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Thread: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    Can we lay off the scapegoats for now please. I swear here are people here that would bash our players even if we one the title, then there are people who think choosing the popular scapegoat makes them look smart. I didn't even see this game but sounds like the team had a chance to beat statisticly the best team in the league. How can someone blame Jack when Tinsley shot 3 for 18. I won't blame anyone for there perfomance in a game I didn't see but you people **** me off.
    Sounds like you've been taking anger management classes from David Harrison.
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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    I didn't see the first half but I did watch this second half. I didn't really see anything out of the ordinary as the game was called.

    I saw Tinsley penetrating and tossing up dipsy do's and other assorted shots that were either altered or he was forced to eat. I didn't see much in the way of fouls either.

    Someone commented on the Utah announcers... I actually thought they were OK in the 2nd half. Not nearly as homerific as I was expecting.

    Since the Pacers were already down by the 2nd half it's hard to comment too much since they did manage to tread water and make a few inroads as the 4th qtr wore on. I thought Armstrong's energy and action leadership did wonders to keep us in this game during the 4th qtr. Unfortunately it wasn't enough.

    Did I see someone miss a blockout at a crucial point in the game? I know we gave up a garbage bucket or two that never should've happened.

    I'm not 100% certain that the ball didn't touch the rim on that one Utah putback that was waved off due to a shot clock violation. I think it might've just grazed the rim. Pretty sure you could see the ball change direction ever so slightly in the replay. But... that's not what the ref said and they only showed the replay once and moved on and didn't make a big deal about it.

    On the jump ball... It sure looked to me like a Pacer (Tinsley?) was just not hustling to the ball and that allowed Utah to get it and push it up the floor for a basket. I missed the replay but maybe someone else can comment. Maybe the camera angle only made it look like a Pacer would've had it easily if he had went for it rather than waiting for it to get to him. Anybody else see this?

    Utah is a disciplined team. It's going to be tough beating a team like Utah... particularly when we're not a disciplined team and prone to a little too much 1 on 1 and forced (and/or quick) shots.

    Live by the Tinsley... die by the Tinsley. He didn't help us much today but the past couple of games he was a big part of the wins. Maybe disciplined teams are always going to give him trouble. Particularly when we don't have a clear advantage to exploit.



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    Huge Member heywoode's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    I was at this game, and I thought most of the team outside of JO and DA had just an awful performance. It really didn't look like anyone outside of those two were into the game at all. Most of the Pacers were just going through the motions.

    Jackson was bad, but Tinsley was worse. I have been impressed that JT has played every game, and for the most part he has been a changed man this season. All that says to me is that his trade value has never been higher. I don't think anything else needs to be said about him.

    I thought Utah played a decent game, but let's face it, they let us get back in it after beating us down to a 21 point deficit. Not a great performance, by any means. They did what it took to win, or at least dodged the bullets that were coming their way. Pacers could've and should've won this game.

    The Pacemates looked great! Wow do I love those Christmas outfits...

    I won 4 club level tix in a raffle for March of Dimes, so it was just awful having to sit 5th row of Section 108 for $10 a ticket! My wife and I took another couple and we had a good time, despite the loss...

    Also, as has been commented on already, I was laughing quite a bit at the Illinois orange in the audience....The Utah fans that were close to us were a bit annoying, but I chalk it up to the fact that the Jazz were pushing us around in our own house for most of the game...



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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Sounds like you've been taking anger management classes from David Harrison.
    Please give me an example of the last time you have made a positive post. If Jackson made the last second winner in a title game, I would expect you to be here talking about how he should have passed it, while demanding a trade.

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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Quote Originally Posted by heywoode View Post
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    I thought Utah played a decent game, but let's face it, they let us get back in it after beating us down to a 21 point deficit. Not a great performance, by any means. They did what it took to win, or at least dodged the bullets that were coming their way. Pacers could've and should've won this game.

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    I think you are way underestimating the Jazz. They are extremely aggressive, they execute their offense to perfection (that doesn't mean you make every shot though) they are disciplined, they are unselfish, they play with constant and consistant effort. I could go on and on. Certainly they aren't the most talented team in the NBA - they don't dazzle you with great athleticism or great one-on-one play - but they certainly play the right way

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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Granger get lost on defense - he gets backdoored a lot, several times today, he is often out of position. His problem is not defensive talent because he can play one-on-one defense very well - but in the team concept he is either thinking too much and therefore is always a step late or he isn't thinking at all.
    Exactly. I have lots of hope for him. I mean I'd be shocked if that doesn't change as he learns the game. He just had a set of offensive "I get it" moments this year IMO which has made that end of the court a lot better for him.

