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Thread: Cheating

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    All,

    It seems to me that we're dealing with semantics here. I certainly agree that officiating plays a role in every outcome, just as a variety of other factors come into play. Whie I infer that several fans believe otherwise, my position is that I've never seen officiating as the sole determining factor in an outcome.

    On a related note, how come very few (if any) of you ever seem to remember the blatant calls that go in Indiana's favor?

    MJB
    Oh, we've gotten the benefit of some calls, no doubt.

    Reggie's banked in 3-pointer over NJ after the buzzer in '02.
    Reggie's push off of Jordan for the game winner in '98.
    Reggie's push off of Starks for the game winner in '95.

    But all those teams were evil, so it's all good.

    I won't deny the Pacers get some calls, but reaming a team with blatantly bad phantom/missed calls over and over and over again over the course of a game is completely unacceptable.

    The refs can't give a team every call, but they can give them an unhealthy advantage/disadvantage due to a barrage of bad ones. My emphasis goes beyond simple missed calls, and is more focused on the ones that are blatantly biased.

    One example would be Dwayne Wade. How many phantom calls did the Heat get in their favor during last season's playoffs due to Wade, especially in the Finals? That's completely unfair, and you can't convince me all of those were simply "missed calls." If the game is moving that fast for them, then we need more refs on the floor.

  2. #102

    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    Roferr,

    No offense taken. I didn't mean to imply that I hadn't seen any games that weren't impacted by officiating. Every game has that element to it, but I stand by my statement that I've never seen a game decided by the officials.

    Ever. And I've seen the majority of those 1600+ games from courtside, which offers a pretty clear observation point.

    MJB
    I find that to be an incredible asertion from someone who has been at courtside for 1600 games. The difference between impacted and decided certainly seems very fuzzy to me. A guy getting two or three quick fouls so he sits out a half doesn't ever decide a game only impacts it? A star getting all the "fouls" only impacts a game. A rookie getting ridiculous fouls in just a few minutes only impacts? I guess impacts and decides is in the mind of the beholder.

  3. #103

    Default Re: Cheating

    Speaskout,

    The examples you cite would certainly have an impact on a game. However, why do you assume (to use your example) that a player picking up 2-3 quick fouls is necessarily attributable to an officials decision? Is it not possible that the player actually committed those fouls and has, through his own actions, rendered himself unavailable?

    MJB

  4. #104

    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    Speaskout,

    The examples you cite would certainly have an impact on a game. However, why do you assume (to use your example) that a player picking up 2-3 quick fouls is necessarily attributable to an officials decision? Is it not possible that the player actually committed those fouls and has, through his own actions, rendered himself unavailable?

    MJB
    Sometimes refs set a tone and call a couple of quick fouls to make a point. So the example is justified even if the offender has committed very tick-tack fouls. A foul isn't always a foul. It depends on the ref, his mood, the particular quarter, what he saw or didn't see, etc. You ever see a ref ask another ref his opinion on a call? You'll see that maybe once a year. You ever see a ref try to over rule another ref becasue he had a better view? Only in football do they really try to get it right. The umpires, linesmen, ref actually talk to each other.

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    Speaskout,

    The examples you cite would certainly have an impact on a game. However, why do you assume (to use your example) that a player picking up 2-3 quick fouls is necessarily attributable to an officials decision? Is it not possible that the player actually committed those fouls and has, through his own actions, rendered himself unavailable?

    MJB
    Not in Rik Smit's case. He could get knocked into the 3rd row by Shaq and it would be a foul on Rik. He could step completely to the side when Shaq lowers his shoulder and goes to the basket, misses Smit altogether, falls on his assss and a foul is called on Rik. Two quick fouls and Rik's on the bench for 20 minutes of the first half. Rik got called for the most phantom fouls than any other player of his status.

    Harrison comes close to the number and quickness of fouls but he's no where near Rik's status when it comes to elite centers.
    .

