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Thread: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    Forum Wrong, But Not O’Neal’s Message

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/web_070108.html

    Jan. 8, 2007

    You can argue the forum and the timing. Give me a few paragraphs, in fact, and that's just what I'll do.
    In essence, however, Jermaine O'Neal's postgame remarks after the loss in Dallas Thursday night pretty well summed up the general feeling of those in Pacers Nation. The team should be better than this. There's no excuse for the series of losses to inferior opponents. We're not really sure what the problem is but we know something's not right and we're not sure how to fix it, which only amplifies the frustration.

    It wasn't a veiled trade demand, or a threat that changes must be made, or else. It was a sincere expression of emotion by a player who carries the weight of the franchise on his shoulders. I love a good debate but, having read and re-read O'Neal's quotes in Saturday's Indianapolis Star, I can't find a point to argue.

    Apparently, neither can his teammates.

    "He's right," said Al Harrington after the Pacers won 100-93 in Oklahoma City Saturday night. "None of us should accept average. That should be the team's thoughts, collectively. We've got to play much better because we're a better team than what we're showing. We have to find a way to be consistent."

    The thing is this: there's a sense of unease that O'Neal went public, rather than (or in addition to) dealing with this behind closed doors. You would prefer this grievance be aired within the locker room where such open, honest discussion could, or should, be more productive. The Pacers constantly talk about how much they like each other and how good the chemistry is, but chemistry is revealed by what you do, not what you say. And the inconsistent actions of this team have spoken much louder than their words. Maybe O'Neal has tried talking this out with his teammates. We know he already tried the closed-door route with management and the coaching staff in Boston.

    So if going public is his greatest misjudgment, it's one that can be forgiven.

    No one on the roster has walked the walk more than O'Neal this season. He has played consistently hard at both ends of the floor. Assists, blocked shots and charges taken are up. Turnovers and bad decisions are down. Because of his commitment to the total game, O'Neal is playing the best basketball of his life.

    Regardless of where or how he said it, the truth can't be denied. We all see what O'Neal sees: the door in the East is wide open but the Pacers won't walk through until they stop tripping on their shoelaces. Maybe the overriding message he was trying to send was that this team's tune needs to change. No more lyrics by Bobby McFerrin. It's time to get real.


    PLAYER OF THE WEEK
    Harrington appears to be finding much more of a comfort level in his on-court relationship with O'Neal, as both players scored at least 20 points in consecutive games. Harrington was just a bit hotter, though, totaling 51 points (a 25.5 average) and 16 rebounds (8.0) in two games last week while shooting 18-of-26 from the field (.692) and 5-of-8 from the arc (.625).
    GAME OF THE WEEK
    There were only two choices and neither was exactly a classic. The Pacers probably played a better overall game in Dallas, at least until their fourth-quarter fade led to a 100-91 loss. But they did what was necessary to survive a strong-willed performance from the undermanned Hornets Saturday in Oklahoma City. With Desmond Mason throwing in horse shots from all sorts of odd angles, the Hornets played an inspired game and were tied, 83-all, with 4:24 left. This despite the absence of their three top scorers, Chris Paul, Peja Stojakovic and David West. But O'Neal scored twice in a row inside and the Pacers did not relinquish control thereafter in a 100-93 victory.
    STAT OF THE WEEK
    Orien Greene might've needed an oxygen mask after his 5-minute, 40-second stint against the Hornets. In fully six of his 12 appearances this season, Greene has played less than a minute. He's made cameos of 1, 2, 10, 11, 26 and 54 seconds.
    QUOTE OF THE WEEK
    If you didn't read O'Neal's post-Dallas comments, here's the key quote. "If I can't take this team to another level, I truthfully believe we should go our separate ways at the end of the season," O'Neal said. "I'm saying in general, the bottom line is you play to win. If we don't have a system set to win a championship, if we don't have the crew to win a championship, then what are we doing? I'm getting to the point, I'm in my 11th year, I don't want to play 82 games and then exit to watch somebody else pop the champagne. … I'm tired of that. I want to compete for a championship. If we can't do it, that's a whole (different) story."
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    I think this has to raise the question "Can JO do wrong?"

