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Thread: So It's Come To This...

  1. #1
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default So It's Come To This...

    I've not posted much lately. I've not felt there was much to say nor felt there was much I even cared to debate or dicsuss.

    In years past I would be all against Iverson coming to the Pacers but the recent talks have just ranked a shrug from me. No, I don't feel like he and JO could co-exist but I don't see much point in debating that. I don't even really care one way or the other how they'd get along.

    In years past I would also point out how unlikely a big move like that would be for Walsh but right now.... who knows? More importantly, who cares?

    Is AI the type of player that Bird could embrace? Would the Simons be excited to have AI as a drawing card? Would Walsh see this type of move as a great feather in his cap before he rides off in the sunset? I can think of the questions but I don't care about the answers. I'm just numb.

    I'm numb to the blowouts and heartless play. I'm numb to the latest Sjax incident. I'm numb to discussing Tinsley's moods and game. I'm numb to discussing Carlisle's rotations and fascination with playing up or down to the other team. I'm numb in discussing whether AJ was a malcontent or the wisdom of that trade. Numb to whether Al was a pacifier or a missing piece. Numb to Saras vs Tinsley. I'm numb to even caring to set the recorder to record games when I am away from home.

    I used to always know the week's schedule, now I'm barely able to tell you when the next game is, let alone who we're playing.

    I find myself only skimming the morning paper for Pacer news. Not reading every line of everything written.

    I thought it would be odd not having tickets this season and I did catch one game by taking advantage of the 4.00 tix. But really, after some initial trepidation heading into season (thinking I'd like to see this game or that game), I can't say it's bothered me to miss any games in person... or on TV for that matter. The 'jones' is definitely gone.

    I thought this summer looked a lot like putting lipstick on a pig although some were more than willing to tell us we were truly getting rid of the dead weight and real malcontents and this would leave us lean and mean with players better suited to play together and play a different style of ball to boot.

    I liked what I saw to start the season well enough, altho admittedly my expectations were down. I saw this as a transition year and I saw something to build upon. Now, granted, I didn't see why anyone was excited we acquired Marquis Daniels. Not only had he started his Pacer tenure with a questionable off court incident involving public enemies 1A and 1B, but I didn't see much on the court that some were seeing (or said they were seeing). I liked seeing JO in a more limited role and no longer pretending he was a one man wrecking crew down low. We cleared the lanes for more penetration as defenders had to stick with JO or leave him open at the elbow for his jumper. It let other players get more involved with the offense, and it let them have a better chance of success. Not just crumbs tossing up a prayer out of rhythm or trying to make something happen as the shot clock expired after wasting time trying to force something into JO.

    And then IT happened... JO confirmed what I grew to fear all along. He cannot accept anything but 'his way'. It's all about Jermaine. The 800lb gorilla in the living room couldn't be ignored and now we knew what he was all about. Slog ball wasn't necessarily Carlisle's preference.... it was how this team had to play to not anger 'the franchise'. Since then and some initial anger... it's all just turned to a giant shrug from me. What did I expect? What did any of us expect?

    Quite frankly, looking back I don't think JO's been the best player on this team. I don't even think he's been the 2nd best player in recent history. It was Artest and Reggie. Reggie defered and didn't anger "the franchise" and Artest was Artest. I'm not so sure even now he's the best player but then that might be my bias coupled with how bad this team truly is. It's not bad because we're mediocre, it's bad because we're going nowhere. We're closer to going backwards rather than forward.

    I'm not sure what this management could or would do to reenergize me. It's not like they've historically been 'go getters' and all about making things happen.

    There's nobody on this team that inspires confidence in the fanbase that they can will us to victory (certainly no one that inspires me). There's nobody on this team that simply refuses to lose. Maybe someone could rise thru the ranks, but not as long as Jermaine is there swatting them back as they try to fill the void he leaves while falling short yet refusing anything but being "the franchise".

    So yeah... Jermaine has ruined this season for me. He's now just as much of the problem as Tinsley and Sjax. Maybe moreso. It's no longer a question in my mind. He needs to be gone. I've actually reached the point where losing no longer hurts. In fact it sometimes seems like a good thing because it takes away any excuses for management to do the right thing.... eventually...

