murphy with Dunleavy" and "play Diogu with Foster or JONeal" rings true.....then I am hoping that Carlisle is able to effectively mix and match them in the lineup to get the proper mix fairly quickly.
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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Murphy can serve as an effective role player. He just doesn't have the overall talent/atheltcism to be a true frontline/stand alone starting PF. Better served coming off the bench. If you're going to start him, the guy next to him needs to be an elite/all-star caliber bigman. Good thing you have that Jermaine O'neal guy.

    Who's more athletic between the current Murphy and the current Chris Webber? That is a tough call. When Murphy's heal injury gets a little better, he may have the edge.

    The Murph-Dun duo was easily the least favorite combo any Warrior fan wanted to see. It just doesn't work well. They don't complement each other well at all, invade upon each other's spots the floor, and you're simply at too big of an athletic disadvantage. And they just don't have the types of games that can take advantage of their size and punish smaller players inside. It's essentially two tall white guys who are so-so/streaky shooters roaming the perimeter at the same time and unable to post up.

    But who knows. Maybe that combo can work better with Jermaine in there as well. With Jermaine, Dunleavy actually has a real bonafide all-star bigman to pass to instead of just passing to another perimeter bigman like Murphy or an inept center like Foyle.

    Avoid Ike/Murph at the 4/5 at ALL costs. That is just a layup drill for the other team. It's horrible. With the Pacers' frontcourt depth, I don't see why they should ever have to resort to that. A competent defensive minded coach like Carlisle should be able to figure all that out.

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Great post D.C.

    It's these kinds of posts that make a board so great.

    Question: With all of Ike's possible upside, why are you trading him?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Great post D.C.

    It's these kinds of posts that make a board so great.

    Question: With all of Ike's possible upside, why are you trading him?
    I think this trade just kind of mushroomed.

    We wanted Jax out of here, and we've coveted Diogu. GS wanted Harrington, but they also wanted to get rid of a couple of big contracts for players that just weren't seeing the minutes that were originally planned for them.

    But the main players in the trade are Harrington and Diogu.

    You throw those six players together, and you essentially have a trade. Sarunas and McLeod were just thrown in to equal out the dollars.

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Yeah, but if Ike is all that, they wouldn't have traded him.

    There's got to more to it.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Great post, and I must say I agree with everything in your post. Bob should have read this before he wrote his column yesterday.

    I've never been impressed with Murphy (I don't expect him to beat out Jeff - he and Jeff will both average in the high twenties but I consider Jeff a better player).

    I like Dunleavy a little more than Murph - that is more of a personal preference. But if fans think he's an excellent shooter they will be very surprised because he isn't.


    McKeyfan: let me make an important point that answers your questions and others questions I heard from Rakestraw and others yesterday. Why did G. State trade Diogu if he's as good as I and many others believe. and the other question as asked by Greg Rakestraw is why didn't the Pacers make this trade over the summer or last year.

    The main reason why the Warriors are willing to trade Ike is because Nellie is the coach and Ike doesn't fit into Nellie system. Nellie doesn't like or use post up players - he doesn't like or use players who can't get their own shot off the dribble. (I wonder how Al will fit in)

    And why didn't this trade take place over the summer - we know the pacers wanted Ike last year - what changed - Nellie took over as coach - in other words the Warriors were not going to trade Ike last season or last summer. And I believe they will regret trading him.

    As I said 5 minutes after I heard the deal Diogu is the key. I usually judge a multi-player trade by which team gets the best player. Right now Al is the best player, but I think Diogu will be better than Al in two or 3 seasons. He certainly has the talent to be better than Al.


    Here are some comments from a biased source about Dunleavy -

    http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...1/18/TRADE.TMP

    Same goes for Dunleavy, according to his father, Clippers coach Mike Dunleavy Sr.

    "I think it will be very good," said the elder Dunleavy, who criticized Warriors fans for booing his son in Oakland on Monday. "Part of the situation is the expectation of somebody when you're coming in. He didn't go in there saying, 'I'm a superstar player.' Basically, what he's been his whole career has been a great team player who's won a championship at every level he's ever played at. ...