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    There can't possibly be anyone more frustrated than Kevin Garnett but where are the articles on him expressing his frustration. Garnett has the maturity JO doesn't have.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/web_070108.html

    Jan. 8, 2007

    You can argue the forum and the timing. Give me a few paragraphs, in fact, and that's just what I'll do.
    In essence, however, Jermaine O'Neal's postgame remarks after the loss in Dallas Thursday night pretty well summed up the general feeling of those in Pacers Nation. The team should be better than this. There's no excuse for the series of losses to inferior opponents. We're not really sure what the problem is but we know something's not right and we're not sure how to fix it, which only amplifies the frustration......
    And that's where I quit reading.

    Okay, not really, but I might as well have. I think a vast majority of us feel that until we trade Jackson and Tinsley, there will continue to be a certain...ah, mentality to the team. No matter who we get as role players this team is still being led by a core fo guys who have been the foundation of our problems. Certain players can foster a certain atmosphere for a team and steadfastly maintain that until those two are gone, we'll see more of the same.

    I've lumped JO with those two in the past, but I'll give him props. He finally shut up and started just playing. And not shying away from contact like he's done previously.

    Yeah, something's wrong all right and I think a lot of us know what it is.
    Hey! What're you kicking me for? You want me to ask? All right, I'll ask! Ma'am, where do the high school girls hang out in this town?

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech View Post
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    And that's where I quit reading.

    Okay, not really, but I might as well have. I think a vast majority of us feel that until we trade Jackson and Tinsley, there will continue to be a certain...ah, mentality to the team. No matter who we get as role players this team is still being led by a core fo guys who have been the foundation of our problems. Certain players can foster a certain atmosphere for a team and steadfastly maintain that until those two are gone, we'll see more of the same.

    I've lumped JO with those two in the past, but I'll give him props. He finally shut up and started just playing. And not shying away from contact like he's done previously.

    Yeah, something's wrong all right and I think a lot of us know what it is.
    Partially I agree with you, ratio tells me to do so, but on the other hand.....

    Jax; I've given up, I never wanted him and warned about a lot of things from before the trade became final over 2 years ago and nothing has changed in the mean time.
    I issued likewise warnings with the Al trade, but seeing as he's JO's buddy he has some chance of success.

    Now Tinsley has me in a bind, because of several reasons, as I explained in an earlier post, like you and others, I am a Pacers fan first, but while those players are on my team I support them, even against my better knowledge in, yes even Jax.
    Tins however showed promise, and still at times shows what he "can" do.
    He is not the most irresponsible player we have, and even if he might light a J now and then, heck what era did you grow up?

    Yes his "trip" with Jax (and let's not forget Quis who was there to) has hurt his reputation even more, but I still see the guy who is married, loves his kid, (that picture of him and his son on the bench was certainly heartwarming) doesn't seem to have any "home" affairs as in he's seemingly not beating up his wife, doesn't have 2 or more ex-wives and a half dozen children all over the place, comes to work and seemingly makes amence of his previously missed games by trying to be playing all 82 this season.

    Now did he lose his touch, his skills in the process? I can hardly imagine that.
    Am I (only) blaming others, no not exclusively, but partially yes.

    Are his stats always telling, most certainly most nights not.

    I would love to see him under a different coach, or different regime? because I am not so sure he's a lockerroom cancer or "me-first" player unlike for instance Al who seems to worry more about his stats then playing D.

    There is more twixth heaven and earth then just "bad behaviour" imo and I do sincerely think that Tins and Rick are simply not an ideal combo.

    One thing in the article stands out a mile though, the mouthpiece is admitting that he (JO) was right, be it that the forum could've been chosen better.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech View Post
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    And that's where I quit reading.

    Okay, not really, but I might as well have. I think a vast majority of us feel that until we trade Jackson and Tinsley, there will continue to be a certain...ah, mentality to the team. No matter who we get as role players this team is still being led by a core fo guys who have been the foundation of our problems. Certain players can foster a certain atmosphere for a team and steadfastly maintain that until those two are gone, we'll see more of the same.

