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Foster's shooting

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  • Foster's shooting

    Okay, in the Denver thread a few weeks ago some folks had a total meltdown when I questioned how useful Foster's 12 offensive boards were that night. I feel like I successfully defended the point when I went down the list of each of his credited O-boards for that game showing how often they were from his own misses or were just slaps at the ball rather than a true new possession.

    So I'm browsing the stats today and looking at shooting for December. As I skim the numbers most things look as expected. I noticed that Jack's shot is coming around and with his FTs his PPS is one of the better totals for the team this month (good sign) and while looking at other decent minutes players I suddenly saw a Pacer with a SUB 1.00 PPS...less than 1 make per 2 shots (with no FTs at all).

    Who was it? Jeff Foster. 0.96 PPS, 34% from the floor. Think about that. Review his shot charts. Jeff isn't shooting from JO spots, let alone from the outside like Al or Granger.

    34% on an almost exclusive diet of inside passes and offensive rebound "putbacks" (if you can call slap shots a putback). Do you realize just how awful the 34% figure is for a rebound specialist PF? Guys like Dale would throw it down at 55% or better since almost everything was a dunk or layup.

    His shooting makes Tinsley's December effort look good...and it's not. Both of them have been the kings of the blown 1 foot attempt.

    Not sure what it means, I just know it sucks for Pacers fans. That's a lot of points being left on the floor every night that are very makeable.

  • #2
    Re: Foster's shooting

    This isn't anything new... it was to the point last year that I would hear people call missing an easy layup "pulling a Foster" or "Fostering that one," and so on.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Foster's shooting

      Originally posted by SoupIsGood View Post
      This isn't anything new... it was to the point last year that I would hear people call missing an easy layup "pulling a Foster" or "Fostering that one," and so on.
      I've commented quite often about players blowing layups/dunks by saying "He Fostered that bunny"... "Ohhhhh...Nooooo... He Fostered it!"

      Any player can "Foster" a gimme.... but only Foster can do it with regularity.







      -Bball
      Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

      ------

      "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

      -John Wooden

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Foster's shooting

        The worst part is, there's no reason he shouldn't be making those, along with short jumpers. I think Jeff will have to see a therapist if he ever plans on hitting those shots reliably, at this point.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Foster's shooting

          Originally posted by SoupIsGood View Post
          This isn't anything new... it was to the point last year that I would hear people call missing an easy layup "pulling a Foster" or "Fostering that one," and so on.
          Gnome and I were discussing it during the Jazz game, and I've long since realized that both Jeff and Tinsley are kings of leaving it short from up close.

          That's why I often defend Tinsley. Not for missing, but against the idea that his shot selection is poor. It's not (usually), it's just that when you miss 8 shots in the paint your FG% looks like crap, and then when people reflect on it they think of those other long shots you missed instead.


          However, I started the thread because Foster's FG% is crazy low, even by Jeff standards. He's been above 50% the last 2 years and is even at 45% for the year this season. It's just that lately..."ack!" to quote Bill the Cat.

          Maybe the new/old ball will fix the problem.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Foster's shooting

            The Pacers are averaging 95.8ppg this season. What do you think that number would be if Jeff made 55% of his field goals?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Foster's shooting

              Let's put it this way. If Foster was the kicker on a football team, he would bring the excitement back to the extra point attempt!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Foster's shooting

                I've read this thread several times and I've been trying to decide whether I should respond and if so how should I respond.

                I want to ask a question.

                What do you think would be a good shooting percentage for Jeff - what should he be shooting?

                1) I would guess there is one shot attempt per game that is what I call a Hail Mary. The one where Jeff barely gets a fingertip on the ball (above, around, between, under two defenders) but Jeff is able to tip it towards the basket, but it really has no chance of going in. But maybe it hits the rim or glass and maybe either Jeff or some other Pacer is able to put it back in. So the Pacers score when otherwise they wouldn't.

                If we just throw that one attempt per game out, then Jeff is shooting 61% for the season.

                OK, so you think that is crazy - alright .

                2) what about the times Jeff has multiple tips, multiple shot attempts in a row. I would like to know what % of the time either Jeff eventually gets the ball in the basket or the Pacers score on the possession anyway. I'm sure it is a lot higher than 45%.


                I could go on and on with similar type of things, but let me stop right here and answer the question of "how many points is left on the floor every night because of Jeff. My answer - very few. If someone would go back and watch every minute Jeff has played and if they did a complete breakdown of his shots missed, and how often the Pacers scored on those possessions anyway and how many extra possesions Jeff has gotten for the team to begin with - Jeff shooting at 45% is a net plus for the Pacers offense. I'm not saying Jeff is a net plus for the Pacers defense or rebounding - we already know that - but Jeff is a net plus for the Pacers offense.

                Having said all that, Jeff should be shooting about 55% and I believe by the end of the season he will be. He's had a few "horrible" games recently, but that won't last.

                I do find it interesting that Jeff is being "graded" on his shooting. Are we going to start "grading" Tinsley on his shot blocking. I know that is a crazy comparison - but it is worth mentioning

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Foster's shooting

                  I've said the same thing about Foster a number of times.

                  The best way to do this is to pull the play-by-play, as you can occasionally find in the archives.

                  The only way to properly count his ORs is to subtact his missed putbacks.

