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Thread: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

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    Default Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Paraphrased:

    "It is what it is and we are what we are. It's not like basketball, where you can play both sides. You can only do what you can do. All we can do is score points."

    You can tell that Peyton is frustrated and almost reserved with the fact that the defense is going to cost them games, like today.

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    yeh, that is a subtle way of saying it but hey, maybe we should go with an all iron man football squad and just keep our offense out there. kidding of course but still, it sounds tempting with these kinds of results.

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by clownskull View Post
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    yeh, that is a subtle way of saying it but hey, maybe we should go with an all iron man football squad and just keep our offense out there. kidding of course but still, it sounds tempting with these kinds of results.
    I have suggested as such more than once this season already.

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Good. If Dungy's not going to tell them they need to quit losing games for the team someone needs to.

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    we have no D what so ever....lose to the Texans...just...wow...man oh man
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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Shouldn't Peyton be more concerned about how the offense was held under its season average vs. one of the worst defensive teams in the NFL?

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    Shouldn't Peyton be more concerned about how the offense was held under its season average vs. one of the worst defensive teams in the NFL?
    Probably not, seeing as how the defense only gave the offense six possessions, with which the Colts scored four times (3TDs and a FG), and Rhodes fumbled one away.

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    At this point I don't care who calls out this crap excuse for a defense. There is absolutely no excuse for an offense to feel like it has to score on every freaking possession to win a game.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    So after the season when Polian tells Peyton he's trading Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokely and Dallas Clark for defensive help you think he'll be OK with that?

    Not to dog Peyton because it's his job to have the best offense possible but one of the main reasons the defense sucks so bad is because Peyton has been given more offensive weapons than any QB in the history of the league - all-pro talent at every skill position and most spots on the line.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    So after the season when Polian tells Peyton he's trading Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokely and Dallas Clark for defensive help you think he'll be OK with that?

    Not to dog Peyton because it's his job to have the best offense possible but one of the main reasons the defense sucks so bad is because Peyton has been given more offensive weapons than any QB in the history of the league - all-pro talent at every skill position and most spots on the line.
    You know... he just might be OK with that. At least to a point. Wayne is seemingly the heir apparent to Marvin and part of a good tandem of wideouts right now so he might not be so quick to sign off on that trade.

    Stokely and Clark might be considerations. Peyton's not stupid and he has to see that money could help cure some of the defensive ills. And with a better defense there'd be some margin of error for the offense. But I'm not convinced money is the only problem. I still think the system is part of the problem. I agree with your thoughts on Freeney and Mathis for one thing. And we need some size.

    Then again, Stokely has been made of glass and would be coming back from a ruptured Achilles so I don't know that ANYONE would want him... including us.

    Clark seems like a tradable commodity. I have to wonder how many more times the offense wants to hear "False Start" and hear Tarik Glenn's number called. But then those are being magnified due to the situation (needing the offense to be perfect).

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    So after the season when Polian tells Peyton he's trading Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokely and Dallas Clark for defensive help you think he'll be OK with that?

    Not to dog Peyton because it's his job to have the best offense possible but one of the main reasons the defense sucks so bad is because Peyton has been given more offensive weapons than any QB in the history of the league - all-pro talent at every skill position and most spots on the line.
    Didn't seem to hurt the Cowboys a few years ago with Smith, Irvin and whoever the other receiver was.
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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    Didn't seem to hurt the Cowboys a few years ago with Smith, Irvin and whoever the other receiver was.
    You mean when there was no salary cap?

    If Peyton is as great of a QB as so many of you think, he doesn't need those weapons at WR. Look at Brady right now..Caldwell is his #1 wideout and he isn't doing too badly.

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    I'm pretty sure the Texans made a lot less subtle commentary on the Colts defense than Peyton did.

    If they need to hear it from anyone outside the scoreboard or the box score then they have bigger issues than just not tackling on first contact.

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    Didn't seem to hurt the Cowboys a few years ago with Smith, Irvin and whoever the other receiver was.
    The Colts would have to drop a long way to reach the level of "Addai, Harrison and whoever the other receiver is."