    I've lumped JO with those two in the past, but I'll give him props. He finally shut up and started just playing. And not shying away from contact like he's done previously.

    Yeah, something's wrong all right and I think a lot of us know what it is.
    I agree, but maybe not Jackson although keep in mind that I'm not a fan of his at all. It would have to start with who leads the team while on the floor. Who does the team take their cues from? Tinsley. When he's having a bad game then the team could take from that and follow suit IMO. It starts with the leader on the floor IMO. that's the biggest ho hum guy on this team right now.

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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/web_070108.html

    Jan. 8, 2007


    You can argue the forum and the timing. Give me a few paragraphs, in fact, and that's just what I'll do.
    In essence, however, Jermaine O'Neal's postgame remarks after the loss in Dallas Thursday night pretty well summed up the general feeling of those in Pacers Nation. The team should be better than this. There's no excuse for the series of losses to inferior opponents. We're not really sure what the problem is but we know something's not right and we're not sure how to fix it, which only amplifies the frustration.

    It wasn't a veiled trade demand, or a threat that changes must be made, or else. It was a sincere expression of emotion by a player who carries the weight of the franchise on his shoulders. I love a good debate but, having read and re-read O'Neal's quotes in Saturday's Indianapolis Star, I can't find a point to argue.

    Apparently, neither can his teammates.

    "He's right," said Al Harrington after the Pacers won 100-93 in Oklahoma City Saturday night. "None of us should accept average. That should be the team's thoughts, collectively. We've got to play much better because we're a better team than what we're showing. We have to find a way to be consistent."

    The thing is this: there's a sense of unease that O'Neal went public, rather than (or in addition to) dealing with this behind closed doors. You would prefer this grievance be aired within the locker room where such open, honest discussion could, or should, be more productive. The Pacers constantly talk about how much they like each other and how good the chemistry is, but chemistry is revealed by what you do, not what you say. And the inconsistent actions of this team have spoken much louder than their words. Maybe O'Neal has tried talking this out with his teammates. We know he already tried the closed-door route with management and the coaching staff in Boston.

    So if going public is his greatest misjudgment, it's one that can be forgiven.

    No one on the roster has walked the walk more than O'Neal this season. He has played consistently hard at both ends of the floor. Assists, blocked shots and charges taken are up. Turnovers and bad decisions are down. Because of his commitment to the total game, O'Neal is playing the best basketball of his life.

    Regardless of where or how he said it, the truth can't be denied. We all see what O'Neal sees: the door in the East is wide open but the Pacers won't walk through until they stop tripping on their shoelaces. Maybe the overriding message he was trying to send was that this team's tune needs to change. No more lyrics by Bobby McFerrin. It's time to get real.



    PLAYER OF THE WEEK

    Harrington appears to be finding much more of a comfort level in his on-court relationship with O'Neal, as both players scored at least 20 points in consecutive games. Harrington was just a bit hotter, though, totaling 51 points (a 25.5 average) and 16 rebounds (8.0) in two games last week while shooting 18-of-26 from the field (.692) and 5-of-8 from the arc (.625).
    GAME OF THE WEEK

    There were only two choices and neither was exactly a classic. The Pacers probably played a better overall game in Dallas, at least until their fourth-quarter fade led to a 100-91 loss. But they did what was necessary to survive a strong-willed performance from the undermanned Hornets Saturday in Oklahoma City. With Desmond Mason throwing in horse shots from all sorts of odd angles, the Hornets played an inspired game and were tied, 83-all, with 4:24 left. This despite the absence of their three top scorers, Chris Paul, Peja Stojakovic and David West. But O'Neal scored twice in a row inside and the Pacers did not relinquish control thereafter in a 100-93 victory.
    STAT OF THE WEEK

    Orien Greene might've needed an oxygen mask after his 5-minute, 40-second stint against the Hornets. In fully six of his 12 appearances this season, Greene has played less than a minute. He's made cameos of 1, 2, 10, 11, 26 and 54 seconds.
    QUOTE OF THE WEEK
    If you didn't read O'Neal's post-Dallas comments, here's the key quote. "If I can't take this team to another level, I truthfully believe we should go our separate ways at the end of the season," O'Neal said. "I'm saying in general, the bottom line is you play to win. If we don't have a system set to win a championship, if we don't have the crew to win a championship, then what are we doing? I'm getting to the point, I'm in my 11th year, I don't want to play 82 games and then exit to watch somebody else pop the champagne. Ö I'm tired of that. I want to compete for a championship. If we can't do it, that's a whole (different) story."




