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Thread: Foster's shooting

  1. #76

    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Roferr View Post
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    I still say anyone who complains about Foster's shooting pct. has an agenda and is missing the big picture.

    That's ignorant. It's a legitimate point. And even if you think it isn't, I don't see what I could gain for my "agenda" by making the case that Foster misses easy putbacks. WTF?


    Quote Originally Posted by Roferr View Post
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    Or how about pts. lost on poor shot selection? How about pts lost on players not blocking out, setting picks, lazy defense, etc? We could go on and on and Jeff's missing two shots a game will still be very insignificant.
    I'm sure you'd fit right in on Isiah's staff.

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    That's ignorant. It's a legitimate point. And even if you think it isn't, I don't see what I could gain for my "agenda" by making the case that Foster misses easy putbacks. WTF?




    I'm sure you'd fit right in on Isiah's staff.

    Sure, it's a legitimate point but considerably less than JO, Al, Tins and Granger shooting less than 80% from the ft line. Or JO missing 8 shots a game, Al missing 7, Jax missing 7, Granger 4.5 or Tinsley 6.5.

    It sure in the hell doesn't merit an entire thread when a guy only misses 2 shots a game.

    All I'm saying if you're going to bring up some shortcomings, well then do it with some major ones, which the team has plenty of.

    Yell, like Isiah is my favorite basketball personality. He's screwed up everything he's touched.

    Complaining about Foster's two misses a game is about like Isiah blaming Ronaldo Balkman for all the Knicks losses.

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Here's a stat.


    25 misses at the rim. That would be near 2 extra points/game if he'd made all of them. Even if half of them were eventually "makes" then it'd still be 1 extra point/game. It's not the worst of the Pacers' problems but that doesn't make it any less significant.



    46% is not a good shooting percentage for anyone who takes most of their shots within 3 feet of the basket.
    Your logic is flawed, as this could be applied to every player on the team. You could do the same math if you took into account TO's for players like Tins and Jack. I don't understand why people are ragging on the heart and soul of this team.

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Why did Jeff make all of his shots last night? I'm curious what you all think about why he didn't mis one last night
    I have it on good authority that after reading this thread he made one quick call to his local Recreation Unlimited and had a hoop immediately re-installed in his driveway. Practice makes perfect.

    http://www.recreationunltd.com/resid...ballgoals.shtm

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  5. #80

    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Shooting percentages of other guys who only shoot at the rim and score primarily on putbacks:

    Erick Dampier .671
    Tyson Chandler .654
    David Lee .642
    Andris Biedrins .613
    Etan Thomas .602
    Samuel Dalembert .599

    I could go on. Foster was 34% in the last month, right? And he is at 46% on the season. Someone commented that one extra make per game would bump it up to 55%. But the truth is, even 55% is bad for that type of player, let alone 46% or 34%.

  6. #81

    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by ALF68 View Post
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    Your logic is flawed, as this could be applied to every player on the team. You could do the same math if you took into account TO's for players like Tins and Jack. I don't understand why people are ragging on the heart and soul of this team.

    Uh, that doesn't make my logic flawed. Every aspect of the game is relevant, including every missed shot. And I'm sorry that you can't recognize the fact that Jeff should be making shots that he regularly misses rather than spend your time questioning someone's intent.

    Apparently being a diehard Foster fan is like staring directly into the sun.

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Thank you MR.

  8. #83

    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Roferr View Post
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    Sure, it's a legitimate point but considerably less than JO, Al, Tins and Granger shooting less than 80% from the ft line. Or JO missing 8 shots a game, Al missing 7, Jax missing 7, Granger 4.5 or Tinsley 6.5.

    It sure in the hell doesn't merit an entire thread when a guy only misses 2 shots a game.

    All I'm saying if you're going to bring up some shortcomings, well then do it with some major ones, which the team has plenty of.

    I do bring up the team's shortcomings in the appropriate thread.

    Look, I know that Foster's misses aren't the biggest issue on the team but, most importantly, I think it's one of the most correctable issues. I seriously believe that Foster would lead the NBA in FG% if he was more patient. He has the hands and he has the quickness to make every putback, or at least get to the line like he did last night.

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I do bring up the team's shortcomings in the appropriate thread.

    Look, I know that Foster's misses aren't the biggest issue on the team but, most importantly, I think it's one of the most correctable issues. I seriously believe that Foster would lead the NBA in FG% if he was more patient. He has the hands and he has the quickness to make every putback, or at least get to the line like he did last night.

