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Thread: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

  1. #1
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    The mantra is that it's hard for a sporting franchise to survive, let along thrive, in a small market. Several have mentioned how a team like the Pacers needs to be conservative (or even extra conservative) with their moves because they can't risk being a lottery team whether by accident (bad and/or quick moves) or by blowing up the team and rebuilding from scratch).

    There has been a recent spate of postings defending players against certain criticisms by pointing out that what some may be seeing (and not liking) is by design (not a player failing per se'). This would be questions like whether Carlisle wants Tinsley to be a shoot-first PG or whether he's just making bad decisions. It would be questions about whether Carlisle believes in players blocking out or prefers them to be ball hawks instead. Questions regarding the offensive design.... defensive schemes... what are player lapses and what are simply just a weakness in the design....etc..

    So that brings me to the discussion point. Here in Indiana, if the first part above is true about what it takes to make a franchise survive, is it a good idea to build a team where blocking out is not emphasized... where motion, screening, passing are not emphasized.... where the PG is asked to be shoot first... where guard play is not our bread and butter.... etc...

    Over the years we've been accustomed to a certain style of basketball in Indiana. From the winner takes all IHSAA tourney of year's past to a rather impressive run of in-state college ball over the years. Structured, fundamentally sound with a disciplined demeanor and oncourt play is expected and that type of effort is rewarded (and respected). We've all seen it over the years. Do we not expect these same principles in our 21st century pro basketball as well? ...especially in Indiana...

    Is getting away from that here in Indiana just asking for trouble and fan discontent? Does that make some of us hate some of the other issues more than we should because we just can't relate to the product on the floor in the first place?

    Do we just need to be brought kicking and screaming into the modern era of NBA basketball if we ever want a championship? And will some of us make it, let alone last thru the transition, or will the gate suffer to the point of real problems?

    Or does management and ownership need to take a look at putting a product on the floor that people here like and understand first and foremost? ...And then find a way to make that team competitive and turn them into contenders? I wonder if this position is the minority or majority opinion. I know I feel the team needs to be built this way first and foremost and feel we've gotten too far away from it for whatever reasons... regardless of who you blame directly or indirectly.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    International Counter bellisimo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    business 101 - Greater the risk...the greater the reward.

    Unfortunately for the Pacers this new "style" that they're trying to adapt has not provided much success for various reasons. One of the major reasons is that they never really created the atmosphere to play that style as they seem to be lacking various skills/intellect/understanding to match the vision of management on the floor.

    I'm not from Indiana and I also do not follow any other basketball leagues, so I can't really comment on the Indiana mentality. But here is a formula that is universal - if its fun and you come out winning - then the fans will <3 you.

    Right now, the game that is being played is neither fun...nor are we winning much which at this current moment seems to show that the risk that the management has taken backfired on them. I don't feel that the project is 100% complete, so the jury should still be out but in today's world everyone is hungry for results asap!

    does management and ownership need to take a look at putting a product on the floor that people here like and understand first and foremost? ...And then find a way to make that team competitive and turn them into contenders?
    I think that the people would generally would like the product if teh team was competitive and were contenders. The reason for the negative feedback is not the style perse but rather for the outcome.

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Am I one of the kicking and screaming? Sheesh I hope not. I think I've seen enough of the transitions through my fandom. I just don't happen to like the latest.

    But, I think there is some truth to the comments about Indiana basketball. There is a right way to play the game. I hope that hasn't been passed by.

    The one thing that troubles me. I think in just about every poll the San Antonio Spurs would probably be considered the classiest organization in the league. Plus, they have been the most successful ABA team in the NBA. That makes me jealous. We WERE the San Antonio Spurs in the ABA. WE were the class organization. WE were the success story. I miss being that franchise.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    The one thing that troubles me. I think in just about every poll the San Antonio Spurs would probably be considered the classiest organization in the league. Plus, they have been the most successful ABA team in the NBA. That makes me jealous. We WERE the San Antonio Spurs in the ABA. WE were the class organization. WE were the success story. I miss being that franchise.
    this reminded me of a joke....