    It wasn't a veiled trade demand, or a threat that changes must be made, or else. It was a sincere expression of emotion by a player who carries the weight of the franchise on his shoulders. I love a good debate but, having read and re-read O'Neal's quotes in Saturday's Indianapolis Star, I can't find a point to arguee

    Forum Right, message right. What better forum could you have than the media, when you want to get your message out? Jay do you know JO well enough to make the analysis that JO is only venting and he really didn't mean what he said? His words are crystal clear, he knows this current Pacer team is going nowhere and he wants changes or he is out of here. I don't think that you can say that he made these comments out of a frustrating loss, they were made in the context of playing on a mediocre team that will never win the title or even challenge for it. When a player wants to be traded, going to the media with it guarantees it.ie Artest, Iverson etc.

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    Quote Originally Posted by ALF68 View Post
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    When a player wants to be traded, going to the media with it guarantees it.ie Artest, Iverson etc.
    Now there's a couple of guys I would want my name thrown in with. Woo-hoo!
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    If only we had Cro to call out the leadership to the press. Now there would be leadership.

    Seriously, those feed up with JO are going to hate what ever he says (and it works the other way too).

    I'm glad JO isn't content with the way we are playing and that he doesn't consider making the playoffs a success. In fact I think what JO is saying is very simillar to his critics--if he won't be a part of bringing us a championship we should trade him.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    Quote Originally Posted by ALF68 View Post
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    Jay do you know JO well enough to make the analysis that JO is only venting and he really didn't mean what he said? His words are crystal clear, he knows this current Pacer team is going nowhere and he wants changes or he is out of here. I don't think that you can say that he made these comments out of a frustrating loss, they were made in the context of playing on a mediocre team that will never win the title or even challenge for it. When a player wants to be traded, going to the media with it guarantees it.ie Artest, Iverson etc.
    Not sure why I'm called out here - I haven't commented at all on JO's recent quotes.

    I don't see anything controversial in them... he repeated what he said last summer, that if he isn't leading this team to greatness that perhaps its in everyone's best interest to part way. Meanwhile, he's been playing great basketball at both ends of the court, and he isn't getting much help from anyone on a consistent basis and that has a lot to do with why this is basically a 0.500 team.

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays
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    There can't possibly be anyone more frustrated than Kevin Garnett but where are the articles on him expressing his frustration. Garnett has the maturity JO doesn't have.
    http://www.startribune.com/511/story/919055.html
    Last update: January 06, 2007 – 12:15 AM
    Garnett remains focused on winning with current crew

    By Kent Youngblood, Star Tribune

    Once again, Kevin Garnett said, he doesn't think about "what if?"

    Garnett was talking with members of the media after the morning shootaround on Friday, hours before the Timberwolves were to play host to a Philadelphia team that no longer includes Allen Iverson.

    It was as good a time as any to revive the topic of the Iverson trade sweepstakes, a contest that the Timberwolves tried to be a part of but ultimately were not. Garnett, who openly campaigned for bringing Iverson to Minnesota, was asked by a Philadelphia reporter if he was disappointed when Iverson was dealt to the Denver Nuggets.

    "If you want to call it a campaign, everybody jumped on it," Garnett said. "So, obviously, when he went to Denver, it's what it was."

    Garnett said he never let himself think about what it would be like to play with Iverson.

    "Here you have to wait for things to happen, then adjust to that," Garnett said. "When they say it's going to snow, don't jump in the SUV just so soon. Stay in the coupe till you see flurries."

    Speaking of staying in the "coop," conjecture on Garnett's future in Minnesota figures to continue. Friday's game with Philadelphia seemed like a perfect time to bring that up again.

