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The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Need advice on an HDTV

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  • #61
    Re: Need advice on an HDTV

    in terms of resolution for HD, 1080i is what you want for Xbox 360. Ideally for PS3, you want a native 1080p input, which is currently very, very expensive.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Need advice on an HDTV

      I'm having a little trouble with my TV. My standard DVDs seem to be a bit...grainy. The one Blu-Ray I have is pretty clean, though.

      NBA2K7 is also kind of "wavy", while Resistence plays just fine.

      I have component cables, just 'cause HDMI's are so expensive right now.

      Still, it's weird.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Need advice on an HDTV

        Originally posted by Shade View Post
        I'm having a little trouble with my TV. My standard DVDs seem to be a bit...grainy. The one Blu-Ray I have is pretty clean, though.

        NBA2K7 is also kind of "wavy", while Resistence plays just fine.

        I have component cables, just 'cause HDMI's are so expensive right now.

        Still, it's weird.
        It's time to blow it up.
        Narf!

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Need advice on an HDTV

          Shade,

          You need to give up on anything electronic. You have the worst luck. I think someone in another one of the threads suggested an amish life for you. You might should give that a try.

          Or at the very least, since you always want to blow things up, go Unabomber on us and live in a shack out in the woods with nothing electric and mumbling something about blowing up the damn pacers and colts all the time.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Need advice on an HDTV

            Originally posted by Shade View Post

            I have component cables, just 'cause HDMI's are so expensive right now.

            Still, it's weird.
            FWIW:
            Parts Express
            www.parts-express.com
            HDMI Cables
            1 meter = 15.14
            Part #181-730

            2 meter = 17.95
            3 meter = 24.97

            ----

            I'm not suggesting the HDMI cable would or would not have anything to do with your problems. But it would appear you've been reading/hearing some snake oil 'sale's speak' regarding HDMI cables. Those cables you see for 80.00, 90.00, 100.00 and more dollars are designed to separate you from your money, not give you a better picture.

            -Bball
            Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

            ------

            "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

            -John Wooden

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Need advice on an HDTV

              flattvdirect.com
              The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Need advice on an HDTV

                Originally posted by Shade View Post
                I'm having a little trouble with my TV. My standard DVDs seem to be a bit...grainy. The one Blu-Ray I have is pretty clean, though.

                NBA2K7 is also kind of "wavy", while Resistence plays just fine.

                I have component cables, just 'cause HDMI's are so expensive right now.

                Still, it's weird.
                The HDMI might help. I've heard a lot of HD owners mention that standard definition signals in HD often are a little fuzzy/cruddy, simply because they put a lot more effort/time into the HD portion of the set. Or, it could be a bum set. I'd go buy Bball's cheap cables, and if it still looks bad, send it back.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Need advice on an HDTV

                  Originally posted by Bball View Post
                  FWIW:
                  Parts Express
                  www.parts-express.com
                  HDMI Cables
                  1 meter = 15.14
                  Part #181-730

                  2 meter = 17.95
                  3 meter = 24.97

                  ----

                  I'm not suggesting the HDMI cable would or would not have anything to do with your problems. But it would appear you've been reading/hearing some snake oil 'sale's speak' regarding HDMI cables. Those cables you see for 80.00, 90.00, 100.00 and more dollars are designed to separate you from your money, not give you a better picture.

                  -Bball
                  Holy spit, that's cheap. The HDMI's I found run $80-$190.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Need advice on an HDTV

                    Originally posted by Shade View Post
                    Holy spit, that's cheap. The HDMI's I found run $80-$190.
                    That's the world of "high end" for you. Only in this world could a block of wood or a plastic outlet cover fetch $50 to "improve" your system.

                    I don't have a PS3 yet, but I would look at using a regular DVD player to the TV and compare with what the PS3 sends (if this is what you meant you were using). Could be the PS3 upconversion just isn't that good and that the TV will do better.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Need advice on an HDTV

                      Sorry guys but you will notice a difference between a cheap hdmi and one that is actually decent build quality. Cables are inducers. They are only going to damage the picture quality. The cheaper you go the cheaper the materials they use to build it which in turn cause more noise or distortion. This may be fine to some people but if you are running 1080p and you just spent 600 bucks on a ps3 then why not hook it up the correct way. Look at the different cables from Audioquest the HDMI 1 and the HDMI X. 120 Bucks but it upgrades you to silver in your cable which is a better conductor for High quality HD signal.