    A Scottish old timer in Scotland, in a bar, talking to a young man.

    The Old Man says, "Lad, look out there to the field. Do ya see that fence? Look how well it's built. I built that fence stone by stone with me own two hands. I piled it for months."

    "But do they call me McGreggor-the-Fence-Builder? Nooo..."

    Then the old man gestured at the bar. "Look here at the bar. Do ya see how smooth and just it is? I planed that surface down by me own achin' back. I carved that wood with me own hard labour, for eight days."

    "But do they call me McGreggor-the-Bar-builder? Nooo..."

    Then the old man points out the window. "Eh, Laddy, look out to sea...Do ya see that pier that stretches out as far as the eye can see? I built that pier with the sweat off me back. I nailed it board by board."

    "But do they call me McGreggor-the-Pier-Builder? Nooo..."

    Then the old man looks around nervously, trying to make sure no one is paying attention.

    "But ya one goat..."
    the brawl literally threw away all the class the organization had. The BADS always seem to outweigh the GOODS....because people expect you to be good...

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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    For me, Bball, the answer is that yes playing the right way matters to most folks in Indiana (even some of us born as late as the 80's), and that having a team (and an average one at that) like the one we do now that doesn't play the right way is a lot for this fanbase to swallow long-term. Now, if we were winning titles with this style of play (which I think is impossible), things might be different, but in Indiana certain things are appreciated above all others, and this team simply does not demonstrate those qualities on the floor.

    In Indiana, if you play hard every night, play the right way, you will be liked or loved if you're any good. This team doesn't do that. Did I read correctly last night that even Mark Boyle took the time to comment on the lackadaisical play of our team last night against an inferior opponent? It's become so bad even the commentators are starting to mention it, and I think in better circumstances they would not be quick to add such comments (I could be wrong on that one).

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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Just like some of us may say, "Winning cures all!" It can also be made out to say that "losing magnifies all..."

    In Portland, the Blazer fans could generally stomach all the crap that went on with the team as the rest of the country was referring to them as the "Jail Blazers", but when the winning was replaced by losses, the same bad apples that were winning before were not worth the effort. Attendance plumeted in an arena that was well known for sell-outs and good will towards the team just vanished.

    The Blazer organization did everything they could to lose that image and to re-bond with their fans (Remember the Blazer's pledge) by taking bad deals (trades/buyouts) to rid themselves of Rasheed, Ruben Patterson, and Bonzi. After doing all this, the only thing that has changed in Portland is the fact that they are not the "Jail Blazers" anymore. The fans are staying away because the team is not good at all and will not recover for a few years. I'm sure fans in Portland were saying the same thing that I hear now in Pacer-land, "I would support the Pacers if they had a team of Jeff Foster and Danny Granger types." Well, Portland does, but where are those fans at?

    I just don't want to see the Pacers do the same thing with our players the fan base doesn't care for. I'm watching Portland and the length of their rebuilding since they gutted their team. I know a lot of you here feel the Pacers can rebuild like Phoenix or Dallas, but I look at how long it has taken Boston, Detroit, or Atlanta to rebuild and that scares me to death on blowing it all up. Especially when ownership will be in question in a couple years. Let's face it Mel and Herb are not going to be around forever. I know how fickle Indy fans can be with their $$$...I'd hate to mix the situation of Rebuilding, Indy fan apathy, and new ownership.

    Saying all this, I know this team may need a few more major changes, but gutting the whole thing is NOT an option no matter what the fans may think they want! Personally, I'd rather see this team have a vision and try to fish for the best guys they can get to accomplish what they want.
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    There has been a recent spate of postings defending players against certain criticisms by pointing out that what some may be seeing (and not liking) is by design (not a player failing per se'). This would be questions like whether Carlisle wants Tinsley to be a shoot-first PG or whether he's just making bad decisions. It would be questions about whether Carlisle believes in players blocking out or prefers them to be ball hawks instead. Questions regarding the offensive design.... defensive schemes... what are player lapses and what are simply just a weakness in the design....etc.
    -Bball
    In other words we don't know what we are talking about, huh? (grin)

    Carlise has a weekly call in show. We have a forum. Why not have a thread where we vote on a question to ask the coach each week. Then have a designated caller. I've listened to the show and it doesn't seem like we would have trouble calling in.