    And the only reason I get on the topic so much is because people think he is a stopper still. That was the first identity he latched onto LAST YEAR, but that focus changed.

    I'm one in the "Pippen-like" camp and nothing this year has made me feel different about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd
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    Danny Granger has great bball instincts, but thinks too much while he's out there. I've been waiting for over 100 games now for that deer-in-the-headlights look to disappear forever. Still waiting....
    I think he lost that look on offense. He just about found his way into an offensive role since going to the bench. He varies his shots now and goes into plays with confidence. Eventually I think he'll start reading the defensive end the same way.



    I was so busy when I got home that I didn't get to look at the actual box and shot chart till now. If you want to really make yourself ill then go look at the shot chart for the 2nd half, specifically the shots missed by the Pacers IN THE PAINT.

    That's where they lost it.

    The box also reminded me that I was saying to Gnome for most of the game that Tinsley even beats out Jeff as the player most likely to miss a GOOD LOOK in the paint. All game he just couldn't get shots at the rim to fall.

    Oh, and that transition offense

    Funny thing is I've been noting how strong the transition DEFENSE is and this game was another example of that. They turned the Jazz away on several breaks in impressive fashion. I guess they learn how to stop them from what teams do when they break.

    Anyway, the paint misses and some of the defensive numbers just reminds me how winnable the game was all over again, despite constantly trailing.

    If Jack doesn't commit that silly foul on the break that Tins made and then if Jack hits that wide open layup, that game is 2 points with 1 minute to go or something like that.


    This game was going to be my guage for where the team is at, but instead I had to leave just as confused. It was a close game in the end against a very good Utah team and despite some really horrible shooting from the Pacers (lots of open looks missed, it wasn't just Utah defense) so it sort of says "hey, coming along".

    But on the other hand it got ugly at times and they spent the whole game fighting uphill. It really reminded me of the home opener last year vs Philly where they had constant chances to really get close with good stops, but then kept blowing things at the other end unforced. In that game they also spent most of the 2nd trying to get back within 10 only to make a late game surge to get really close before losing.

    That turned out to be a bit of an indicator on the season even prior to Ron asking out. Impressive (like CLE on T'giving) but then massively disappointing (ATL, MIL losses).

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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    Can we lay off the scapegoats for now please. I swear here are people here that would bash our players even if we one the title, then there are people who think choosing the popular scapegoat makes them look smart. I didn't even see this game but sounds like the team had a chance to beat statisticly the best team in the league. How can someone blame Jack when Tinsley shot 3 for 18. I won't blame anyone for there perfomance in a game I didn't see but you people **** me off.
    IRONY ALERT.

    Hands up, who thinks I'm anti-Jackson? Now, hands up who thinks I'm up his rear and constantly defending him?

    I did see the game btw, but thanks for the the hate on the issue. I love being the a-hole that apparently is bashing Jackson when about 18 hours ago I was the a-hole that thought he could do no wrong.

    Pick a freaking side against me at least. Just make sure it's not the one where I hate ANY player if you want to have any shot at being correct. I'd say I was one of the few, maybe only, people at the PD party that didn't have at least one Pacer I didn't care for.


    Tinsley did shoot poorly, but it was Jack that let Fisher torch him for 3 straight makes in the early 3rd when the lead shot up, and then Jack blew a play the other way in that mix too. Terrible stretch for him and it was when the lead went from 10 back up to 14 IIRC.

    Jack in general had one of his worst defensive games of the year IMO. This game was classic Jack, some good stretches and then some train wrecks. In this case his bad portions came at some of the worst possible moments. That's what I mean be "blowing the game". For all the bad shooting, play, etc they had a chance to win and at those crucial moments he stunk.


    For those that didn't see the game, check the play by play. In the 4th at the 4:48 mark Tinsley stole the ball. He was out in front and did go on to make the layup. Jack was trailing, didn't touch the ball, and then just ran over AK for a charge AWAY FROM THE PLAY that cost them the Tinsley made layup that would have cut it to 10 with nearly 5 minutes left.

    The other is from 9 to 7 in the 3rd you see the Fisher makes...those were all plays that Jack did get flat-out beat by Fisher on. And in the mix he missed a 3 and a layup. At that point the game easily could have gone from 10 to 4 points perhaps, certainly 6, but instead went to 14. Then they had to go back to grinding their way into it.