    "If you were looking at him to be Dirk Nowitzki, you made a mistake. If you're looking at him to be a good, solid player for a good team, that's who he is."

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    The Murph-Dun duo was easily the least favorite combo any Warrior fan wanted to see. It just doesn't work well. They don't complement each other well at all, invade upon each other's spots the floor,
    I appreciate everything you posted here, and don't want to rag on your team. But this sounds to me like more of a coaching problem. And recent history doesn't seem to argue against it.
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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    McKeyfan: let me make an important point that answers your questions and others questions I heard from Rakestraw and others yesterday. Why did G. State trade Diogu if he's as good as I and many others believe. and the other question as asked by Greg Rakestraw is why didn't the Pacers make this trade over the summer or last year.

    The main reason why the Warriors are willing to trade Ike is because Nellie is the coach and Ike doesn't fit into Nellie system. Nellie doesn't like or use post up players - he doesn't like or use players who can't get their own shot off the dribble. (I wonder how Al will fit in)

    And why didn't this trade take place over the summer - we know the pacers wanted Ike last year - what changed - Nellie took over as coach - in other words the Warriors were not going to trade Ike last season or last summer. And I believe they will regret trading him.
    I agree UB, but I believe the emergence of Biedrins in the early season also made Ike a little more expendable. It's pretty hard to develop two young big guys simultaneously and expect to win many games. So when they saw the immense progress/skilll/potential of Biedrins, who fits in with Nellieball a lot better, Mullin probably saw Diogu as the "sweetener" he needed to dump some of his past mistakes (contracts of Murphy/Dunleavy).

    Basically, I don't know if they would have traded away their 23-year-old potentially stud big man in order to rid themselves of their perceived contract problems if they didn't have another 20-year-old potentially stud big man, who's actually even bigger and seems to fit with their Hall of Fame coach better.
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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    My assumption is that Murphy is a direct replacement for Harrington, and this only suggests it further. His game is A LOT like Al's at both ends...with one HUGE exception.

    Murph won't complain about playing off the bench, which he will be asked to do (Granger starts at SF, not sure about the SG solution). That's where Al was headed but probably was going to throw a fit about it. Swapping the 2 gives you a PF that can spread the floor, a moderate rebounder at best, and not a good defender going both directions in the deal.


    MD might be asked to start, or might be moving on to LAC. He could start I suppose, but it would be a little awkward I think.


    Diogu - he's Harrison. Great offensive footwork, good help shot blocker, lost otherwise, not a great rebounder for the position. Ike has probably shown a little more improvement off of his potential so far, and Harrison is a pure center to Ike's pure PF.


    Irony - Al wanted to play in the post more and he's headed to a coach that doesn't like to work the post very much, thus Ike being moved.


    BTW, loved the comprehensive write-up. Great analysis.

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Diogu - he's Harrison. Great offensive footwork, good help shot blocker, lost otherwise, not a great rebounder for the position. Ike has probably shown a little more improvement off of his potential so far, and Harrison is a pure center to Ike's pure PF.



    .
    I pray you are wrong about that. And I think you are (although I don't know anything about Ike's mental makeup) But Ike is a much better shooter than DH. As evidenced by Ike's 81% career FT %

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Diogu - he's Harrison. Great offensive footwork, good help shot blocker, lost otherwise, not a great rebounder for the position. Ike has probably shown a little more improvement off of his potential so far, and Harrison is a pure center to Ike's pure PF.

    I disagree. As much as I've watched Diogu, his post game and footwork is miles better than Harrison.

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    Longtime Warriors fan here with the basic lowdown on what you guys got. I'll try to cut with the B.S. and get straight to the point. This is just observation from all my years of watching them night in and night out. I put as little opinion into this as possible. I won't give an opinion as to who "won" the trade. I won't talk about contracts since you can look them up yourselves on Hoopshype. Just trying to give real basketball information to hard core fans such as yourselves.

    Here we go.