                      Also the grainyness and wavy lines might be from a ground loop caused by your power. You may check ebay for some of the monster power or Panamax strips that filter noise. These make a TON of difference in the performance. If you are tight on money I would say keep it hooked up with component and buy one of these. Retail they go for about 150 - 200 bucks so you should be able to find a used one for a good price. I cannot remember the basic monster one but the panamax one is the M8HCPRO. Its a nice piece that does a great job.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Need advice on an HDTV

                        Originally posted by justinDOHMAN View Post
                        Sorry guys but you will notice a difference between a cheap hdmi and one that is actually decent build quality. Cables are inducers. They are only going to damage the picture quality. The cheaper you go the cheaper the materials they use to build it which in turn cause more noise or distortion. This may be fine to some people but if you are running 1080p and you just spent 600 bucks on a ps3 then why not hook it up the correct way. Look at the different cables from Audioquest the HDMI 1 and the HDMI X. 120 Bucks but it upgrades you to silver in your cable which is a better conductor for High quality HD signal.
                        Nope...

                        If you spend 120.00 for an HDMI cable you just wasted money.

                        All this talk about cheaper materials gets a little silly. Exactly how cheap can the materials go? Or how expensive for that matter? And I'm not arguing for 'cheap' cables... I'm arguing against 'overpriced' cables. Grossly overpriced as a matter of fact.

                        It gets pretty obvious pretty quickly just by looking whether a cable is well made or not. After that it's all snake oil.

                        The cables I mentioned above are perfectly fine and anyone that spends more has simply been hoodwinked by marketing claims.

                        But let's look deeper...

                        Since you are claiming a difference in picture quality with HDMI cables I will speak to that:

                        It's digital. On/off. It either works or it doesn't. Your picture will be the same no matter what you spend for the cables. That's where this debate really gets funny with people claiming to see a difference. There is no difference to see when dealing in the digital domain. Unless you see tiling, pixelating, or a black screen your cable is doing its job. There's no more improvement to be made. It can't. And nobody ever comes at it from the angle of a pixelation issue (which would just be a bad cable and can happen whether it's a 20.00 cable or a 200.00 cable), they claim there's some quality difference in the picture. Impossible. It's not even debatable. It is what it is. End of story.

                        These audiophile cable companies have dealt in snake oil for a long time. Some of their claims are laughable right up front. Some of the claims are correct but aren't any different from any other cable except the other company isn't hyping things. But regardless of any of that, we're talking digital cables now (insert Allen Iverson voice). Digital cables. Digital signals. Box A tells Box B (Television) what to do to make a picture. If there is a working picture then the cable did its job. The picture won't wash out or ghost or get fuzzy because we're in the digital domain. If the tv is making a picture, and that picture has no pixelation, then that's it.

                        I work with this stuff all the time and nothing makes me madder than seeing someone waste money they didn't have to spend on grossly overpriced cables sold on snakeoil and marketing speak. Use the money to buy a better TV, or HT sound system, or some extra DVD's to watch on the system.

                        Don't buy the snake oil!!!

                        When we're talking analog cables there are subjective differences but when we're talking digital cables there are no subjective differences. This is not debatable.


                        Also the grainyness and wavy lines might be from a ground loop caused by your power. You may check ebay for some of the monster power or Panamax strips that filter noise. These make a TON of difference in the performance. If you are tight on money I would say keep it hooked up with component and buy one of these. Retail they go for about 150 - 200 bucks so you should be able to find a used one for a good price. I cannot remember the basic monster one but the panamax one is the M8HCPRO. Its a nice piece that does a great job.
                        A ground loop is possible but you'd see the symptoms on every DVD. And I can't imagine how it wouldn't show up on every game as well...since we're talking the same playback device.

                        There are cheaper ways to break a groundloop, especially if you need to verify that is what you're seeing before you plunk down money on a filter like these.
                        Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                        ------

                        "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                        -John Wooden

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Need advice on an HDTV

                          Bball is my hero when it comes to this stuff.

                          I've tested a bargain basement tru-qwest ($12.00) HDMI 6ft cable (Big lots), a Phillips ($24.00) 6ft cable (Walmart) and a Monster Cable 300 series ($90.00) from (CCity). Not one iota difference in picture quality so the lower price won out. I'm running a Panasonic upcovert DVD player via HDMI to a 42 inch Samsung plasma.

                          Now if were talking longer runs then I have to consider a upgrade once we get near the 12ft mark.


                          When it comes to wavy lines it could be several things including other electrical items turning off and on in your home. Some simple steps to at least eliminate other possibilities is make sure the cables running behind your tv and player are not a jumbled mess. If your running a surround sound system are your speakers shielded?