    And then his missed layup that would have cut it to 4 with 58 seconds left. A layup.

    DA was absolutely awesome. The only guy that gave consistent defensive effort while on the floor I thought.
    Seriously, did you see any of his 3pt shots??? 2 of them at least didn't even get within 2 feet of the rim, and I mean wide left and right. One hit the SIDE OF THE BACKBOARD, and not from the baseline but from the 3/4 spot.

    It was so bad that Jack and DA LAUGHED about it (end of half IIRC). I don't mean they didn't care and I didn't mind them doing that, I thought it was warranted becasue the shot was laughably bad.

    It wasn't as funny when he did it a couple of more times. When he finally did make his 1 3 it felt akin to a X-mas miracle. Dude was 1-6 from 3 and I think 2-6 on hitting the rim from 3. Yikes.

    He did look good on his double teaming but on the ball he still gambles and gets beat quite a bit. IMO he's trying to compensate for a lack of speed (comparatively to younger small PGs).


    Even when they were down by 20 I thought that they were still fighting and showing some pride. I wouldn't call this a blowout but just a bad game against a very good team.
    I kept saying to RG that "if they just get it to 10 by 9 minutes" and then "if they just get it to 6 by 3 minutes"...

    Even with the tough opening 4 minutes I said "if the pull this back close in the next 4-5 minutes it really won't be a "slow start", it will just be a small run that's typical in games. Sure enough they did close the gap. Definitely a game they stayed in even when it ebbed away from them.

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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think you are way underestimating the Jazz. They are extremely aggressive, they execute their offense to perfection (that doesn't mean you make every shot though) they are disciplined, they are unselfish, they play with constant and consistant effort. I could go on and on. Certainly they aren't the most talented team in the NBA - they don't dazzle you with great athleticism or great one-on-one play - but they certainly play the right way
    I 100% agree UB which is probably why I am not bouncing off the walls that we lost in this fashion. Utah may have not played their best game, but we played much, much worse. I mean we just aren't gonna win many games when Al doesn't score 10+ let alone zero. I am looking at the positives from this game which is essentially I don't feel we ever really gave up and I thought JO and DA provided fantastic leadership. We have three very, very winnable games coming up. Gotta take care of business.

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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Watching the Jazz in person is fun. Some of you may want to know what I mean when I say the Jazz are probably the best coached team in the NBA (Jazz and Spurs) what are the earmarks of a well coached team. The Jazz players know exactly what they are supposed to do - there is hardly any indecision - there aren't any questions about "what are we supposed to do now"

    Certainly the coach is vital in having a well coached team - but you need the right players also. The Jazz have smart veteran players who know but also accept their roles. Spurs have the same thing. During Rick's first season as the Pistons head coach I often described that team as the best coached team in the NBA. Also don't think if Sloan or Popovich were the pacers coach that they would then be the best coached team in the NBA
    All the FRONT LINE movement. To start the game I said to RG "man, we are going to get punished on the PnR with Williams/Boozer". Then they almost never ran PG PnR. It was all 2 bigs, and the entire front line screening for each other, weaving, give and gos (between BIGS!), curls off each other, all sorts of stuff.

    AK had the ball in his hands the instant Williams fouled out which was consistant with the rest of the game. The shots they dropped were almost always well earned in-the-flow shots. Ignoring the focus on the frontline aspect, this team's offense looked as fundamentally sound as the 2000 Pacers. Seriously.

    Like Buck I often found myself complementing the Jazz plays, even when they didn't work. I'd pay to watch them play again, that's for sure.

    I think the first play of the game for them involved a weaving 3 man game that intentionally ended with Okur rolling off a lane screen to drift out to the arc for the return pass and a set shot 3, which of course he can drop.

    Keep in mind that 2 of the bigs are Euros (AK, Okur), all 3 have good jump shot range. Boozer hit 2 beautiful long elbow jumpers in the 3rd, and they were over JO rather than just open due to bad defense. 4 of Okur's 6 makes were long jump shots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calgary Jazz View Post
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    This is probably the best team we've played all year," said Jermaine O'Neal, who led Indiana with 31 points. "And they really showed why they're the best team in the NBA, because no matter what happens, they don't show very many emotions. They just come out with their hard hat and just play basketball, no matter what."

