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Thread: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

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    Default A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    After his lack of production last night as well as his inconsistent performances all season, the first thought that comes to my mind is that we should move him. I still think it's something we should take in to consideration, and I think it's something that has to have crossed the minds of TPTB more than once this season. I played around with the ESPN trade checker a little bit this morning. I was trying to find a realistic deal that made sense for all parties involved.

    I pretty much came up with nothing. Other than Golden State, I can't find a team that makes much sense for us to be a trading partner with. Golden State went after Harrington in the off-season, and apparently Harrington wasn't exactly against going there. Right now I keep hearing that J-Rich might be up for grabs. I'd imagine that's probably true with the emergence of Monta Ellis. However J-Rich has been injured pretty often as of late (I believe he's still out now with a broken hand).

    The other guy that makes sense for this team [keyword: for this TEAM] is Mike Dunleavy Jr. I'm not a fan of his at all, but I have watched him play a lot. Having a guy with his ball-handling and passing abilities on this team would take a lot of pressure off guys like Tinsley and Sarunas to create shots for the offense. Not to mention Dunleavy is also a decent outside threat as well. Dunleavy would also open up more minutes for Orien Greene to get in the game and play his defensive game without having to worry about running the offense -- Dunleavy can do that [off the bench of course].

    On the flip side, Dunleavy's contract sucks. We've spent one too many years over the cap as it is. There's finally relief from that in sight. No need to go out and acquire another 'Croshere' contract. If J-Rich could stay healthy, he'd make perfect sense for us. We could use him extremely bad. But when it comes to injuries, we've been through too much hell to take that risk -- especially on a guy that would be brought in and be expected to be offensive option #2.

    That's where I started looking at things differently. Maybe we're just spoiled. As bad as it seems Al has been, I don't think he's been that far off his career numbers. He's even WAY up on his 3-point shooting. However you can't just bring in a player that was option number 1 for a few years somewhere else, and expect them to easily adjust to being option #2.5 ( 2.5 because you can never tell if Harrington is #2 or Jackson is #2). This has got to be the only NBA team I've ever seen aggressively recruit a Free-Agent, bring him in as a predetermined second scoring option, then hardly run a play for him. I think that whole concept is a bit, retarted.

    Al Harrington isn't Antawn Jamison. He's not quick off his feet in grabbing rebounds to the point that he can average 20 points just off rebounding (the Golden State Jamison, not Washington's version). Once in a while I see them post up Al, and once in a while I see him make an extremely quick move to the basket for the score before his defender can even get his feet set. That tells me that Harrington can be a strong post man if we utilize him there.

    I think in order for Harrington to be more effective, he'd be better suited for the second unit. Granger should start and give us the defense that Harrington lacks. I don't think Harrington is going to become a better player than he is now, but Granger shows a lot of promise to be something special. In addition, we also have Shawne Williams waiting in the wings. If we can get Harrington off the bench, he can play his natural PF position (Center in a smaller lineup), while opening up more minutes for Shawne, and even Rawle Marshall. At that point, we could probably bring in our entire second unit in the game, rest our starters for a while, and probably not miss a beat.

    Instead of us looking to trade Harrington, we just need to put him in a role that brings out his strengths, and makes a positive impact on the team. He's averaging 33.5 mpg right now, while Danny is averaging 30 mpg. They could probably average the same numbers they are now, just with different units. I just hope Al can be a team player and accept the role.

    That's my proposed solution to the problem....

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    I was for the trade to bring back Al, but only because of his leadership and personality. I knew he was not a good fit for the team, but I was still for bringing him back for the other things he would bring. After seeing just how bad of a fit he is, I am not sure bringing him on was a good idea.

    Now, I still think he's a good player. However, everyone needs to realize that he came from a team that had a horrible record AND that he was not even the best player. Joe Johnson is the best player on the Hawks. I watched the Hawks pretty closely, and I think even Antoine Walker was better than Al. Considering both sides of the ball, I think Jack might be the better player....at least he fits better in the starting lineup.

    If he would be 100% ok with a backup role, that's not a bad option. However, his role should be limited to giving JO a blow. We need JO on the floor at all times with a real C, so I don't want him subbing for Foster. I also don't think he should ever play SF.

    All things considered, I think moving Al for a shooter, either PG or SG, is the best plan.

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Excellent post.