    That way we can find out from Carlisle when he wants Tinsley shooting, etc.. The question would have to be specific though or Carlisle might not give an informative answer.

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    For me, Bball, the answer is that yes playing the right way matters to most folks in Indiana (even some of us born as late as the 80's), and that having a team (and an average one at that) like the one we do now that doesn't play the right way is a lot for this fanbase to swallow long-term. Now, if we were winning titles with this style of play (which I think is impossible), things might be different, but in Indiana certain things are appreciated above all others, and this team simply does not demonstrate those qualities on the floor.

    In Indiana, if you play hard every night, play the right way, you will be liked or loved if you're any good. This team doesn't do that. Did I read correctly last night that even Mark Boyle took the time to comment on the lackadaisical play of our team last night against an inferior opponent? It's become so bad even the commentators are starting to mention it, and I think in better circumstances they would not be quick to add such comments (I could be wrong on that one).
    Just a thought. It's a fact the players don't like the style of play when Rick calls the plays. However when he give them free rein at the start of the season they muffed it by coming out and not giving the effort in the first quarter.

    Maybe he needs to give them another chance now that they are in shape. Or maybe he needs to call the plays in the first quarter and then give the players free rein.

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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Carlise has a weekly call in show. We have a forum. Why not have a thread where we vote on a question to ask the coach each week. Then have a designated caller. I've listened to the show and it doesn't seem like we would have trouble calling in.

    That way we can find out from Carlisle when he wants Tinsley shooting, etc.. The question would have to be specific though or Carlisle might not give an informative answer.
    This is a good idea! Would anyone be willing to be a designated caller?

  10. #10
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Don't they screen the questions? If so, the hardballs will never make it to homeplate.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    I understand your premise, but in fact believe it or not I don't actually agree.

    I mean I prefer the type of play you are talking about but let's not kid ourselves here we've had several fan favorites over the years who were not what you would call fundamentally sound.

    Reggie Miller was a beloved figure for a long time but he didn't start playing real defense until Larry Brown.

    Roger Brown, from what I have been told, would not be confused with Steve Alford in fundamental play. In fact I think the old ABA teams were more like Rucker Park than they were like Heinkle fieldhouse.

    To a point Gnome is right, winning does cure a lot. But I also know that the fans have to like the players to get behind them. Frankly as I've been saying for 7 years now, most fans in Indiana do NOT like the players on this team.

    Right or wrong that is just how they feel.

    You all talk like the 61 win season was filled with Pacers mainia in the air & here on the internet it was.

    But it was dead in this town. There was no special feeling.

    Just like Ron Artest. He had a legion of fans online, yet at the games he often was being yelled at by our own fans.

    I think part of the real problem is that there is a perception of to many players being about "me".

    Now that in Indiana does not work.

    You better be willing to die for the team if you want the fans to get behind you.

    Ok, I've gone off track here.

    No, I don't think you have to have four passes before a shot & diving into chairs for fans to like you.

    But you do have to

    1. Play with heart & effort visibly every single home game. Sorry Jay I know what you are saying in your post but I'm being realistic to what fans percieve.

    2. You have to never ever ever make any statement that elevates you above the team.

    Think about Reggie for a moment. Why was he beloved? Well of course hitting those big shots will do that for you but he would certainly have never been an icon beyond the court here if he ever once said the team wasn't doing enough for him. Heck when he faked interest in going to N.Y. that one year I know guys who said that he was dead to them.

    3. Never EVER EVER yell at the coach in public. (see Stephen Jackson for example) This does not sit well in Indiana at all.

    4. Have some fan interaction during a close hard fought game. Make a play & then run to someone in the crowd & slap them five. When you are on a defensive stand wave your hands for the crowd to respond. That sounds corny I know but I'm telling you I've never EVER seen that not work no matter what player does it. I think it makes the crowd (as a groupthink thing) feel like the player is asking them for their help so in a way they become joined in a cause & if it works then the celebration is intense & if it fails the crowd is not as angry in some cases because they felt like they were trying their hardest.