    Nice words by O'Neal. I do not think the Jazz are the best team, they are good but still to young and inexperienced to be considered as a contenders. Spurs and Dallas are still the best teams in the West, if Jazz somehow will make it to the second round of playoffs I will be more than happy.
    Next year on the other hand baring any major changes they should compete for Western conference title.
    But Indy has yet to face the Spurs, Mavs and Suns yet, so what he said is true. I certainly noticed the level of play difference. It was much better than even the Lakers under Phil Jackson and the Skiles' Bulls.

  10. #35
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Is anyone going to say that we played horribly against a very good team and were still sort of in it at the end? Doesn't that deserve some props? Also, JO was getting touches but simply passing out when he couldn't take the double team on. He's been playing excellent ball of late. Like 03-04 ball. Though I don't remember him being this beastly on D.

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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Sara had some good and some horrendous moments, and should stop trying to be fancy with every pass, most of them are only passes because receiving players go out of their way to catch it, but it is not the road to success.
    well, even more food for "these guys are still too bad to catch Saras passes" jokes here. good to know!

    seriously though, I'd rather see him do the things that help the team win. tonight they lost, so there's nothing positive to take out of this no matter how many assists or points did Saras or anyone else make.. I guess your thoughts are spot on here (he should stop doing what results in turnovers).
    on the other hand, it has been written time and time again that Saras made his name in the World on fancy, "no-look" passes. that (among other things) actually led to some huge successes over the years. that's his style, his trademark. he does it like noone else in the International arena. now good players are immitating that, but he's the original.. sure, one may presume that if the No. 1 PG in the team has a different style of passing, the players might have problems adjusting to to a backup with a more advanced (and rather unique, in a way) style

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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    IRONY ALERT.



    Seriously, did you see any of his 3pt shots??? 2 of them at least didn't even get within 2 feet of the rim, and I mean wide left and right. One hit the SIDE OF THE BACKBOARD, and not from the baseline but from the 3/4 spot.

    It was so bad that Jack and DA LAUGHED about it (end of half IIRC). I don't mean they didn't care and I didn't mind them doing that, I thought it was warranted becasue the shot was laughably bad.

    It wasn't as funny when he did it a couple of more times. When he finally did make his 1 3 it felt akin to a X-mas miracle. Dude was 1-6 from 3 and I think 2-6 on hitting the rim from 3. Yikes.

    He did look good on his double teaming but on the ball he still gambles and gets beat quite a bit. IMO he's trying to compensate for a lack of speed (comparatively to younger small PGs).

    As a matter of fact, I did see DA's poor shooting. True at least two of his 3s essentially didn't draw iron. However, all his shots were open looks either in the flow of the offense or with the shot clock down. Unlike Tins who repeatedly forced shot after mostly unmakeable shot under heavy pressure.

    My comment completely responded to DA's D and intensity in what for him was a significant number of minutes. So while he did not shoot well, I also observed that he was the key energy player whose presence just so coincided with the majority of our runs that significantly reduced their lead.

    Most important were his intensity and composure when almost nobody else outside JO looked like they came ready to compete against a top tier team for 48 minutes. In the context of this particular game, he was our best chance to win from the standpoint of runnning and leading the team. He may be old but at least he gives effort whereas I don't think Tins managed to go over or successfully fight through one screen all night.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kestas View Post
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    well, even more food for "these guys are still too bad to catch Saras passes" jokes here. good to know!

    seriously though, I'd rather see him do the things that help the team win. tonight they lost, so there's nothing positive to take out of this no matter how many assists or points did Saras or anyone else make.. I guess your thoughts are spot on here (he should stop doing what results in turnovers).
    on the other hand, it has been written time and time again that Saras made his name in the World on fancy, "no-look" passes. that (among other things) actually led to some huge successes over the years. that's his style, his trademark. he does it like noone else in the International arena. now good players are immitating that, but he's the original.. sure, one may presume that if the No. 1 PG in the team has a different style of passing, the players might have problems adjusting to to a backup with a more advanced (and rather unique, in a way) style
    I have no objection to "look-away-passes" in any way, however I object to passes thrown where the receiver has to step back, jump in the air or dive out of bounds to get the pass, not to mention the pass where he drove in the lane, went up, couldn't get there, looked away and threw the ball at JO's knees, expecting JO to come back up with the ball, had he dumped it into his hands, perfect, a little above, great, a little below, ok, but at his knees?

    it is those kind of passes that become turnovers, and those he should not throw, or look and make sure the ball comes in the receiver's comfortzone, that's the hallmark of a good PG, delivering a ball in the "comfortzone" of the recipient.
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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think you are way underestimating the Jazz. They are extremely aggressive, they execute their offense to perfection (that doesn't mean you make every shot though) they are disciplined, they are unselfish, they play with constant and consistant effort. I could go on and on. Certainly they aren't the most talented team in the NBA - they don't dazzle you with great athleticism or great one-on-one play - but they certainly play the right way
    I'm not saying they aren't a good team, I just feel like any time you get up by 21 points and don't put the game away, it isn't a GREAT effort or executed perfectly...They were certainly the better team last night, and they are definitely a better team than the Pacers.