    Murphy

    #1, Don't look at his stats to judge him. That is first and foremost. He can be a huge stat whore. If he's having a huge statistical night, it's most likely good news for your fantasy team and bad news for the Pacers. Judge him by his effort and activity on the floor. Remember that.

    Has good height, but relatively short arms and a short wingspan. His measured wingspan is 6'11", which is the same as Jason Richardson's. Combine short arms/wingspan with his lack of athleticism and you get a player who plays substantially smaller than his listed 6'11". Not strong or athletic. Not an NBA body. Has what has been described by an observent Warrior fan as a "skinny-fat" body, which will make sense to you later.

    He swoops in well to grab rebounds. Good nose for the ball, especially on the offensive boards. Overall a good rebounder, but not as good as his #s would indicate. Refuses to block out. Absolutely won't block out. Did I mention he doesn't block out for rebounds? I just don't think he has the lower body strength to block out, thanks again to that "skinny fat" body of his. That part of his game is maddening. Should do a good job on the boards (won't have to worry as much about blocking out) playing next to Jermaine.

    Streaky outside shooter who's shot goes down the toilet when he fatigues down the stretch of the season. Has a nice jab step and stepback jumper, but he can fall in love with this sometimes and totally stall the offense. Streaky from the 3 point line. Has a hitch in his shot that he still needs to adjust. Used to be a complete black hole, but Nellie fixed his shot selection for the better. Can get you 15 ppg if you don't mind having 42% shooting from your PF, but the team is better off if he scores 10-11 ppg on 48% shooting. Still overall a poor passer. Should get open looks playing next to Jermaine.

    Has a decent first step to the bucket, but can't elevate to finish at the rim. First step to the rim is best used to draw fouls, where he is a decent FT shooter. Used to be quicker with better elevation before his added "bulk" slowed him down. Can't post up even against the smallest of players to save his life. Just don't bother trying to post him up. A waste of time. It's ugly to watch. He has to settle for fadeaway jumpers against 6'5" guys. Because he's lost his lift, will often get his shot rejected inside by players substantially smaller than him (he's somewhat fixed that problem this year). Rarely scores the bucket when in the act of being fouled. Overall, a very poor finisher at the rim.

    Not a shot blocker, but plays decent man to man post defense when he's focused on it. Has given Zach Randolph fits. His problem is help defense. He gives none. Gets lost when it comes to switches, screens, and picks set in the lane. Again, Jermaine should help him here.

    Health has been a problem since he bulked after his rookie season. Has had foot/ankle/heal problems seemingly every year. Nothing totally debilitating but definitely nagging injuries. Has lost a lot of lift and quickness since his rookie year. Has stamina/conditioning issues. Grabs his shorts in the 1st quarter if he's a starter that has to play 35 mins a game (which shouldn't be a problem with the Pacers frontcourt depth). Effort and intensity has really fluctuated up/down since he signed that big contract.

    Don't dare play him a center. It'll be a layup line. Make sure that he's in the game with either Jermaine or Jeff Foster. Don't play him at the same time as Ike. Definitely don't have him and Dunleavy on the floor at the same time.

    Overall: Needs to play next to an elite level frontcourt player, which he will now be doing. He's moving to a better situation. Big disadvantage with him (as with Dunleavy) is that he really doesn't give you a size advantage despite being 6'll". Opponents can guard him with a 6'6" swingman and easily get away with it. Don't make him a big minute (over 30 minute guy) or he'll wear down physically, which shouldn't be a problem with the Pacers frontcourt.


    Dunleavy

    Good passer with good vision. Runs the floor well. Generally makes good decisions. Good ballhandling for someone of his height. Can bring the ball up every now and then and serve as an auxillary ballhandler. Should do an excellent job of getting the ball to Jermaine. With the Pacers, he should be able to utilize his height to pass over the top of the defense to an elite post player for the first time in his career.

    Can drive to the hole vs. bigger/slower players, but doesn't have the quickness to drive past most NBA SFs. He simply lacks the quickness.