                  Lots of fans cheer about the "great hustle" but the hustle when he gets 2 or more offensive rebounds on the same play but it wouldn't even be necessary if he had any basketball skills beyond just having a knack for where the ball is going.

                  Jeff Foster might be the second-most overrated player in the league.

                  Behind Stehpen Jackson.

                  Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                  Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                  Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                  Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                  And life itself, rushing over me
                  Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                  Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Foster's shooting

                    Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                    I do find it interesting that Jeff is being "graded" on his shooting. Are we going to start "grading" Tinsley on his shot blocking. I know that is a crazy comparison - but it is worth mentioning
                    We'll make a deal - we won't need to grade Jeff on his shooting when he has enough strength and discipline to control a rebound cleanly and pass it to somebody else.

                    Why does he think he should attempt a putback anyway? He shoots a Stephen Jackson like percentage on so-called high percentage shots.

                    For all the angst over Stephen Jackson shooting a low percentage on low-percentage shots (which I'm happy to complain about, of course), at least we can wish he'd attempt better shots. Jeff... well, he just needs to accept this limitation on his game and pass the ball.

                    I think the shot charts would show us that Jeff's 8-to-10 foot jumper actually increases his FG% over his put-back %. Now that's scary, but I know I feel better with that shot than when I watch his put-back efforts.

                    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                    And life itself, rushing over me
                    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Foster's shooting

                      Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                      I do find it interesting that Jeff is being "graded" on his shooting. Are we going to start "grading" Tinsley on his shot blocking. I know that is a crazy comparison - but it is worth mentioning
                      Career BPG:
                      Tinsley: .3
                      Foster: .3
                      PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Foster's shooting

                        Originally posted by MagicRat View Post
                        Career BPG:
                        Tinsley: .3
                        Foster: .3


                        :

                        MagicRat making a "basketball post". Priceless.
                        Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                        Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                        Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                        Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                        And life itself, rushing over me
                        Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                        Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Foster's shooting

                          Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                          I've read this thread several times and I've been trying to decide whether I should respond and if so how should I respond.

                          I want to ask a question.

                          What do you think would be a good shooting percentage for Jeff - what should he be shooting?

                          1) I would guess there is one shot attempt per game that is what I call a Hail Mary. The one where Jeff barely gets a fingertip on the ball (above, around, between, under two defenders) but Jeff is able to tip it towards the basket, but it really has no chance of going in. But maybe it hits the rim or glass and maybe either Jeff or some other Pacer is able to put it back in. So the Pacers score when otherwise they wouldn't.

                          If we just throw that one attempt per game out, then Jeff is shooting 61% for the season.

                          OK, so you think that is crazy - alright .

                          2) what about the times Jeff has multiple tips, multiple shot attempts in a row. I would like to know what % of the time either Jeff eventually gets the ball in the basket or the Pacers score on the possession anyway. I'm sure it is a lot higher than 45%.


                          I could go on and on with similar type of things, but let me stop right here and answer the question of "how many points is left on the floor every night because of Jeff. My answer - very few. If someone would go back and watch every minute Jeff has played and if they did a complete breakdown of his shots missed, and how often the Pacers scored on those possessions anyway and how many extra possesions Jeff has gotten for the team to begin with - Jeff shooting at 45% is a net plus for the Pacers offense. I'm not saying Jeff is a net plus for the Pacers defense or rebounding - we already know that - but Jeff is a net plus for the Pacers offense.

                          Having said all that, Jeff should be shooting about 55% and I believe by the end of the season he will be. He's had a few "horrible" games recently, but that won't last.

                          I do find it interesting that Jeff is being "graded" on his shooting. Are we going to start "grading" Tinsley on his shot blocking. I know that is a crazy comparison - but it is worth mentioning
                          Finally a voice of reason! .

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Foster's shooting

                            I don't understand factoring out "Hail Mary" shot attempts. Those count as rebounds and so positively effect a statistical view of Foster. The fact that they weigh down his FG% would seem to be an evening out of the situation. After all, how useful is a "rebound" that can only be used for a "Hail Mary" attempt at a score? And I definately don't agree with simply reducing his FG attempts by one to account for them, especially since any made "Hail Mary"s are already factored positively into his FG% so just taking a shot attempt off his % is counting all his made ones and taking out all his missed ones (and probably a whole lot more since I doubt these "Hail Mary"s comprise 25% of his shot attempts).

                            As for the "what happens eventually" argument, how does that factor in? You already see his offensive rebound numbers and his fg% so you can have a perspective on how often he eventually gets the ball in the bucket (82games has his current "Tip Ins" e% at .364 and comprising 10% of his shot attempts). Is someone else getting a rebound off of a Foster miss supposed to count positively for Foster? Does it count positive for whoever shot the attempt that Foster rebounded in the first place?

                            I'm really dissapointed in the lack of "hoop in the driveway" jokes in here.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Foster's shooting

                              IMO...Jeff's hasty attempts at putbacks is a byproduct from years of typically not getting the foul call on his putback attempts. Add to the fact he isn't a very good free throw shooter and he probably thinks getting the ball back up on the rim as quickly as possible gives him the best chance at getting points out of his efforts.... at least he's keeping the ball alive for another Pacer to clean it up or reset. There is alot of value in that.

                              Comment

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