    Al has certainly not lived up to expectations. Sure, his stats might say otherwise, but we all are aware of what he can and cannot bring on the floor any given night. His reliance on perimeter shots is disconcerting, his defense has been lackluster to say the least, and his rebounding is awful. However, when he is getting touches, he's pretty much deadly - his shot in the Golden State game (prior to Jack's game winner obviously) was amazing - it was clutch, brilliant, and difficult. And, of course, he is a good-natured guy who is undoubtedly a solid presence in the locker room (except for the complaints to the media about his touches).

    I wholeheartedly agree that putting him with the 2nd unit (while still giving him 30+ MPG) would work out very well. Granger is reliable on both sides of the floor for the most part and does not demand the ball nearly as much as Al. Jack would be the bonafide #2 option on the starting unit, as he is used to. JO would most likely receive more touches, ideally in the post.

    If Al would accept a modified role to better suit the team, I'm all for him staying. However, if he cannot provide a more consistently valuable effort, we should definitely evaluate our options. Perhaps we could trade him for a PG.

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    All things considered, I think moving Al for a shooter, either PG or SG, is the best plan.
    I do too, but what team do you see as a realistic trading partner there?

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy View Post
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    I do too, but what team do you see as a realistic trading partner there?
    Dre Miller for Harrington works. However, I'm not sure if that would even be a feasible option for Philadelphia, if they are indeed rebuilding.

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    I was against obtaining Al from the very beginning unless it was just to secure him for a future trade. He was a stat man here before leaving and nothing has changed. I've mentioned it before, but the first thing he would do after a game win or lose, was to check his stat line when he hit the locker room. Sort of akin to looking at a group picture and seeing only yourself.

    He has been very inconsistent, one night 20 something points the next 2-4. My big question is when he's not contributing why in the heck does RC play him 35-38 minutes? We've got Marshall and Williams sitting on the bench who could benefit from these minutes when he's MIA. I have to put this directly on the coach. If RC plays him to just placate him, then it's time for RC to move on.
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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    I really think that Al is still a sixth man in this league or the 4th option on a good team. Maybe a starter or first or second option on a team like IDK the Hawks say, but on a team fighting for a playoff position he is a problem being your second offensive option. I feel more comfortable with Jack or Tins having the ball offensively to be honest.

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    I don't think Harrington's inconsistency is entirely Harrington's fault. Frankly, he's more consistent than Granger. That should be a signal right there.

    Our team continues to have problems with understanding roles and having a team identity in general. This problem is not specific to any one player.

    As we are only half way through a re-build, our record and inconsistent play were not only foreseeable, they were completely expected from many of us. Generally, I would consider our team as slightly over-acheiving at this point. (Yeah, I said it. )

    I expect Harrington to have a much better season next year, because I expect the team to be a much more stable place to play.

    The only thing that worries me is the rumored "opt out" in JO's contract. It scares me when I have more patience than our star player.
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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Was AGAINST the trade for can't-depend-on-him-when-it-counts AL BIGTIME.

    Nothing burns me more than having to give up a 2007 #1 for a plug. Which effectively means this team can't get better anytime soon.

    Everyone who wanted him on the team and is now seeing a bit clearer:

    enjoy the 2007 draft next June.

    Especially when the odds are good that an impact player could've been had in the mid teens.

    Walsh needs to step down and Bird needs to transfer fulltime to the European division.

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    I wouldn't count us out of the draft just yet.

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Al isn't much different than he was here originally. His offense ha imporved a bit, but his defense has fallen off the map. He's still a black hole at times. What you see is what you get.

    I honestly think Al would serve us much better off the bench, but who knows how long it would be before the *****ing sets in.

    Hindsight is 20-20, but I have a feeling we're going to be regretting bringing him back. The exemption combined with Cro's contract would have probably netted us AI, and the draft pick we lost could end up being a player better than Al. I was okay with bringing Al back, but I really didn't want to give up that #1 to do it.

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    I don't think Harrington's inconsistency is entirely Harrington's fault. Frankly, he's more consistent than Granger. That should be a signal right there.

    Our team continues to have problems with understanding roles and having a team identity in general. This problem is not specific to any one player.

    As we are only half way through a re-build, our record and inconsistent play were not only foreseeable, they were completely expected from many of us. Generally, I would consider our team as slightly over-acheiving at this point. (Yeah, I said it. )

    I expect Harrington to have a much better season next year, because I expect the team to be a much more stable place to play.