    Really needs to improve as a shooter. He's a clanker. Check his FT shooting at Duke. It's really not very good. His shooting % is inflated because he ONLY takes the most wide open of shots. A good shooter would shoot about 55% if he only took the shots Dunleavy dares to take. Not a good 3 point shooter. Don't count on this guy to be a scorer. If he's anything better than your 3rd option on the floor, then that's automatically a bad lineup you have on the floor.

    Like Murphy, he can't use his height in the post vs. small players. This is the worst part of his game. He literally can't post up the other team's 5'll" backup PG. It's that bad. He just lacks the strength. He'd be a matchup nightmare if he was stronger, but he's not. Like Murphy, has a problem finishing at the rim when he gets fouled. Overall, he does a better job of finishing at the rim than Murphy.

    Plays smart defense, but he easily gets overpowered and/or outquicked. Good at getting into the passing lanes and poking balls away. VERY adept at drawing charges. That's his biggest strength defensively. Can't rebound to save his life. Due to his lack of strength, he gets loose balls and rebounds knocked/yanked away from him easily.

    Oh, and don't play him with Murphy. It gets ugly when both are on the floor. They're a horrible fit together and Mullin was an idiot to pair them together long term. You simply get outclassed athletically.

    Overall: Needs a regular kick in the @ss from his coach and fans to be more assertive. Should play with more aggression and less tentativeness now that he's officially been relieved of having to live up to the expcations of being the #3 pick. That's probably the biggest thing this trade does for him. He couldn't handle the pressure that was created for him at GS. With lower expectations, he may finally find his comfort zone.


    Diogu

    The reason the Pacers did this trade at all. Has the potential to eventually be the best player in the deal.

    Short PF. He's shorter than Danny Granger. Is really closer to 6'6" 1/2". He's clearly shorter than Elton Brand (you'll see this when you play the Clippers). Can somewhat make up for it with his long arms. Not a super athlete. Doesn't run the floor exceptionally well. Not a lot of elevation. Can't play center or SF under any circumstance. He's strictly a one position player at PF.

    Outstanding and very refined moves in the post. Has a great feel in the post with either hand. Can score using a variety of moves strung together. Can score one on one against almost anyone in the league. Has trouble with really tall/long players in the post, but he can still get his shot off. Good mid-range shooter (better than Murphy in this category, easily). Good FT shooter. Great hands, great footwork. Should be able to abuse most players guarding him in the lowpost assuming Jermaine is in the game with him and drawing the better defender. Very good at finishing baskets after drawing the foul (unlike Dunleavy/Murphy).

    Needs to work on his passing. Can get singleminded on scoring in the post. Poor idea of where to be on the court if he's not posting up with the ball. Has trouble remembering plays. This is due to poor college coaching and primitive offense at ASU where he posted up and did nothing else. Needs to set better picks.

    Needs to improve rebounding, which he is. Taller players can reach over the top of him when he forgets to block out. He's getting better at this.

    Poor understanding of how to play defense (which hopefully Carlisle can fix). Doesn't know where to be (just like on offense). VERY poor transition defense. Often lets his man beat him down the court. Needs to get more intense on the floor. Often has stretches of non-chalance or indifference when he's not getting the ball in the post.

    Can block shots thanks to his long arms, but this is mostly on help defense. In these cases, he has to anticipate exactly when the shooter is going to release his shot because he's not very tall and isn't very explosive. That sometimes leaves him out of rebounding position. Tall PFs can usually face up on him and shoot right over the top of him.

    Should improve at both ends of the floor playing next to Jermaine. And as mentioned, don't play him at the same time as Murphy. That's another defensive disaster.

    Overall: Has potential to be a viable starting PF, but needs be paired next to a good defensive frontcourt player (preferrably that being the center). He is fairly one dimensional at this point, but it is a very good and rare dimension he possesses (low post scoring).

    Keith Mcleod
    Expiring contract. Not worth discussing beyond that.

    Have fun with your new toys and good luck. I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have.

    Thanks for the analysis.


    After reading this I decided to watch the Pacers/Warriors game on my "TiVO".