    As long as you put it as a "correctable issue", I can buy that. That is what's so maddening. He's missing them point blank. There's times he seems hurried and other times that he just tries to muscle it up. With his jumping ability, there should be no reason that he couldn't control the ball on some occasions and go right back up for a dunk.

    However, a lot of his tips aren't controlled tips....they are a wild stab to hit the backboard to keep the ball alive for another rebound for him or his teammate, but they count as fga's.

    If he only shot the ones that he could actually control and get off a decent shot instead of wildly tipping it, his FG pct would be much higher.

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Roferr View Post
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    However, a lot of his tips aren't controlled tips....they are a wild stab to hit the backboard to keep the ball alive for another rebound for him or his teammate, but they count as fga's.
    And his quantity of ORs would be a lot lower.

    Maybe I'm alone here, but that is what drives me nuts more than his FG% - the times where he unsuccessfully has multiple tip-attempts that all miss. That does not deserve a standing ovation, in my opinion.

    He'll finish a game like that with 10+ ORs and some bozo will call into Kevin Lee and say, "Foster dominated the offensive glass tonight, he had ten offensive rebounds." He may get credit for 10 ORs, but he did not dominate. And in fact, he would've been more dominant if he only had six ORs and converted a few more of them into points on the first effort.

    Basketball is about outscoring your opponent, not out rebounding your opponent. If you don't convert the rebounds into points, they aren't particuarly valuable.

    (Along the same line of thinking, if you don't get the defensive rebound after you make a "stop" or force a bad shot, then the defensive stops aren't particuarly valuable either.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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  11. #86
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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by FlavaDave View Post
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    Shooting percentages of other guys who only shoot at the rim and score primarily on putbacks:

    Erick Dampier .671
    Tyson Chandler .654
    David Lee .642
    Andris Biedrins .613
    Etan Thomas .602
    Samuel Dalembert .599

    I could go on. Foster was 34% in the last month, right? And he is at 46% on the season. Someone commented that one extra make per game would bump it up to 55%. But the truth is, even 55% is bad for that type of player, let alone 46% or 34%.

    OK, lets take 60% as a starting figure for Jeff. If he shot 60%, he would have connected on 18 more baskets, or 36 pts divided by the 27 games he's played and that would put the Pacers with an additional 1.3 ppg. We haven't played any games decided by 1 pt, so him shooting 60% would not have helped one iota.

    This is taking into consideration that he only received one shot attempt per possession. We know this is not true because there are times, he tips it up 2 or 3 times which all count as shot attempts. So, if he has 3 tips on the same play and makes 1, it looks as if the Pacers have lost out on 2 baskets. This is very mis-leading as the Pacers would have not lost out on a single point, yet Jeff is charged with 3 shot attempts.

  12. #87
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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    And his quantity of ORs would be a lot lower.

    Maybe I'm alone here, but that is what drives me nuts more than his FG% - the times where he unsuccessfully has multiple tip-attempts that all miss. That does not deserve a standing ovation, in my opinion.

    He'll finish a game like that with 10+ ORs and some bozo will call into Kevin Lee and say, "Foster dominated the offensive glass tonight, he had ten offensive rebounds." He may get credit for 10 ORs, but he did not dominate. And in fact, he would've been more dominant if he only had six ORs and converted a few more of them into points on the first effort.

    Basketball is about outscoring your opponent, not out rebounding your opponent. If you don't convert the rebounds into points, they aren't particuarly valuable.

    (Along the same line of thinking, if you don't get the defensive rebound after you make a "stop" or force a bad shot, then the defensive stops aren't particuarly valuable either.)

    I understand the point that you are trying to make. Perhaps his offensive stats are somewhat tainted because of this reason. However, what makes up for it, is his numerous tip-outs that keeps the ball alive for another offensive possession, which he receives nothing for as far as stats.

    He only averages 3.7 offensive boards and a total of 8.1. So, I think the 10 offensive boards you are talking about is grossly over-exaggerated. He's probably not been credited for 10 offensive boards but maybe less than 10 times in his career. That's just a guess on my part....I may be wrong.

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    The classic example is the Houston game last year.

    Jeff had 10 ORs, but was 0-7 from the floor.

    Does this happen often? No, but it seems to me that his "biggest" games on the offensive glass are the byproduct of him rebounding his own misses, not his teammates' misses.

    I looked at the last two seasons quickly on basketballreference.com (got to leave for a train in a couple minutes) and he has six games of 8 ORs or more and several more with seven ORs. Yes, ten is an overexaggeration, but not a gross overexaggeration, IMO.