    Subtract a second pro-bowl wideout (our 2nd receiver back then was similar to Stokely, a speedster - can't even remember his name but he caught about 35 per year but averaged 20 ypc) and Dallas Clark and you'd get to where we were then. Well, except for Smith being better than Addai is right now though I think Manning's better than Aikman.

    There hasn't been a team in my memory with the weapons on offense that Indy has. Marino's Miami teams had the passing game but couldn't run.

    Polian's been quoted in about a million interviews saying the team's emphasis would be on offense. Last year you had pretty good balance with that but this season it's gone too far. This year's draft needs to be for D-line beef.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    Polian's been quoted in about a million interviews saying the team's emphasis would be on offense. Last year you had pretty good balance with that but this season it's gone too far. This year's draft needs to be for D-line beef.
    The defense was better last year but IIRC it still got walked on to open the Pittsburgh game and the offense was thrown out of synch either by the Steelers or a combination of the Steelers and the layoff.

    San Diego (last season) probably should've been the eye-opener but people swept it off as simply being the Colts having nothing to play for and then we 'shut it down' for the season. What San Diego might've been was the hit to the soft underbelly of the Colts that paved the way for what was to follow in the playoffs and this season.

    Jacksonville and Tenn both should've won at the dome this season. Both were doing what they had to do to win. Jacksonville just decided to get a little 'crazy' and throw something farther than 5 yards and were picked off. If they would've stuck to the game plan of clock management and run-run-run things probably would've turned out differently. And one of them allowed a runback for a TD IIRC.

    Also, being down 10-14 points to the Colts is no place to panic and leave the gameplan. In a Colt game you can forget some of the normal things you'd do or think. Just continue to run-run-run and keep Peyton off the field and put more and more pressure on the Colt offense to perform against the clock. You don't need to chase points. Don't get fooled into onside kicks and going for it on 4th and long. Kick your FG's... play field position... eat clock... and run-run-run.

    The Cowboys showed that Peyton can still crack under pressure (both physical pressure and the pressure the lack of a defense is putting on the offense) and will still try and force a "hero ball" rather than staying patient and taking what the defense is giving him. Look back to the Steeler game last season when he was throwing for the endzone on two consecutive plays rather than trying to get Vandershank closer.

    I have no idea what the Patriots were thinking and why they went away from the gameplan and started chasing points. It's like they went to the old blueprint for what to do when trailing the Colts.

    The proper recipe was out there and by game 10 the Cowboys showed it could be done. Why throw long when you can run long? That should be the motto for any team playing the Colts. Let the Colts have the short stuff and force them to be patient (which only plays into your hands as a Colt opponent wanting the clock to keep running). That way the Colt scores don't come fast and furious. And when the Colts do score, don't panic. Eat clock. The Colts can't stop you if you don't stop yourself. Even if you do come up short on a drive... don't panic. Don't chase points. Don't get into a shoot out.

    Meanwhile, the Colts have to play perfect on offense... stay patient (no hero balls (forces)... and Tarik Glenn needs not give back 5 yards here and there which makes it even harder on the offense. And recievers can't drop balls. And a fumble can be killer.
    That's what the Colts have to deal with. And just how much pressure is that?

    I'm starting to think the Colts would be better off getting away from the Cover 2 precisely because it's never going to be a great run-defense anyway (Granted, it should be better than the Colts are playing against the run). So it's just opening the door to expose the Colts' Achilles Heel. The Colts would be better off forcing teams into a shootout where they have the tools to prevail. The thing is... with a good run defense the Colts themselves could still control the clock with their tools on offense but the other team would be the one forced to go to the air IF THE COLTS COULD STOP (or at least DENT) the running game of the opposition).

    IMHO it's not just the players on defense... it's the system. It exposes the weakness of the Colts and lets the opposition at least keep things close and control the game. It would HELP to have better players but the weaknesses will still be there in the Cover 2... Altho with better players we should at least be able to SLOW a running game. OTOH... with Freeney and Mathis taking themselves out of every play I can't imagine how we could ever slow a running game.

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Since somebody brought up last season...

    When we played you in the regular season last year, It was Ben's first game back and Marvel Smith didn't last very long before spraining his other ankle.