    The only thing that worries me is the rumored "opt out" in JO's contract. It scares me when I have more patience than our star player.

    Al will never fully accept being a second fiddle to anyone. On a good team like the Spurs or Mavs, he would never work out because he'd want his minimum number of touches. He would probably be coming off the bench for about 15-18 minutes for those teams which would be entirely unacceptable to him.
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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    What? I don't think the exemption could have gotten us AI. And I don't think JO can opt out, not after this season anyway. I'm pretty sure I'm right with both of those... maybe not.
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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by ajbry View Post
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    Excellent post.

    Al has certainly not lived up to expectations. Sure, his stats might say otherwise, but we all are aware of what he can and cannot bring on the floor any given night. His reliance on perimeter shots is disconcerting, his defense has been lackluster to say the least, and his rebounding is awful. However, when he is getting touches, he's pretty much deadly - his shot in the Golden State game (prior to Jack's game winner obviously) was amazing - it was clutch, brilliant, and difficult. And, of course, he is a good-natured guy who is undoubtedly a solid presence in the locker room (except for the complaints to the media about his touches).

    I wholeheartedly agree that putting him with the 2nd unit (while still giving him 30+ MPG) would work out very well. Granger is reliable on both sides of the floor for the most part and does not demand the ball nearly as much as Al. Jack would be the bonafide #2 option on the starting unit, as he is used to. JO would most likely receive more touches, ideally in the post.

    If Al would accept a modified role to better suit the team, I'm all for him staying. However, if he cannot provide a more consistently valuable effort, we should definitely evaluate our options. Perhaps we could trade him for a PG.
    This scares me more than Al's inconsistency. Jack should NEVER be the #1 or #2 option in our offense, especially because he's doing fine right now with being the #3 or #4 option.
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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpolloloco View Post
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    This scares me more than Al's inconsistency. Jack should NEVER be the #1 or #2 option in our offense, especially because he's doing fine right now with being the #3 or #4 option.
    Jack is a good #2 option on a 7th or 8th seed that goes out in the 1st or second round of the playoffs. Not terrible, but not anywhere near contending for a championship. It depends on what your expectations are, really. I know this team can do that...and I want the team to do better...so if Jack is the #2 option, I agree...nothing better than second round is likely.

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    I'm getting really sick of people on this forum considering good play awful. I.E. "Tinsley is the worst point guard in the league," "Al Harrington is worthless," etc. People need to understand that just because a guy isn't an all star doesn't mean he is awful. I know a lot of people don't like to rely solely on stats, myself included, but here are Harrington's rankings among all NBA small fowards.
    PPG-15.8 - 11th
    Fg %- .459 - 6th
    3pt fg %- .460 - 5th
    Rpg- 6.2 - 5th
    Aside from only being a 70% free throw shooter and not blocking many shots he has been an above average player.
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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    I'm getting really sick of people on this forum considering good play awful. I.E. "Tinsley is the worst point guard in the league," "Al Harrington is worthless," etc. People need to understand that just because a guy isn't an all star doesn't mean he is awful. I know a lot of people don't like to rely solely on stats, myself included, but here are Harrington's rankings among all NBA small fowards.
    PPG-15.8 - 11th
    Fg %- .459 - 6th
    3pt fg %- .460 - 5th
    Rpg- 6.2 - 5th
    Aside from only being a 70% free throw shooter and not blocking many shots he has been an above average player.
    Tinsley is not the worst point guard in the league. Al Harrington is not worthless. However, if you want to be a contender for a championship, you have to look at the weak links. Foster, JO and even Jack are not the weakest links on the starting 5.

    Also, the expectation is not all-star level. You would probably have to be a top 3 or 4 scorer at SF to be considered for that. Al is not even close, and that's not even the biggest problem. The fact he cannot guard the position is creates major problems for other players attempting to help on D. His and Tinsley's weaknesses on D are a problem that needs to be resolved if you want a better Pacer team. I think that's all we really want here.

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Tinsley is not the worst point guard in the league. Al Harrington is not worthless. However, if you want to be a contender for a championship, you have to look at the weak links. Foster, JO and even Jack are not the weakest links on the starting 5.