    They DID get up by 21 points, so there was a good amount of effort put forth. If we had a 21 point lead on someone and let it become a 2 possession game late in the fourth, I wouldn't characterize our performance as great either....That was all I was saying.

    Even with their 21 point lead, our inferior, outplayed team managed to get back in it with lackluster performances by everyone but two. I wouldn't call that a great performance, or a great team. They are beatable, and should've been beaten last night.



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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    Please give me an example of the last time you have made a positive post. If Jackson made the last second winner in a title game, I would expect you to be here talking about how he should have passed it, while demanding a trade.
    It's interesting that someone who rants about how the whole board pisses him off would demand proof of positive posts.

    I've been around here for ten years, and you've got 75 posts worth of experience to assess my attitude.

    For the record, check out the last thread I started and you'll find it to be quite positive.
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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kestas View Post
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    well, even more food for "these guys are still too bad to catch Saras passes" jokes here. good to know!

    seriously though, I'd rather see him do the things that help the team win. tonight they lost, so there's nothing positive to take out of this no matter how many assists or points did Saras or anyone else make.. I guess your thoughts are spot on here (he should stop doing what results in turnovers).
    on the other hand, it has been written time and time again that Saras made his name in the World on fancy, "no-look" passes. that (among other things) actually led to some huge successes over the years. that's his style, his trademark. he does it like noone else in the International arena. now good players are immitating that, but he's the original.. sure, one may presume that if the No. 1 PG in the team has a different style of passing, the players might have problems adjusting to to a backup with a more advanced (and rather unique, in a way) style
    When you say Runi is the original fancy passer do you mean of international players or ever? Not trying to be mean, just pointing out guys like Pistol Pete were doing it before Saras was even born.

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    Default Re: Post game thread (Jazz 12/17)

    Well I didn't get to see the game or listen to the radio and hear the comments.. followed a lot tell 4th qtr on a poor play by play feed.. was not listing turn overs.. ect.... only made baskets...

    but just some thoughts after reading the "sky is falling" which is this thread...

    I've said it before on a earlier loss... we will not win many games if any when Baby al does not reach double figures period and/or baby al and Granger do not get close to 25 - 30 points.. especially against a top flight team. Those two have to find a way to score period even when plays aren't run for then. It's unfortunate to see Tins 3-18 he should convert better and has so far this year... but as far as shot sellection ect making bad decissions.. well I viewed the photo thread.. there is a pic of Tins taking a shot.. if this shot is indicative of the type of shots he was getting then I have no problem with him taking these kind of shots even if he's not making them... Also with this idea well just stop driving challenging the bigs becuase the ref isn't going to call a foul when you get fouled... you can not do that.. you have to continue to be aggresive. but yes one thing I do agree with about Tins he does get into the mano mano thing too much at times.... and it can hurt if he is not "making" the shot..

    Can not comment of Jax much but it sounds like he was not putting out the effort on the defensive end like he needs to... did he get "trapped" on the offensive foul on the tins lay up.. the player catching him not paying attention and stopped in front of him causing Jax to just run him over...

    One other thing from this game.... can most posters now agree that JO deserves to be listed as one of the top flight bigs in the game.... he clearly had a monster game on both ends... (though his blocks were down slightly) and seemed to outplay (hard to tell from just stats) Boozer who has been getting all the props for playing so well... (leading the MVP hype)

    From what i can tell JO has outplayed ever big he's been matched up with this year, Howard, Bosh, Wallace (Detroit) and now Boozer ...

    To me we were in trouble when Okfur (sp) hit those early three's to start the game.... that was not a good sign showed we were not ready to play solid defense... I mean you have to know he is a main thread to shoot the three, don't give the early three to a big who shoots from the outside when he's fresh and hasn't lost his legs running up and down the court yet....
    You didn't think it was gonna be that easy, did you? ..... You know, for a second there, yeah, I kinda did.....
    Silly rabbit..... Trix are for kids.

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