    And we were forced to play catchup, after Ike Taylor was burned on the first play from scrimmage. We didn't try to establish our running game because we came out throwing on first down and that's not Pittsburgh Steelers football. Your DL quickness, in particular, bothered us. Our lack of a vertical passing game at that point in the season was exploited by your defense with eight (and sometimes nine) men in the box.

    Cowher said several times after the game that if we got the chance at a rematch, that we'd stick with the running game even if we were behind.

    And sure enough, in the playoffs, with everyone healthy, we used the play-action - especially early in the game - to keep you honest, then established a running game, and moved the ball with ease. Our OL was pushing your quick but undersized front seven backwards all game long.

    Your defense is built to protect a lead, and use quickness against your opponent's passing game.

    If your opponent sticks to the ground game, they'll find success because your defenders aren't big enough, aren't good enough tacklers of an offensive player moving north-south. They're okay in pass coverage. Again, your defense is designed to protect a lead generated from your offense, and that works well *some* of the time.

    Hopefully for Colts fans, Pollian will be replaced by someone with a better sense of how to spend the salary cap (and a smooth talker that can convince Peyton that the offense needs a significant pay cut). A better strategy would be to have both an offense and a defense that can make plays to win a ballgame.

    Heck, we've seen many years of "an offense that can milk the clock after the defense gets us a lead" in Pittsburgh until we finally got an offense that could make a few plays themselves. There is an "opposite extreme." But I guess that's better than Baltimore, circa 2000, with a legendary defense but an inept offense that kept every game interesting, which is the polar opposite of what you've got. Except that team won a Super Bowl.

    So if I had my choice to win a playoff game, I'd pick the defense every time.
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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    The defense was better last year but IIRC it still got walked on to open the Pittsburgh game and the offense was thrown out of synch either by the Steelers or a combination of the Steelers and the layoff.
    IMO the defense did well enough last year. The Steelers had some success both running and play-pass (BEN R really started off the game well) but they only gave up 21 pts through 3 quarters despite the offense being dogmeat.

    I completely blame the layoff for that loss. I don't know how many plays there were when Pittsburgh would blitz and Peyton would throw 10 yards behind a receiver who was going long. All year long Peyton and the receivers broke those plays off short and Peyton threw where the blitzer was coming from - but in this game the receivers didn't get the memo. It took 45 minutes before the offense even woke up.

    Last year's team was a Super Bowl contending team because you had the same offense as this year and a defense that was "good enough." This year you have the same offense but the defense totally blows. A chunk of that's injuries but they just get knocked all over the field.

    You had a one year window. You can get another window by upgrading the defense to average again - or you can go for above average and lose something on offense (which is what I think Polian should do - keep the line strong but let some of the skill receivers go - do you have a TE who can even throw a block?). But this isn't the year, though with Peyton at QB you have at least a puncher's chance in any one game.
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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    I've been doing some stat checking. Last year's Colt defense was statistically better BUT there was a small dent in those stats that should've been a red flag.

    In yards per carry (allowed) we ranked 28th at 4.4 per carry. There were only 4 teams worse in that category.

    It didn't hurt us as much throughout the season because we were actually one of the teams that ranked highest in fewest runs attempted against us.

    I'm sure those two items got some people's attention... altho apparently not in the offices of the Colt hierarchy.

    Some teams must've wondered.... "If they are giving up 4.4 yards per carry and yet are one of the teams few are even trying to run on.... What would happen if someone just run-run-run it down their throats? We'd control the clock and the ball.... We'd put pressure on their offense to perform at extrememly high levels every down as long as their defense can't stop the run.... We'd force their defense to play a lot of minutes and if they continue to give up yardage like that then it would be demoralizing minutes.... And we'd limit the need to think in terms of needing a lot of points to beat the Colts"

    And then when that was proven to work it only got worse.

    This season we rank 31st in terms of teams running the ball against us. Only one other team has been rushed on more (Oakland) and we are within 12 rushes of catching them. It's very possible we'll earn that 32nd position by game's end on Sunday.

    We are giving up 25 more yards per game rushing than the nearest defensive sieve and we have 32nd place firmly in our grasp there. We are giving up a full 120 yards more per game than the 1st place team!