    So, Kevin, do you ever give thought to what it would be like to play with the type of supporting cast Iverson inherited when he went to the Nuggets?

    "Do I allow myself to think that way? No," Garnett said. "This is my reality, and I deal with it every day. Not to say it's a good or bad situation, I'm not the one to be *****ing and moaning about things. I come out and I compete and I play. And I handle those things accordingly, when it's time to address those things."

    And the middle of the regular season is not the time.

    "I feel in a good place," Garnett said. "There is no need for distractions right now. If anything, we should be focusing a little more. It's January. February is right around the corner. Before you know it, it's going to be the All-Star break. That's when all the wheels need to be turning."

    Still, it wasn't too long ago when the idea of Iverson playing anywhere but Philadelphia would have seemed impossible.

    "Nothing is guaranteed," Garnett said. "You'd think our troops would be home by now. But ... that's a whole 'nother issue. Anything is possible."
    Thinking ahead

    Wolves coach Dwane Casey said he doesn't waste time wondering what might have been, in terms of a trade.

    "Not any more," he said. "When it was all going down it was like you didn't know what was going to happen. But not any more. The guys we have here now are coming together, pulling together."

    Brown back in Philly

    The 76ers made an announcement after the 104-102 overtime loss to the Wolves, saying former coach Larry Brown is returning to the team as executive vice president.

    Brown, who coached Iverson and the 76ers to the NBA Finals in 2001, was fired last summer after going 23-59 in his one season as New York Knicks coach.

    Etc.

    • Speaking of the All-Star break, Garnett is still on the fast track to the Western Conference starting lineup. The latest voting returns have Garnett still No. 1 among conference forwards. Garnett, who has made nine consecutive All-Star appearances, has been voted a Western Conference starter seven times.

    • Wolves swingman Marko Jaric returned to action after an MRI on his injured right thumb showed only a sprain.

    Kent Youngblood • kyoungblood@startribune.com
    ©2007 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.
    So your choices are JO voicing frustration of KG accepting mediocrity? I'd rather have JO speak up and say, "These things aren't acceptable" - it doesn't seem his coach or management is doing it so why not?, than to just ride it out because it appears to me Garnett is willing to coast.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  11. #11
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    What? The forum's NEVER wrong... we're ALWAYS RIGHT!

    Oh, you meant that other forum.
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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ALF68
    Jay do you know JO well enough to make the analysis that JO is only venting and he really didn't mean what he said? His words are crystal clear, he knows this current Pacer team is going nowhere and he wants changes or he is out of here. I don't think that you can say that he made these comments out of a frustrating loss, they were made in the context of playing on a mediocre team that will never win the title or even challenge for it. When a player wants to be traded, going to the media with it guarantees it.ie Artest, Iverson etc.

    Not sure why I'm called out here - I haven't commented at all on JO's recent quotes.

    My bad Jay, I meant Able.
    I do however disagree with your take on JO's comments, for the same reasons that I stated above.

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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    What? The forum's NEVER wrong... we're ALWAYS RIGHT!

    Oh, you meant that other forum.
    Actually, by "Forum wrong" I think he meant JO should've said it in the Shout Box. Maybe we can have a mod move him........
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

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    Default Re: Forum Wrong, But Not OíNealís Message

    As a Cavet I am a JO fan so I'm probably biased a little so...

    I think most fans ect should focus on what IMO JO's point is.... If this team does not show real progress real soon(this year into next) in being a "true" contender. Then TPTB need to rethink their plans and use JO as a trade bait to change it's course. This is something that is regularly talked about in this forum trade JO now while he still has some value and build the team around Granger/Williams and some unknown young stud.

    To me JO is making a point that he doesn't want this franchise to go the same way as Minny and Garnett... no real hope in sight or just hoping for a miricle...

    thus even though I am worried about the specific wording because yes it does sound like a trade demand, I do perfer this type of response, he wants the team he plays for to be challenging for the title too the one from Garnett who seemed resigned to play out his career in Minny with a team that is never considered a top contender...
    You didn't think it was gonna be that easy, did you? ..... You know, for a second there, yeah, I kinda did.....
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