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by Roferr View Post
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    Not in Rik Smit's case. He could get knocked into the 3rd row by Shaq and it would be a foul on Rik. He could step completely to the side when Shaq lowers his shoulder and goes to the basket, misses Smit altogether, falls on his assss and a foul is called on Rik. Two quick fouls and Rik's on the bench for 20 minutes of the first half. Rik got called for the most phantom fouls than any other player of his status.

    Harrison comes close to the number and quickness of fouls but he's no where near Rik's status when it comes to elite centers.
    I agree 100% with you about Shaq getting away with a whole lot of crap (how many times did we hear the announcers make the excuse for the refs "Shaq is one of the hardest players to officiate") but you lost all credibility when you mentioned Harrisons name Harrison brings a lot of that upon himself by not keeping his mouth shut.

    Mr.Boyle,

    Since we are on this ever so touch topic, I have to ask you about a conversation that happened in the Nets-Lakers finals a few years back. A few people heard the head referee at the time (I cant remember his name) during a TV timeout remind his 2 other ref's that "O Neal (refering to Shaq) has 5 fouls, lets keep that in mind" or something to the effect.

    I will admit when I first heard that rumor I thought it was bogus, but as several people went back on VCR's/TIVO they were able to read lips and see the same exact thing. I even seem to recall ESPN picking a story up on this topic.

    Does that not conern you in the least?

  7. #107
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    No Don, Tins get in these ZONES and it usually costs us. He doesn't seem to learn from them.
    Yup! Old news really. This has really started happenning about two years ago just after the brawl when he had to take leadership and more responsibility. The years before he would have a few moments completely dominating the ball, but after the brawl he had to and since he just does it a lot more regularly. The bad thing, offcourse, is that he doesn't need to do this currently, worse, it's counterproductive now .

    I must say that Tins seemed to have a very good first half and he played quite good. It's in the 4th quarter that I am not very happy with his decision-making, one-on-ones, etc. I dunno about this game. I think the team played very good and well in two games we did give the Mavericks good to very good opposition. I'm not a fan of Tins (anymore), but to blame this loss on here is overlooking the play/contributions of others maybe and those "others" aren't the referees btw.

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  8. #108
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Mr. Boyle

    Come on you KNOW Wade was gettin phantoms in the Finals last year. And LBJ traveled against us (Wizards) for those game winners right?

    Yes I'm still hung up on those calls.
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  9. #109
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    Mr. Boyle

    Come on you KNOW Wade was gettin phantoms in the Finals last year. And LBJ traveled against us (Wizards) for those game winners right?

    Yes I'm still hung up on those calls.

    I still do not see half of the "phanton" calls on Wade that many people here complain about.

    As for Lebron, yes he did travel. Then again, if Gill would just learn to not let Bron get in his head and hit his free throws .............

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    I agree 100% with you about Shaq getting away with a whole lot of crap (how many times did we hear the announcers make the excuse for the refs "Shaq is one of the hardest players to officiate") but you lost all credibility when you mentioned Harrisons name Harrison brings a lot of that upon himself by not keeping his mouth shut.

    Mr.Boyle,

    Since we are on this ever so touch topic, I have to ask you about a conversation that happened in the Nets-Lakers finals a few years back. A few people heard the head referee at the time (I cant remember his name) during a TV timeout remind his 2 other ref's that "O Neal (refering to Shaq) has 5 fouls, lets keep that in mind" or something to the effect.

    I will admit when I first heard that rumor I thought it was bogus, but as several people went back on VCR's/TIVO they were able to read lips and see the same exact thing. I even seem to recall ESPN picking a story up on this topic.

    Does that not conern you in the least?
    I haven't really heard that one but I have one that I witnessed on TV. MJ picked up his 5th foul (game on national tv), and he goes to the ref and holds up five fingers and you could see him mouth "that's five". Needless to say, he didn't foul out in a very roughly played game. The type of game he and Pippen would mug players to steal the ball.
    .