    I could go on but I'll stop.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I think part of the real problem is that there is a perception of to many players being about "me".
    More and more that is a fact of life. Plus when you have reporters like Well's and Kavitz looking to exploit what the players say, it hurts.

    In his blog yesterday Wells said this; "I see some Pacers fans are in panic mode after reading Jermaine O’Neal’s comments in The Star and on ESPN.com.
    I could see O’Neal’s frustration building up a few weeks ago. It came full circle when he declined to the talk to the media for the first time this season after the Charlotte game last weekend.

    O’Neal, who will always be on the league’s All-Interview team, usually throws the media a bone by talking before showering when on deadline, which was the case Thursday in Dallas. I knew something had to be wrong when he told me he wasn’t ready to talk.

    I hurried back to the media room to finish my game story before my 11:45 p.m. deadline. I finished up and returned to the locker room because I knew there was a possibility O’Neal could say some critical things." http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/

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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    \

    To a point Gnome is right, winning does cure a lot.
    I hear this a lot but I sometimes wonder if it's putting the cart in front of the horse. You've got to have a foundation to build that winning team on. You can't build a house on sand (Nor can you get Lightscribe to work without having an obscure setting in the Win XP registry set to O... but that's a different story and a few hours of my life I used up tonight and won't get back! ...But I digress...).

    It's easy to say winning cures everything, but it's not like winning just 'happens'. Especially, long term, meaningful wins and winning streaks. The kinds of things that deep playoff runs require.

    On the other subject... I don't think Indiana fans expect players to be 100% complete on both ends of the court but I do think they expect some balance. IOW: If you are weak defensively then you better make up for it with something else. ...and you should look like you are at least trying and not just going thru the motions in any aspects of the game. I know I feel that way.

    I agree 100% with what you said about what people expect of our players tho. And for every transgression they lose a little bit more of their benefit of the doubt with the public.

    I wonder if this team was winning just how quickly the fans would come back. Maybe this just isn't the collection of players Indiana fans want to go to war with? By that I mean, they aren't ready to give them their hearts and faith. This Indy .500 isn't going to change that.

    Hovering around .500 in and of itself in a transition year is nothing to sneeze at BUT fans need to see some light at the end of the tunnel. The team needs to almost always be competitive, pull off a few upsets along the way, take some very good teams to the wire and make them earn their victory and not want to see the Pacers again any time soon, and beat the teams they're supposed to beat. That's seeing light at the end of the tunnel. But that's not how this team is doing it right now and you'd hope that would start to change but just when you think it is they stink up the court and/or throw some different drama into the equation that doesn't need to be there.

    As for comments about Wells and Kravitz... that seems to be shooting the messenger to me. It's not like these guys are making stuff up or running with rumors. Wells in particular is just reporting the story and relaying the quotes. We might not like what his reports say but I don't know that we should direct our wrath at him. Maybe we should direct our wrath at the players for not having the good sense to keep some of this stuff under wraps.

    VA asked if the Pacers need better marketing and my reply was "Does marketing need better Pacers?" I think that's a valid question for us all (from fans to owners).

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    More and more that is a fact of life. Plus when you have reporters like Well's and Kavitz looking to exploit what the players say, it hurts.

    In his blog yesterday Wells said this; "I see some Pacers fans are in panic mode after reading Jermaine O’Neal’s comments in The Star and on ESPN.com.
    I could see O’Neal’s frustration building up a few weeks ago. It came full circle when he declined to the talk to the media for the first time this season after the Charlotte game last weekend.

    O’Neal, who will always be on the league’s All-Interview team, usually throws the media a bone by talking before showering when on deadline, which was the case Thursday in Dallas. I knew something had to be wrong when he told me he wasn’t ready to talk.