    I pretty much have to agree about Troy Murphy, especially with his rebounding. He really makes little effort to box out as he gets caught watching. But he really goes after the offensive boards.

    Another thing I tried to pay attention to were his spots on the floor. It looks like he'll complement Jermaine pretty well, though I wish he took it down more. He's a really good passer, outlet and regular. I think I actually caught him focusing on passing the ball inbounds before the Pacers made their shot..slight problem. He puts a lot of effort into man-to-man defense. He also did a good job of inching Jermaine out of his comfort zone on the floor. He's a little bit quicker than I expected him to be from your description. He plays with his head up. One thing I disliked about his game was that he ran to his spot on the offensive side and then stayed there. There was little movement, aside from a couple of screens.



    Dunleavy was okay. I noticed his lack of a post game as he looked very uncomfortable posting up Sarunas. He ran some nice curls with some shots in the lane. He's a good ballhandler. He did lose his man a couple of times in transition though. Other than that not a lot stood out. I didn't see Diogu or McLeod play.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Great post D.C.

    It's these kinds of posts that make a board so great.

    Question: With all of Ike's possible upside, why are you trading him?
    A number of reasons. First, none of these 3 players fit nearly as well with Nellie as everyone had anticipated. He was basically brought in for Dun/Murph and everyone figured they had finally found the right coach for those two, but it turned out not to be the case. Cap reasons as well.

    The players we get are a little bit cheaper. If the W's want to make future moves, Harrington and Sarunus are probably easier to move straight up than Dun/Murph. Overall, it saves the W's (a team that may have to pay the luxury tax soon) about $30M throughout the life of the contracts. The owner probably liked hearing that. Overall, the W's needed the combo of players that fit Nellie's system better and more flexible contracts. The cost was giving up Ike.

    The Dun/Murph duo simply never worked well together. They didn't work under 3 different coaches. Let me clarify. When I say they take up the same spots on the floor, I don't mean they stand within 1 foot of each other. I mean they are two tall forwards who have to play on the perimeter and are streaky shooters. That by itself is fundamentally very flawed basketball.

    With that being the case, you'd better have an elite bigman down in the post who you can throw the ball down into. We don't have that. The Pacers do with that Jermaine guy. But even then, you are giving up a good deal of athleticism to your opponents at what generally are the two most athletic positions in the league (sf & pf). But again, these 2 have never played next to an elite bigman. I can't see how doing so wouldn't help them in some way.

    I like Ike's game a lot and definitely hate to see him go. I said he's potentially a viable starter at PF, but he needs the right mix of frontcourt players next to him to balance out his weaknesses. He's not a standalone talent (like Jermaine) who it doesn't matter who you put next to. Jermaine and Granger are a GREAT combo to put him next to. Dunleavy and Murphy aren't.

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    This article is worth reading


    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...type=printable

    Pardon me for asking, but what's the bad news?
    - Gwen Knapp
    Thursday, January 18, 2007


    Amid the exultation over the departures of Troy Murphy and Mike Dunleavy comes this one disconcerting thought, crafted by years of watching ex-Warriors thrive in exile: What do the Pacers know that we don't? They had their reasons for making Wednesday's eight-player deal, and on the whole, it seems sensible to trust the logic of a team that has gone to the playoffs 14 of the last 15 seasons over the instincts of a franchise that has been absent for 12 years and counting.

    If the Pacers' main purpose was to rid themselves of Stephen Jackson's unsettling temperament, then residual worries about the Warriors should evaporate. A change of scenery tends to adjust attitude problems, at least temporarily, and Jackson should have a nice little honeymoon period with Don Nelson.

    But what then? If, as often reported, both Jackson and Al Harrington have selfish streaks that disrupt team chemistry, this trade could create a whole new set of problems. Murphy and Dunleavy had become liabilities, financially and athletically, but they have to be replaced by superior players for any of this to matter. Addition by subtraction isn't enough.