    You get my point (whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant right now), so I'm satisified.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Uh, that doesn't make my logic flawed. Every aspect of the game is relevant, including every missed shot. And I'm sorry that you can't recognize the fact that Jeff should be making shots that he regularly misses rather than spend your time questioning someone's intent.

    Apparently being a diehard Foster fan is like staring directly into the sun.
    I'm not a diehard of anything! Using YOUR FLAWED LOGIC, every aspect of the game is relevant should also apply to Jack or JO should make shots that they regularly miss. You seem to want to make it sound like Foster is costing the Pacers games by missing a few bunnies. He is taking on average 4 shots a game not enough to make a difference either way. I resent that you attack me for questioning someone's intent when you don't have a clue on what is going on. Posters like you, who are trying to equate a pimple on someones posterier as cause of death when in fact they were hit by a train.

  15. #90
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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    I guess I should post this here:

    We are 2-8 in games Foster played LESS than 20 minutes.
    We are 12-5 in games Foster has played MORE than 20 minutes.

    It has been consistent, even in those games early in the season when Foster got big minutes.

    The ONLY teams we have lost to when Foster played more than 20 minutes are: Orlando, NJ, Denver, Chicago, Cleveland

    Foster's value is certainly not tied to his ability to shoot.

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by FlavaDave View Post
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    Shooting percentages of other guys who only shoot at the rim and score primarily on putbacks:

    Erick Dampier .671
    Tyson Chandler .654
    David Lee .642
    Andris Biedrins .613
    Etan Thomas .602
    Samuel Dalembert .599

    I could go on. Foster was 34% in the last month, right? And he is at 46% on the season. Someone commented that one extra make per game would bump it up to 55%. But the truth is, even 55% is bad for that type of player, let alone 46% or 34%.

    Well lets look at those players career average

    Dampier - 46.9%
    Chandler - 51.8%
    David Lee - 61.7%
    Biedrins - 61.8%
    E. Thomas - 51.8%
    Dalembert - 53.6%

    So using your logic the only players getting the job done over their whole career are Biedrins and Lee - two second year players.

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I guess I should post this here:

    We are 2-8 in games Foster played LESS than 20 minutes.
    We are 12-5 in games Foster has played MORE than 20 minutes.

    It has been consistent, even in those games early in the season when Foster got big minutes.

    The ONLY teams we have lost to when Foster played more than 20 minutes are: Orlando, NJ, Denver, Chicago, Cleveland

    Foster's value is certainly not tied to his ability to shoot.
    You're absolutely correct!

    He does so much more than take 4 shots a game. He probably gives the team 4-5 more offensive sets by tipping the ball back out to keep it alive. He sets dozens of picks a game, freeing up his teammates for an uncontested shot. He does a marvelous job of defending the other team's big man. His general all out hustle is the heart and soul of the club.

    I can't understand why anyone would isolate his missing two shots a game from all the positive things that he does and dwell on it.

  18. #93

    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by ALF68 View Post
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    I'm not a diehard of anything! Using YOUR FLAWED LOGIC, every aspect of the game is relevant should also apply to Jack or JO should make shots that they regularly miss.
    It does apply. Everything applies.


    Quote Originally Posted by ALF68 View Post
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    You seem to want to make it sound like Foster is costing the Pacers games by missing a few bunnies.
    If that's what I wanted to say I would say it, but it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ALF68 View Post
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    He is taking on average 4 shots a game not enough to make a difference either way. I resent that you attack me for questioning someone's intent when you don't have a clue on what is going on.
    I resent it too. I'd rather stick to basketball than having to defend false accusations, but hey. And it is enough to make a difference if a game is decided by four or less points. Or eight points if you're counting every shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by ALF68 View Post
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    Posters like you, who are trying to equate a pimple on someones posterier as cause of death when in fact they were hit by a train.
    Posters like me what? You never got to whatever you were going to say.

    I'm not saying the reason we lose is because Foster blows layups. I'm saying that Foster can easily make a lot of the shots he misses. That's it; please don't read any further into that.

  19. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roferr View Post
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    As long as you put it as a "correctable issue", I can buy that. That is what's so maddening. He's missing them point blank. There's times he seems hurried and other times that he just tries to muscle it up. With his jumping ability, there should be no reason that he couldn't control the ball on some occasions and go right back up for a dunk.