                          As Bball pointed out if your using analog cables then a slight upgrade in cable quality can make a difference depending on the shielding in the cables being used.
                          You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Need advice on an HDTV

                            I'm totally confused now. What kind of oil should I be using with my new 109 inch flat screen? Olive? Peanut?
                            Narf!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Need advice on an HDTV

                              Originally posted by Robobtowncolt View Post
                              I'm totally confused now. What kind of oil should I be using with my new 109 inch flat screen? Olive? Peanut?
                              Canola.

                              Btw, I figured out the problem with my games. For whatever reason, when I exited the settings on my PS3, it automatically swtiched back to 480p. I set it back to 1080i, then 720p, and both work properly.

                              My movies still don't look as good as I'd like them too, though. But maybe that's just because the PS3 is trying to upscale them too much. I'll have to try out a standard DVD player on it and see what happens.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Need advice on an HDTV

                                Originally posted by Bball View Post
                                Nope...

                                If you spend 120.00 for an HDMI cable you just wasted money.

                                All this talk about cheaper materials gets a little silly. Exactly how cheap can the materials go? Or how expensive for that matter? And I'm not arguing for 'cheap' cables... I'm arguing against 'overpriced' cables. Grossly overpriced as a matter of fact.

                                It gets pretty obvious pretty quickly just by looking whether a cable is well made or not. After that it's all snake oil.

                                The cables I mentioned above are perfectly fine and anyone that spends more has simply been hoodwinked by marketing claims.

                                But let's look deeper...

                                Since you are claiming a difference in picture quality with HDMI cables I will speak to that:

                                It's digital. On/off. It either works or it doesn't. Your picture will be the same no matter what you spend for the cables. That's where this debate really gets funny with people claiming to see a difference. There is no difference to see when dealing in the digital domain. Unless you see tiling, pixelating, or a black screen your cable is doing its job. There's no more improvement to be made. It can't. And nobody ever comes at it from the angle of a pixelation issue (which would just be a bad cable and can happen whether it's a 20.00 cable or a 200.00 cable), they claim there's some quality difference in the picture. Impossible. It's not even debatable. It is what it is. End of story.

                                These audiophile cable companies have dealt in snake oil for a long time. Some of their claims are laughable right up front. Some of the claims are correct but aren't any different from any other cable except the other company isn't hyping things. But regardless of any of that, we're talking digital cables now (insert Allen Iverson voice). Digital cables. Digital signals. Box A tells Box B (Television) what to do to make a picture. If there is a working picture then the cable did its job. The picture won't wash out or ghost or get fuzzy because we're in the digital domain. If the tv is making a picture, and that picture has no pixelation, then that's it.

                                I work with this stuff all the time and nothing makes me madder than seeing someone waste money they didn't have to spend on grossly overpriced cables sold on snakeoil and marketing speak. Use the money to buy a better TV, or HT sound system, or some extra DVD's to watch on the system.

                                Don't buy the snake oil!!!

                                When we're talking analog cables there are subjective differences but when we're talking digital cables there are no subjective differences. This is not debatable.



                                A ground loop is possible but you'd see the symptoms on every DVD. And I can't imagine how it wouldn't show up on every game as well...since we're talking the same playback device.

                                There are cheaper ways to break a groundloop, especially if you need to verify that is what you're seeing before you plunk down money on a filter like these.
                                You work with this stuff all the time? Im sorry I run a store that does 500k a month in HIGH end theater gear. Infront of my face I see 10 Lcd/Plasma Tv's that cost over 3000 dollars and a Pioneer Elite that retails for 8k with a 1500 dollar Pioneer elite bluray player on it. You can yell and scream about digital does not make a difference. I have nothing to lose here I live in dallas so I am not trying to sell anyone on this board anything. With high end gear YOU WILL NOTICE A DIFFERENCE. Infact I actually have a Mit WD65831 Diamond 1080p Setup Picture in Picture with 2 Pioneer elite DV46AV's on it. One with a HDMI 1 Cable from Audioquest and one with a ProSolutions Hdmi Cable on it. The prosolutions goes for about 65 bucks or so. So by your standards it would be a overpriced cable as well. YOU CAN SEE A DIFFERENCE. The blacks are darker the flesh tones are better, and do not even get me started on the Audio difference on the two. The difference is there if you do not want to belive it or not. Will you see it on a 29 dollar dvd player and a 800 dollar 50 inch dlp maybee not. But when you get into the higher quality merchandise you will notice a difference. Before you resond I want to know if you have seen the two side by side both hooked up with a high quality player to actually see the difference. BTW I am in no way saying you should buy the 100-200 dollar HDMI cables I am just simply stating there is a difference between the two. Many people could care less and would rather save 80 dollars or so which is fine.

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