    Meanwhile... this is the (public) mindset in the Colt hierarchy:
    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Star article Dungy defends beleaguered Meeks
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    First things first: Meeks isn't going anywhere.

    With the Colts' erratic defense having one last chance to get its act together before the playoffs -- Sunday's game in the RCA Dome against the Miami Dolphins -- Dungy made it clear he has the utmost confidence in his defensive coordinator.

    "Absolutely,'' he said Wednesday. "Last year we were No. 2 in scoring defense and doing a lot of good things. What's different? Nothing's different other than last year we lost two (games) and this we've lost four.''
    Meeks was not made available for comment on the erratic play of the Colts defense.

    Dungy acknowledged the obvious, that the Colts have been unable to adequately defend the run this year with anything approaching the success they enjoyed last season. After allowing averages of 110.1 yards per game and 4.4 yards per attempt in 2005, the averages have mushroomed to 174.5 and 5.3. Both are league worsts by comfortable margins.
    Follow link for full article.
    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...612280464/1100

    It seems to me we've thoroughly been figured out and our braintrust, at least in public, isn't willing to admit last year's defense had a severe weakness but that it just didn't really get exploited much throughout the regular season.... but once it did get figured out we should've known we'd be pushing a rock uphill from that point on.

    Really, we should've lost the 1st Jags and Titans games this season. We didn't so much win it on our own as they both made critical errors and got away from what they needed to do to win. They had us where they wanted us.

    So, if the Colts really mean what Dungy is saying in that article, I don't see how things CAN get better next season. Sure, we'll always have a chance in any one game with Peyton and this offense. But it will be many nailbiters where we need offensive perfection, a well run 2 minute drill, no mistakes, even clock management that might include trying not to score too soon, etc (talk about pressure) and that is when our fate is in our own hands...

    Worse, we'll have some games where it will be the opposition with the last possession and we'll be hoping for the clock to run out before they run to pay dirt or kick a winning FG.

    A fundamentally sound team should be able to hang with us and get any game down to the wire as long as they don't mind playing ball control and their QB doesn't try to be a hero. And then it just might be a question of who has the ball last.

    That's not a formula for winning the Super Bowl.

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I've been doing some stat checking. Last year's Colt defense was statistically better BUT there was a small dent in those stats that should've been a red flag.

    In yards per carry (allowed) we ranked 28th at 4.4 per carry. There were only 4 teams worse in that category.

    It didn't hurt us as much throughout the season because we were actually one of the teams that ranked highest in fewest runs attempted against us.
    Bingo. Teams are just sticking with it this season, like we did last January.

    Generally, when teams are behind they abandon the running game to try to catch up. Against the Colts, you should not abandon the run even if you're behind.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    I am probably the only person who will say this, but I blame the Colts offense far more for our losses than the Colts defense. Clearly our offense is superior to our defense, but hence the higher expectations.

    We have a team made up of guys who are breaking historic records because of their proficiency on the offensive side of the ball. Yet, scoring only 24 points against the Houston Texans isn't exactly the makings of a "can't be stopped" offense. Had we gotten one more score, or had the TD instead of the field goal, or converted one more 3rd down... we can win the game.

    The defensive side of the ball doesn't carry the burden that the offensive side does, and when you look at the mass injuries we have had on that side of the football, the pressure looms even greater on the offense. Go back and look at past playoff losses and you tell me that it was our defense that cooked the goose. I just don't see it.

    When Peyton gets in the playoffs he gets happy feet and just doesn't stand in the pocket long enough to convert passes. If you are the best quarterback in football, you do whatever it takes to win games. If it means scoring 4 times or times or whatever... you just have to make it happen.

    Now Peyton can't do it all. It has to do with receivers dropping passes, linemen missing blocks, and on and on it goes. We should score at will with the weapons we have on that side of the ball.

    Now I don't doubt that we could have a more balanced team, but what concerns me is what happens to the offense when that happens. Peyton has already been fairly stymied with the offensive players he currently has at his disposal in the playoffs, how will he fare with lesser players?