    However, a lot of his tips aren't controlled tips....they are a wild stab to hit the backboard to keep the ball alive for another rebound for him or his teammate, but they count as fga's.

    If he only shot the ones that he could actually control and get off a decent shot instead of wildly tipping it, his FG pct would be much higher.


    That is exactly what I've been saying. I'm not trying to bash or nitpick Jeff. It's just one of a handful of things that the team can improve on. Others are

    1)Fast break execution.
    2)1st quarter defense.
    3)Al's post play.

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    That is exactly what I've been saying. I'm not trying to bash or nitpick Jeff. It's just one of a handful of things that the team can improve on. Others are

    1)Fast break execution.
    2)1st quarter defense.
    3)Al's post play.

    And it is enough to make a difference if a game is decided by four or less points. Or eight points if you're counting every shot.

    Sounds like nitpicking to me.

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    If I'm the coach I tell Jeff he needs to dunk every shot he gets within 5' of the basket. If he doesn't dunk it (or attempt the dunk) he comes out. The guys got plenty of hops why is he such a weiny in traffic? Remember when he was younger it was said he could dunk from the free throw line. Dunk the damn thing Jeffry!

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Roferr View Post
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    You're absolutely correct!

    He does so much more than take 4 shots a game. He probably gives the team 4-5 more offensive sets by tipping the ball back out to keep it alive. He sets dozens of picks a game, freeing up his teammates for an uncontested shot. He does a marvelous job of defending the other team's big man. His general all out hustle is the heart and soul of the club.

    I can't understand why anyone would isolate his missing two shots a game from all the positive things that he does and dwell on it.
    I can understand why people focus on his shortcomings. It's because his game is usually unpleasant to watch. He has a horrible looking shot and misses too many layups. He might only score 4 points in a game. ...and it is frustrating that someone so athletic, so highly paid and with so much time, cannot develop a jumper better than mine.

    But without Foster, this team would be a mess. He brings nearly every intangible a team could possibly want. He has quick hands, length, athleticism and a nose for the ball, he is a sturdy defender with quick feet, he is a team player, he can guard a large variety of difficult to defend players...and the man just plays as hard as he can all the time.

    If he ever developed a solid jumper he would be an all star. There is hope. He certainly has improved his free throw stroke.

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Well lets look at those players career average

    Dampier - 46.9%
    Chandler - 51.8%
    David Lee - 61.7%
    Biedrins - 61.8%
    E. Thomas - 51.8%
    Dalembert - 53.6%

    So using your logic the only players getting the job done over their whole career are Biedrins and Lee - two second year players.
    thats not fair - Etan is shooting well this year (the first year he has played starters minutes)
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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Heh, I'd love to ask Jeff this question:

    KM: "Hey Jeff, how's yer ol' lady?"

    Jeff: "My... ol' lady?"

    KM: "Ya, yer ol' lady... cuz if yer *******'n is anything like your layups, you couldn't hit the g-spot on a 12-lb p****y."

    [Shameless "Me, Myself, and Irene" reference]

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    Default Re: Foster's shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Here's a stat.


    25 misses at the rim. That would be near 2 extra points/game if he'd made all of them. Even if half of them were eventually "makes" then it'd still be 1 extra point/game. It's not the worst of the Pacers' problems but that doesn't make it any less significant.



    46% is not a good shooting percentage for anyone who takes most of their shots within 3 feet of the basket.
    No, those were just for December, and of those 11 games I think 2, perhaps 3 featured no misses (like 2-2, 1-1, and the 3-3 the other night).

    Call it 9 for sure. Call it 24 for the nice divide by 3. 8 shots every 3 games he has left at the rim, so in those bad December games he has consistantly left 5-6 points on the floor, not 1 or 2.

    From 10 feet I understand, from 1 foot not so much. It's worse than missing a couple of FTs.

    In any case I clearly didn't make this a blame Foster for losses thread. I just said dude is missing a ton of layups for some reason, and it's a fact.


    And I'm pretty certain he didn't need PD to point it out as an issue, I'd guess that it's something that has been bugging him too. 1-2 games you just figure that was the night, but then it just kept happening.


    Like I say, Tinsley has long been the king of missing quality looks near the rim. People question his shot SELECTION, but the issue is actually his shot EXECUTION. You back a guy to the block and have a free space for the quick bank shot you simply must make that.

    But in December Tins is still shooting better than Jeff and a lot smaller PCT of his shots come from in close. Hopefully the Philly game was the beginning of a fix for Jeff.

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