    I hurried back to the media room to finish my game story before my 11:45 p.m. deadline. I finished up and returned to the locker room because I knew there was a possibility O’Neal could say some critical things." http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/
    not sure what you're getting at, will. are you blaming wells and kravitz for the fans not embracing the team?

    for the particular incident you quoted, i don't see anything nefarious at all. mike wells is just being a good reporter there, imo. btw, wells also notes that espn columnist marc stein was present. is stein to blame as well? i'm sure he'll use the material when he writes a jermaine or pacers column

    the real trick, as bball says, is for the players to stop making these comments. an even niftier trick is for the players to stop having me-first thoughts and all become unselfish saints, but we all have human limitations

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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Not to QFT, but I really like Will's idea of coming up with a question or two for the Rick Carlisle show each week.

    Heck, from a radio show perspective it's probably a good thing to have a couple of well thought out questions that lead to insightful commentary.

    I'd even have our designated caller mention it's our "Pacers Digest Question Of the Week".
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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Here's a link to an interesting discussion of every NBA team and the circumstances of their best attendance season. For the Pacers, this was, of course, '99-'00, when the team a) moved to a new arena and b) went to the finals.


    http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/attend.htm


    At least 8 NBA franchises have their highest attendance during a year when the team had a losing record. This happens either when they were a new expansion team or because they had sold tickets after a good performance the year before.

    Most surprising is maybe the Celtics, whose best attendance was in '97-'98, when they won only 35 games:

    "The Celtics were in a relatively new building (the Fleet Center was only three years old) and they had the good feeling of Rick Pitino coming in for his debut as coach."


    So, good feeling can mean more than wins.


    Am I the only person here who remembers the first year the Simons owned the Pacers? The ushers wore tuxedos. It was a really exciting time. Even though the team on the floor was still mire in the 25 wins range, we felt good about it because the team was owned by good people, Hoosier people, and we knew things would get better.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    4. Have some fan interaction during a close hard fought game. Make a play & then run to someone in the crowd & slap them five. When you are on a defensive stand wave your hands for the crowd to respond. That sounds corny I know but I'm telling you I've never EVER seen that not work no matter what player does it. I think it makes the crowd (as a groupthink thing) feel like the player is asking them for their help so in a way they become joined in a cause & if it works then the celebration is intense & if it fails the crowd is not as angry in some cases because they felt like they were trying their hardest.
    You better believe that makes a difference. Excellent thought Peck and something our current group hasn't grasped as yet. Could be the reason DA has become more of a Pacer to some than a few other playes that have been here awhile.

    I've mentioned in other threads along the same line that management beyond the coaches and players have to get involved as well. The fanjam is well received and a good start, but can't be the only event for the fans. I will say the All Star voting promo where you can meet a player was a good idea as well. The whole organization needs to step up to the plate.

    I think Gnome hit everything right on the head. It's sad to say, but I can't see this franchise surviving a rebuilding spell like what Chicago, Boston, or Portland has experienced.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

  18. #18

    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    BBall,

    The calls are screened, but not to weed out the more challenging queries. Screening is done so I know who is there and what they want to talk about. Rick doesn't mind difficult questions, and I try and put the more interesting questions at the front of the line. It just happens that most weeks we get few, if any, thought provoking questions.

    MJB

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    BBall,

    The calls are screened, but not to weed out the more challenging queries. Screening is done so I know who is there and what they want to talk about. Rick doesn't mind difficult questions, and I try and put the more interesting questions at the front of the line. It just happens that most weeks we get few, if any, thought provoking questions.

    MJB
    That's good to know. This makes the idea of a 'question of the week' poll/thread seem like a very good, and practical (read: informative), idea.

    Thanks,
    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a question about team-building and marketing (as it regards to Pacers)

    Quote Originally Posted by mboyle1313 View Post
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    BBall,

    The calls are screened, but not to weed out the more challenging queries. Screening is done so I know who is there and what they want to talk about. Rick doesn't mind difficult questions, and I try and put the more interesting questions at the front of the line. It just happens that most weeks we get few, if any, thought provoking questions.

    MJB
    Not to be pushy or anything but I have to ask.

    Can we get by with mentioning that this is the Pacers Digest question of the week? Or would that be in poor taste?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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