    Also, the expectation is not all-star level. You would probably have to be a top 3 or 4 scorer at SF to be considered for that. Al is not even close, and that's not even the biggest problem. The fact he cannot guard the position is creates major problems for other players attempting to help on D. His and Tinsley's weaknesses on D are a problem that needs to be resolved if you want a better Pacer team. I think that's all we really want here.
    I don't really think that Harrington is a defensive liability. He surely isn't a great defender and does have some matchup problems, but again he just isn't a great defender.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    If you add up Al's steals, blocked shots, and assists for his career they add up to less than his PF. His rebounds are not of the hard fought in the paint variety. Regardless of how he is shooting he should pull down 6 rebounds a game minimally.

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    If you add up Al's steals, blocked shots, and assists for his career they add up to less than his PF.
    Same thing is true of Jeff Foster, should he be moved too.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    I don't really think that Harrington is a defensive liability. He surely isn't a great defender and does have some matchup problems, but again he just isn't a great defender.
    I guess it all depends on what you define to be a defensive liability.
    For sure, Al is better at guarding SF's than Tinsley is guarding any position on the floor. However, I do think Al is clearly...and I mean very very clearly...the second worst defender in the starting lineup. Al simply lacks the quickness, length and hops to guard the position....he certainly does not lack the attitude or effort, but he just cannot do it. Now, if Al was playing PF, he would not be as much of a liability on D.

    We have an alternative in DG at SF and it's just a matter of time. DG will not be our SG and will not be our PF...he will start at SF for the Pacers for a long time.

    Mark it down. Al Harrington will not be our starting SF next year.

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    Member Evan_The_Dude's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    I'm getting really sick of people on this forum considering good play awful. I.E. "Tinsley is the worst point guard in the league," "Al Harrington is worthless," etc. People need to understand that just because a guy isn't an all star doesn't mean he is awful. I know a lot of people don't like to rely solely on stats, myself included, but here are Harrington's rankings among all NBA small fowards.
    PPG-15.8 - 11th
    Fg %- .459 - 6th
    3pt fg %- .460 - 5th
    Rpg- 6.2 - 5th
    Aside from only being a 70% free throw shooter and not blocking many shots he has been an above average player.
    I don't think anybody [at least in this thread] said Al is worthless. He's not worthless, he just doesn't seem to fit in/have a definitive role with this team. If he hadn't developed a three-point shot, then I think things would be much uglier regarding his status with this team. Taking a rule from the "Statless" thread, try looking at Harrington without considering his numbers. You can't tell me he doesn't look completely lost out there.

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy View Post
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    I don't think anybody [at least in this thread] said Al is worthless. He's not worthless, he just doesn't seem to fit in/have a definitive role with this team. If he hadn't developed a three-point shot, then I think things would be much uglier regarding his status with this team. Taking a rule from the "Statless" thread, try looking at Harrington without considering his numbers. You can't tell me he doesn't look completely lost out there.
    A couple of people have referred to Harrington as "worthless" in various threads, but thats beyond the point. I honestly don't think that Harrington looks completely lost out there. I truly believe he looks like any decent NBA player. He has had a few real tough games this year, but overall, no, I don't think he looks anywhere near lost.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by indy0731 View Post
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    I really think that Al is still a sixth man in this league or the 4th option on a good team. Maybe a starter or first or second option on a team like IDK the Hawks say, but on a team fighting for a playoff position he is a problem being your second offensive option. I feel more comfortable with Jack or Tins having the ball offensively to be honest.

    Except for the reference to Jack in the last sentence in the above quote, this statement is true for both AL and SJax. From day one, I was not happy when they got Sjackson for AL Harrington and when they brought back AL.


    He is a weak *** rebounder (that play in which he did not box out Josh Howard was ridiculous at the end of the Dallas game in Inidana)) and is just a microcosm of what we will be seeing from Al in the years to come.

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    Default Re: A Realistic Discussion about Al Harrington

    Quote Originally Posted by pacerwaala View Post
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    Except for the reference to Jack in the last sentence in the above quote, this statement is true for both AL and SJax. From day one, I was not happy when they got Sjackson for AL Harrington and when they brought back AL.


    He is a weak *** rebounder (that play in which he did not box out Josh Howard was ridiculous at the end of the Dallas game in Inidana)) and is just a microcosm of what we will be seeing from Al in the years to come.
    No one blocked out on that play. There were three pacers at the basket and no one blocked out. Its a problem with this entire team. Harrington should not take the blame for that.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

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