    For now, the team does have better players -- more specifically, players better-suited to Nelson's scheme. Harrington has the quickness and power that the departed forwards lacked, and he has the potential to play Nelson's patented "point forward" position. His defense always has been viewed as a shortcoming, but he can't be worse than Dunleavy or Murphy or Ike Diogu, whose powerful body should have made him a better defender. Also, expect Harrington to be happier here than he was in Indiana, where he had to defer to Jermaine O'Neal in the power forward's job.

    As for Jackson, his undisciplined offense has unnerved the Pacers for a while, but the plodding pace of the Eastern Conference is particularly unflattering to his style of play. He should be more in sync with the Warriors.

    Still, that shred of pessimism remains. It comes from memories of Antawn Jamison becoming a better fit in Dallas and then an All-Star in Washington, of Latrell Sprewell's makeover in New York, of Warrior after Warrior who soared after leaving town. Gilbert Arenas is a notable exception, because the club didn't think he had overstayed his welcome here. The team lost him strictly over money.

    The Warriors have started making better decisions recently, particularly after they lost their fear of acquiring players who didn't got to college. Back in 1998, when Harrington left high school for the pros, the Warriors wouldn't have touched him. In the last three years, they have drafted teenagers Andris Biedrins and Monta Ellis, and both are vital to the team's future. Chris Mullin would not have considered trading them.

    Meanwhile, Dunleavy (three years at Duke) and Murphy (three at Notre Dame) became undesirables, and Diogu (three at Arizona State) became expendable.

    So the team broke one pattern. Can it break the big one, and do it permanently?

    There's a "wait till next year'' mentality tied to the relief over dumping the Murphy and Dunleavy contracts. The arrivals, by virtue of their freshness alone, might push the team into the playoffs, but they aren't the long-term solutions.

    Jackson has been on notice ever since he went into the stands during the brawl in Auburn Hills, and that didn't stop him from getting arrested on a weapons charge outside a strip club, which in turn didn't stop him from yelling at his coach and inviting a suspension last month.

    At that point, the trade became inevitable, just as Dunleavy's exit was sealed when Nelson called his performance "a disaster.'' One of the most remarkable developments in the NBA this season has been the ability of teams to trade a player loudly advertised as a pariah. (See the 76ers and Allen Iverson.)

    For the Pacers, this is the second desperation trade in two seasons. They have been in the NBA's elite for so long, and they were a pretty drama-free team until Larry Bird fired Isiah Thomas. Then came Ron Artest's recording contract. Then the fight with the Pistons and their fans. Then the forced trade of Artest. Then Jackson's problems. And now this. They are getting rid of Harrington just a few months after they reclaimed him from the Atlanta Hawks.

    They don't appear to be a stable franchise anymore, but could they really have been outmaneuvered by the Warriors? That wouldn't be a mere trade. It would be a revolution.

    E-mail Gwen Knapp at gknapp@sfchronicle.com.

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    For now, the team does have better players -- more specifically, players better-suited to Nelson's scheme. Harrington has the quickness and power that the departed forwards lacked, and he has the potential to play Nelson's patented "point forward" position.
    Am I missing soemthing here? Does Harrington have the requisite skills to be a "point forward"?

    Also, expect Harrington to be happier here than he was in Indiana, where he had to defer to Jermaine O'Neal in the power forward's job.
    Just wait until JRich and Pietrus return...I don't know if there will be enough shots to go around for Baron, Monte, JRich, Pietrus, Harrington and SJax.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Does anybody know about a decent Warriors message board? Because every one I've seen has been a joke.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Am I missing soemthing here? Does Harrington have the requisite skills to be a "point forward"?


    Just wait until JRich and Pietrus return...I don't know if there will be enough shots to go around for Baron, Monte, JRich, Pietrus, Harrington and SJax.
    Nellie has mainly started Matt Barnes (6'7"-6'8" utility forward & training camp invitee signed for minimum salary) for most of the games at PF. It's been either him or Murphy starting there. Mostly it's been Barnes and he's been getting major minutes.

    I suspect Harrington will essentially displace Barnes' in the rotation for the remainder of the season.