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Cheating

    [QUOTE=vapacersfan;528188]I agree 100% with you about Shaq getting away with a whole lot of crap (how many times did we hear the announcers make the excuse for the refs "Shaq is one of the hardest players to officiate") but you lost all credibility when you mentioned Harrisons name Harrison brings a lot of that upon himself by not keeping his mouth shut.
    ____________________________________________

    Harrison does get mouthy and shows a lot of disdain in his face that the refs don't appreciate but he gets a lot of phantom calls called against him. He should realize that he is a "newbie" and that fouls aren't going his way. This was not the case with Rik. I wasn't trying to pigeon hole them, just making a note about "phantom calls".
    .

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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    I still do not see half of the "phanton" calls on Wade that many people here complain about.
    find the tapes and re-watch them. He is literally barely touched on 80% of those fouls.

    As for Lebron, yes he did travel. Then again, if Gill would just learn to not let Bron get in his head and hit his free throws .............
    Gil wouldn't have had to hit those ft's if David Stern didn;t have a man crush on LeBron.
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  13. #113
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    find the tapes and re-watch them. He is literally barely touched on 80% of those fouls.



    Gil wouldn't have had to hit those ft's if David Stern didn;t have a man crush on LeBron.
    I just got a new DVR (I love comcast) so I lost all my saved stuff, but I think your 80% is quite exaderated.

    As for Lebron, I wont argue with you on Stern having a man crush. Of course, Gill could have helped that by hitting those free throws and ignoring the sweet nothings Lebron whispered in his ear

  14. #114
    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    All,

    It seems to me that we're dealing with semantics here. I certainly agree that officiating plays a role in every outcome, just as a variety of other factors come into play. Whie I infer that several fans believe otherwise, my position is that I've never seen officiating as the sole determining factor in an outcome.

    On a related note, how come very few (if any) of you ever seem to remember the blatant calls that go in Indiana's favor?

    MJB
    I seem to remember one of the worst offensive fouls of all time on no less than the best player of all time go uncalled as our boy Reggie iced the game winner and ran down the court to spin in circles for five minutes.

    Clearly, Stern mandated that the refs keep their whistles in their pockets so that he could get the marquee Utah/Indiana Finals matchup that he so badly desired.

    I personally think all this conspiracy stuff is ridiculous. Everyone complains about NBA officiating. Well, I've seen very few well officiated in the NCAA, in high school, in AAU, in the YMCA, in men's league, in pick-up or in elementary school.

    Basketball is just a hard game to officiate. Few can do it consistently well on any level. Add NBA speed, athleticism and physicality and it just makes a very hard thing to do a lot more difficult.

    As to why they continue to use grandfatherly-looking, 65-year-old men to try and do this...Well that's a whole different debate.
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    I just got a new DVR (I love comcast) so I lost all my saved stuff, but I think your 80% is quite exaderated.
    you may be right - 75%

    As for Lebron, I wont argue with you on Stern having a man crush. Of course, Gill could have helped that by hitting those free throws and ignoring the sweet nothings Lebron whispered in his ear
    see us this year!!!
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    you may be right - 75%



    see us this year!!!
    More like 1%, maybe 2 or 3%.....

    Well see about this year.....

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    All,

    It seems to me that we're dealing with semantics here. I certainly agree that officiating plays a role in every outcome, just as a variety of other factors come into play. Whie I infer that several fans believe otherwise, my position is that I've never seen officiating as the sole determining factor in an outcome.

    On a related note, how come very few (if any) of you ever seem to remember the blatant calls that go in Indiana's favor?

    MJB
    I do, and I'm embarrassed when it happens. Without a doubt they do benefit from some pretty awful calls going their way. When I see bad calls either way I consider it a poorly officiated game and a disservice to me if I've paid to see the game.

    But I also dislike when the Pacers beat a team playing terrible basketball if I bought a ticket. I came to see the sport played and officiated well and fairly, understanding that some mistakes are natural of course.

    Most nights the officials are fine, but sometimes they do blow calls. Again, my typical concern is what type of game the refs establish rather than are the Pacers getting ripped off. Usually the breaks fall even both ways which makes that a non issue, but if they are playing a low talent team and the refs are letting EVERYONE smack and bump it removes their finesse advantage (for example).



    Now if it was a competition between the official and the average courtside Pacers fan, the official would destroy them in terms of accuracy, even on a bad night.

