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Thread: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    A formal proposal dated 1-1-07 has been forwarded to the
    Naismith Basketball Hall Of Fame. The proposal requests that the
    HOF begin judging ABA candidates in the same manner in which the
    Baseball Hall Of Fame finally now recognizes Negro League
    accomplishments.
    According to the proposal a group of qualified ABA observers (list
    included) will be assembled prior to May 1, 2007. That committee will
    then determine the deserving ABA players, coaches and executives, the
    first ever to make it to the Hall based upon ABA achievements. Being
    part of the HOF Class of 2007 is appropriate since this marks the 40
    year anniversary of the start of the ABA.
    We could use your support. Please email John Doleva, President of
    the HOF, and tell him your feelings: doleva@hoophall. com
    I will gladly mail a hard copy of the proposal to anyone interested.
    Just email me with a mailing address. patcosgrove@ optonline. net
    Pat Cosgrove
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    I think this is great.

    But who is most deserving,

    Mel, George, or Rah-jah?

    I don't know.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    That's cool that it's being considered. I think it needs to happen. I'm willing to even email this gentleman listed if I think I can come up with a little bit to say other than "Yes please".

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    I think this is great.

    But who is most deserving,

    Mel, George, or Rah-jah?

    I don't know.
    Mel said himself back in that early 90's Pacers documentary they used to show on Comcast Public Access that if Roger didn't make it in, the 'whole thing was a farce'. Also, Slick has mentioned Roger's name for the HOF.

    Gotta be Rahjah.
    "I mean, you'd walk into our dressing room and run into Mel Daniels holding a .45 -- it makes you wonder."

    Bob Netolicky

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Hell yeah, Roger all the way. George probably should be there too. If he hadn't burned out so quick after the merger, he would be. Roger was just a special player. The stats don't tell the whole story.

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    *Waits for Stern to somehow ruin it*

    Its great that its getting done, of course with some of the crap thats been happening lately with Hall of Fame quality players not getting in, I hope this doesn't turn into some gigantic love fest of the ABA and undeserving ABA players get in while NBA players are snubbed.

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Well, the first player they should induct is Artis Gilmore. Ridiculous that he isn't in.

    As for Brown, if he gets in then a whole slew have to be added - it would make Grant Hill and Alonzo Mourning automatics. He only had 5 top years. Big Mac had more of a career but even that wouldn't make it to the HOF for me if you turned those into NBA numbers.

    The problem is, the ABA was only around for what - 8 or 9 years? If a player had a monster year every season the ABA was in existence he might have a shot but much less than that and it isn't enough IMO. I just don't think having 5-6 very good years is enough.

    YMMV - I don't think Grant Hill or 'Zo should get in. Sucks that it's injury or illness that kept them out but that's the case for me. And yes, I have HUGE issues with Bill Walton being in. Best center in the game for most of 3 seasons but that isn't enough.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    And, I'd say it might very well open it up for Lou Dampier, the all-time leading scorer for the the ABA.

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    I agree about Dampier and Gilmore. I wish I could think of the "NBA" player that played in the ABA who said Brown was the best player he ever faced. I think George would have been a candidate had he not gone to the NBA. Brown's impact on the ABA was great. Besides, I think it would be good way to make up for the unfounded "blacklist".

    Mel Daniels? I would say yes but what do you guys think?
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    I wouldn't mind seeing the man with the all time victories (ABA), 3 ABA titles, and 5 league finals make it in. Bob Slick Leonard would be a good choice in my opinion.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Mel Daniels more than Raja IMO.
    George Gervin is ice to make it if they open it up
    and of course Slick and Dr. J


    Sorry but I couldn't get your link to work.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Mel Daniels more than Raja IMO.
    George Gervin is ice to make it if they open it up
    and of course Slick and Dr. J


    Sorry but I couldn't get your link to work.
    Gervin and Dr J are already in.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    Gervin and Dr J are already in.
    But not as ABA players.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Mel Daniels
    I can already see the display - Mel and Zelmo Beatty going head-to-head. Epic battles!
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    I can already see the display - Mel and Zelmo Beatty going head-to-head. Epic battles!
    My thoughts exactly.

    and while we're at it, can we get Neto's jersey i the COnseco rafters please.

    I'd love to see some sort of tribute to Dancing Harry too. If for no other reason than what he did to Denver once during the PO's.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    But not as ABA players.
    Huh? You're either in or you're not. And his ABA career is mentioned in his HOF bio.

    You don't even have to have played in the US to be in - theoretically a long-term Euro star could be added. IMO Sabonis should be in (once he's eligible) based on his international record - but someone has to care enough to nominate him.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    Huh? You're either in or you're not. And his ABA career is mentioned in his HOF bio.
    You don't even have to have played in the US to be in - theoretically a long-term Euro star could be added. IMO Sabonis should be in (once he's eligible) based on his international record - but someone has to care enough to nominate him.