    JRich will come back this year, but it's unlikely he's going to be 100% this season, thanks to the way our genius front office handled JRich's knee injury last year and this summer. They were playing him hurt at the end of games last year when we were already out of playoff contention and delayed surgery on his knee in the summer. Don't ask me why. He won't be 100% this year.

    Pietrus' role on offense has been reined in by Nellie. His shot selection is good this year and only takes the most wide open of shots. If you look at how teams still defend the Warriors to this day, it's still about backing off of them and daring them to shoot from outside.

    On top of all that, don't take anything Gwen Knapp writes too seriously. She's not a good source. I don't believe she watches on a regular basis. Tim Kawakami, Janny Hu and Geoff Lepper are better sources, write more relevant stuff, and it's evident they watch the team on a regular basis.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Thanks for your analysis d_c.

    You have commented that having Murphy and Diogu on court together is like letting the other team have a layup line. Can you discuss each players ability as a post defender (in isolation)?

    Some of the Pacers best defensive play came when JO was sharing the front court with Dale Davis, whose post defense, rebounding and presence in the paint complemented JO's weakside shotblocking. I'm most interested in Diogu's ability to develop into that sort of player.

    The comment on Murphy being unwilling to block out is somewhat troubling. JO seems to have contracted this disease aswell, but he relies upon his athletacism to get boards, presumably Murphy relies upon positioning and timing.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Nice find UB, I like the thought of players blossoming after they leave the GSW.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

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    Default Re: Warrior fan with the lowdown on Murph/Dun/Ike

    Quote Originally Posted by skyfire View Post
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    ........
    Diogu can be a bit of a liability one on one in the post. A taller PF can simply shoot over him. His key is to establish good position to keep the opposing guy further away from the basket. It's not really a complicated thing. Diogu is never going to be a strong defensive player. He can get some blocks off weakside help now and then, but blocking a shot now and then and defending the paint aren't neccessarily the same thing. It's simply hard to be a really good inside defender at his height. Ben Wallace is an exception, but Ike is nowhere near as athletic as Ben. I'll lay it to you flat out: He's never going to be Dale Davis on the defensive end. He's always going to be a guy who's strength is on offense. He and Dale Davis are polar opposities in their skills.

    One thing I forgot to mention in my inital post is that, right now, he's quite foul prone. That'll fix itself in time. Overall, you need a guy playing next to Ike who's taller and defends better than him. The Pacers are in a good situation because they can employ TWO of these guys at the same time (Jermaine and Granger).

    Murphy can actually be a good one on one post defender. That's when he tries. You actually notice that he tries much harder against the superstars like KG and Duncan, but tends to slack off against the also rans. He's done well against Zach Randolph. Watch out for when a guard comes across the lane and sets a pick on Murphy (kind of like how Stockton used to do this for Malone). Murphy is vulnerable to these tactics.

    There is a rumor that Murphy had a clause in his shoe contract that pays him more if he averages a double double. Before the last game of the year, it just so happens that he was sitting at 10.0 rebs a game. Lo and be hold, Murphy sat out this game. The rumor is that he asked to sit out the game to make sure his average didn't go under 10.0 a game to ensure he averaged a double double for the season. That's just a rumor. Take it FWIW.

    Now Murphy likes his rebounds. He loves them in fact. He doesn't mind taking them away from his own teammates. He sometimes gets overzealous going after the ball. He has a good nose for it. That's what makes him a good offensive rebounder. On the defensive end, he often gets caught chasing the ball on the miss while forgetting to body out his man. And that's pretty much it. He has a bad habit of "chasing" the ball instead before blocking out.

    It may have to do with the fact that he's just not that strong and can't body anyone out, so he figures, "Why bother trying? I'll just go after the ball." I will say that it was beyond frustrating when the guy he was supposed to body out when the other team shot FTs would push him underneath the basket, get the rebound, and score off the missed FT. Those weren't exactly plays that endeared him to fans.

    I think having a strong presence like Jermaine will do a lot for him. Again, remember NOT to judge Murphy on his stats. Judge him by his activity and energy. That is the most important thing to Murphy's game. Unfortunately, sometimes Murphy himself doesn't understand this.

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