    I seem to remember one of the worst offensive fouls of all time on no less than the best player of all time go uncalled as our boy Reggie iced the game winner and ran down the court to spin in circles for five minutes.
    Jay, what about a certain night in NY and a shove to the back that went uncalled as well. But then again wasn't there an intentional foul call (2 FTs and the ball) that went their way that year or the year after...Harper maybe being the guy fouled?

    BTW, I don't totally buy the "star treatment/rookie" thing. Stars are more talented, quicker, smarter, etc. That's how they became stars. They tend to avoid contact better and make better choices. For all the talk of Harrison getting no calls, if you've watched him live and down close you see a bull in a china shop most of the time. He's slow and clumsy most of the time, and far too willing to defend with his hands (which ends up slapping the arm or elbow).

    That's why his fouling stayed the same while Granger (a year behind him in NBA experience) saw his fouls per minute drop like a rock after a month or two. Players just get better, that's a big part of the equation. Much more than "the refs have to learn their game" and way, way more than "the refs give them preferrential treatment".

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Cheating

    To follow up that final thought just consider this:

    Magically they invent a PERFECT foul calling machine that takes over officiating NBA games. Is it not possible, even likely, that a far more talented team will kill the other team in terms of foul calls? At some point lesser players DO FOUL MORE, just like they miss shots, don't control the ball as well, run as fast, jump as high, and so on.

    So when we see games that everyone is talking about all the foul calls going for one team, is it because it's bias or because that team is just outplaying the other?

    Wade caught some breaks in the finals to be sure, but he also attacked the rim without mercy and was able to get by the perimeter defense with some quick dribble moves.

    Sometimes that foul discrepency creates a focus on the refs when maybe it should be on the players instead.

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Cheating

    I have heard many people try to explain away the whole “star treatment”

    I have seen plenty of stars get away with 10X as much more stuff then any other player, and it was not just because he was more talented.

  20. #120
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    Smile Re: Cheating

    One has to allow for the entertainment aspect of the NBA in order to understand that it isn't always about the game. Fans are not going to shell out big bucks to attend these games if the star players on these teams get into foul trouble and spend half of the game sitting on the bench in warmup outfits. Once Jordan established himself as a superstar, how many times did he foul out, or even ride the pines for any extended period of time? This preferantial treatment is extended to all of the supertars of the game, and to think other wise is really the same type of thinking that people that watch pro wrestling have. People who believe that the star attractions on these teams don't receive special treatment, probably still believe in Santa Claus.

  21. #121
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by Dat Dude View Post
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    The one when JO jumped away from Dirk and didnt even SNIFF him and got called for a shooting foul, should put one of these refs on trial for something.
    Judging from your pic (Tom Brady) never discuss officials' being bias ever again on this board...

  22. #122
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerPerspective View Post
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    Judging from your pic (Tom Brady) never discuss officials' being bias ever again on this board...
    I will discuss what I want when I want.

  23. #123
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerPerspective View Post
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    Judging from your pic (Tom Brady) never discuss officials' being bias ever again on this board...
    The Tuck rule was called correctly...Take that mess to the Colts board.
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  24. #124
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    Default Re: Cheating

    I want anybody who is watching today game (NYK, 1-20-06) and tell me these refs are compotent!

    How in the is Violet still a NBA ref.

    I am not even kidding. She is by far the WORST ref in the NBA.

    Go ahead, someone defend her missing a call that happened right in front of her. She saw a Knicks player hold the ball OUT OF BOUNDS while he is on JO's arm, and she points Pacers ball. Then she changes her mind and decides to give it to the Knicks.

    I am dying to hear someone defend her?

    I can cut these guys (and gals) some slack. It is a very tough job. The problem is she sucks night in and night out.

    I have no problem with females refs. Hell, I think its great the NBA wants female refs. Just get COMPOTENT female refs.
    _____________________

    Granger gets TACKLED at the end of the 3rd. Q did not touch the rock. He got all of Dannys arm.

    I cant wait to hear about how good these NBA refs are.

  25. #125
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    Default Re: Cheating

    VIolet Palmer is the worst ref in the NBA.

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