    Anyway, just my

    I'm not a Peyton hater, I just think when you are as talented as he is and are given as many tools, you have to play at a Jordan level and make those around you better all the time. Sure Jordan played defense, but even in basketball you usually have players specializing on one side of the ball.
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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard View Post
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    I am probably the only person who will say this, but I blame the Colts offense far more for our losses than the Colts defense. Clearly our offense is superior to our defense, but hence the higher expectations.

    We have a team made up of guys who are breaking historic records because of their proficiency on the offensive side of the ball. Yet, scoring only 24 points against the Houston Texans isn't exactly the makings of a "can't be stopped" offense. Had we gotten one more score, or had the TD instead of the field goal, or converted one more 3rd down... we can win the game.

    The defensive side of the ball doesn't carry the burden that the offensive side does, and when you look at the mass injuries we have had on that side of the football, the pressure looms even greater on the offense. Go back and look at past playoff losses and you tell me that it was our defense that cooked the goose. I just don't see it.

    When Peyton gets in the playoffs he gets happy feet and just doesn't stand in the pocket long enough to convert passes. If you are the best quarterback in football, you do whatever it takes to win games. If it means scoring 4 times or times or whatever... you just have to make it happen.

    Now Peyton can't do it all. It has to do with receivers dropping passes, linemen missing blocks, and on and on it goes. We should score at will with the weapons we have on that side of the ball.

    Now I don't doubt that we could have a more balanced team, but what concerns me is what happens to the offense when that happens. Peyton has already been fairly stymied with the offensive players he currently has at his disposal in the playoffs, how will he fare with lesser players?

    Anyway, just my

    I'm not a Peyton hater, I just think when you are as talented as he is and are given as many tools, you have to play at a Jordan level and make those around you better all the time. Sure Jordan played defense, but even in basketball you usually have players specializing on one side of the ball.
    Only in Indy is it said the offense can do more when they actually score on 4 of 6 possessions.

    IIRC, they fumbled on one of the two they didn't score on.

    If the defense could stop the run and get the offense more possessions, then things would be dandy.

    This space for rent

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by fooddaman View Post
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    Only in Indy is it said the offense can do more when they actually score on 4 of 6 possessions.

    IIRC, they fumbled on one of the two they didn't score on.

    If the defense could stop the run and get the offense more possessions, then things would be dandy.
    Well, could we have had more efficent drives? Or converesely, could we have milked the ball more and kept it out of the hands of the Texans?

    And you are correct, only in Indy are the expectations so high on offense. We have the best offense in the game right now... period. You still haven't addressed my question, current games aside, why have the Colts lost in the playoffs? Has it primarily been the defense or offense?
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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard View Post
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    Well, could we have had more efficent drives? Or converesely, could we have milked the ball more and kept it out of the hands of the Texans?

    And you are correct, only in Indy are the expectations so high on offense. We have the best offense in the game right now... period. You still haven't addressed my question, current games aside, why have the Colts lost in the playoffs? Has it primarily been the defense or offense?

    Last year, it was rust. The years before, it was primarily the defense. NE killed us by being able to dink-n-donk us to death with short pass plays that, as they accumulated, became long-*** drives down the field.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood View Post
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    Last year, it was rust. The years before, it was primarily the defense. NE killed us by being able to dink-n-donk us to death with short pass plays that, as they accumulated, became long-*** drives down the field.
    IMO two years ago it was coaching. You conceded the game in NE before it ever started by deciding to play their game instead of yours because it was cold with a little wind.

    Yeah - chances are if you'd played their game you'd have been blown out but you'd have had a shot. Instead you played New England's game - the game they were the best in the league at for that point in time.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Peyton just subtly ripped the defense

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    IMO two years ago it was coaching. You conceded the game in NE before it ever started by deciding to play their game instead of yours because it was cold with a little wind.

    Yeah - chances are if you'd played their game you'd have been blown out but you'd have had a shot. Instead you played New England's game - the game they were the best in the league at for that point in time.
    Could be - I remember thinking something along these lines back then. Honestly, it's been so long... all I can really remember really vividly is the 20 - 3 loss (I think that was the score). In that game, NE just held onto the ball forever. The other one, the one that was a bit closer, that game was just nuts, and I don't remember much about it, except for being mad as hell at the end of the game.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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