    Hmmm...did they add that later? Because I seem to remember a stink being raised about their ABA stats being omitted etc.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Hmmm...did they add that later? Because I seem to remember a stink being raised about their ABA stats being omitted etc.
    I have no idea - I just checked the bio and it had Gervin's seasons in the ABA listed. I don't know about stats - I know they don't count toward NBA records but that will be a hard one to get around - not sure they should anyway (not sure they shouldn't either - I guess I just don't care much about that either way).
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    The ABA stats are excluded from their official NBA stats.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  20. #20

    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    A little off topic, but it still has to do with Roger...

    A couple of weeks ago I was at Good Will dropping some stuff off and I stumbled across a book titled "Foul: The Connie Hawkins Story." I'd never heard of it before but it's an awesome read AND Roger Brown is significantly involved. Roger was one of Hawk's earliest friends and he makes frequent appearances throughout the book (the betting scandal, the ABA, the merger).

    I'm not sure if it's even in print anymore, but it's definitely worth finding for a great look at NBA (and the basketball world in general) in the 60s and 70s.

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    A little off topic, but it still has to do with Roger...

    A couple of weeks ago I was at Good Will dropping some stuff off and I stumbled across a book titled "Foul: The Connie Hawkins Story." I'd never heard of it before but it's an awesome read AND Roger Brown is significantly involved. Roger was one of Hawk's earliest friends and he makes frequent appearances throughout the book (the betting scandal, the ABA, the merger).

    I'm not sure if it's even in print anymore, but it's definitely worth finding for a great look at NBA (and the basketball world in general) in the 60s and 70s.
    Yes, that was a good book.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  22. #22
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    and while we're at it, can we get Neto's jersey i the COnseco rafters please.
    I think they will but are still trying to find the babe wearing it.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Roger Brown may still get in!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    I agree about Dampier and Gilmore. I wish I could think of the "NBA" player that played in the ABA who said Brown was the best player he ever faced. I think George would have been a candidate had he not gone to the NBA. Brown's impact on the ABA was great. Besides, I think it would be good way to make up for the unfounded "blacklist".

    Mel Daniels? I would say yes but what do you guys think?
    George Gervin said Roger Brown was the most difficult player he ever defended. That may be what you're thinking of.

    Anyway, as far as getting guys into the Hall goes, the problem with Springfield is that there are very few electors (I think 24), they've been around forever, and their identities are secret. These guys represent old-time NBA interests. A letter writing campaign to the Hall is nice, but getting to the media and getting more word out there would be better.

    The only guys in the Hall who spent significant time in the ABA are Issel and Erving. Erving was a mortal lock, but if you look at Issel vs. Gilmore, it should have been Artis hands down. Issel, of course, was still active in the league as a coach, kind of like Dumars as a GM when he got in.

    I know a few guys in APBR (kind of like baseball's SABR) and statheads doing a Bill James/Billy Beane analysis of basketball who are trying to get more recognition. Some of you may read the Hollinger stats. A few of these guys are pre-Hollinger, and others are working on detailed analysis that is similar to 82games.com. Some of these guys have gone so far as to "normalize" stats between the ABA and NBA and different eras to account for possessions/game, rebounding, etc.

    The statistical picture on Brown isn't so good. He was a 20-21 ppg scorer his first 5 years in the league. The problem is, the gap between the ABA and NBA during this time was much wider. Guys have done statistical analysis on players switching leagues (myself included), and have found that the 20 pts in the NBA in 1968 was equal to about 16 (an 80% factor)or so in the NBA. That went up to a factor of .85-.90 in the first few years and wound up at .95 or dead even by 74-76. Brown was more than stats, but it's hard to push him through based on numbers or all-ABA selections (1 first team and 2 second teams in the first 5 years).

    A better strategy for ABA recognition would be to look at all-ABA team selections and pick two or three guys to support based upon the later years. Then work backwards from there after you gain momentum. Some of them are taking this route w/ the media. It's not an accident there are media guys pushing Gilmore more lately.


    -Artis Gilmore: 5 time first teamer, 24,000+ combined pts, best eligible center not in the Hall (Sikma/Sikma would probably be seond). MVP in 72.

    -McGinnis: 2 time first teamer, one second team. Only guy not named Gilmore or Erving to appear on two first teams in the last 4 years of the league. Co-MVP. Short career but an NBA first and second team selection help him. Best power forward not in Hall.

    -Leonard: Name another coach to win three professional titles not in the Hall (who is eligible). Auerbach felt threatened enough of the ABA to insult him in the press. Must have done something right to merit that kind of attention.

    -Daniels: Short career, but two-time MVP, beating out Barry both times. Only other player w/ mulitple MVPs was Erving. Every Hall eligible NBA MVP is in the Hall. ABA MVPs in Hall: Hawkins, Erving, Cunningham. Triple MVP in 71 (AS, Reg Season, Playoffs).

    Unfortunately, the next set of guys either fell off or didn't mesh well with their NBA teams: Brown, Dampier, and Calvin.

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