    This is not to say I'm no longer a 'fan' or to call out who is and isn't a 'fan'. It is to say that this 'team' (from players to management (and owners)) have worn me out.

    They've taken away the passion.

    I'm numb.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  2. #2
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    While I'm venting.... Something else that has worn me out is the people who root less for the uniform and more for who is wearing the uniform.

    Have many of us have forgotten about team basketball and the beauty of the game when everyone plays the right way?

    Or is it OK to lose and muddle along around .500 as long as so and so has a nice couple of boxes in the stat line? Is that a signal that things are looking up and I'm just not seeing it?

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    I feel the same way and I understand completely. I'm even thinking about spending more time actually working. I can't believe this franchise has brought me to this point.








    PS: How about them

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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    team basketball and the beauty of the game when everyone plays the right way?
    That's the essence of basketball right there.

    The problem is, not all of our players truly 'get it' on a consistent basis.

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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    This is not to say I'm no longer a 'fan' or to call out who is and isn't a 'fan'. It is to say that this 'team' (from players to management (and owners)) have worn me out.

    They've taken away the passion.

    I'm numb.

    -Bball
    I'm down to one thread myself because I don't much like this team. If they trade Danny in a package for AI they will snap that thread. I'll still be a fan, just not a hard core fan. I'll follow how they are doing, but win or lose it won't be that big of a deal for me.

    I blame the Internet for the way I feel. The Internet and cut throat reporters who don't care about the team. Used to be reporters would do all they could to protect the team, not any more, and some people want it that way. Not me, all the dirt just makes me dislike players.

    Just another sign of the times were living in.

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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    AMEN AMEN.

    Thank you for the honesty and for putting it out there so eloquently (that saves me a lot of typing).

    It is going to prompt a poll. (It may be a repeat poll I can't remember, but it is timely).
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Whenever I read accounts like Bballs, I always have several very real emotional reactions. I'm going to try and verbalize my reactions.

    Let me first say, that certainly anyone is entitled to feel as they feel.

    1) When I read accounts like Bball's I first feel kinda sad as in - wow the Pacers lost another fan.

    2) Then I feel, denial - I don't believe it, it is just trendy right now for longtime fans to post the "I don't care anymore" thread.


    3) Then I feel a little anger - well boo-hoo - so the team isn't great and things aren't just as you would like it - so what do you do you bail on the team. You take your ball and go home - you just give up. Sounds like you are being a little selfish and immature.

    4) Then I ask myself, why don't I just bail on the team - seems to be the "thing to do" I certainly could use the money I spend on other things. I could spend time doing other things that are more productive. Who needs the headache - I know I sure don't.

    5) but in the end, I remember how much joy I've gotten from being a Pacers fan over the years. I remember the 80's and how lonely it was - I remember all the fun times since. Aand in the end I decide no, I won't give up on them, I'll continue to watch every game and that I still really get excited for every game and look forward to whatever the next game is.


    So there you have it, my honest thoughts and feelings on the matter.

  8. #8
    Member Knucklehead Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    While I'm venting.... Something else that has worn me out is the people who root less for the uniform and more for who is wearing the uniform.

    Have many of us have forgotten about team basketball and the beauty of the game when everyone plays the right way?

    Or is it OK to lose and muddle along around .500 as long as so and so has a nice couple of boxes in the stat line? Is that a signal that things are looking up and I'm just not seeing it?

    -Bball
    I too am numb. I just don't give a damn anymore. I've watched about 5-10 minutes of Pacer games on TV this year. A lot of the threads lately have people sniping at each other, so I don't spend much time here either.
    I've been a fan since the beginning. That's longer than many of you have been breathing air, so don't bother calling me a bandwagoner.

    It's not the .500 record, it's what the nba game has become and now the pacers are in the thick of it. I'm sick and tired of Jax2, Artest, and now rallying around AI. Jeez. The coaches don't seem to have the keys to the funny farm. It's not about winning for me; it's about enjoying something that's done with integrity and character and teamwork just for the love of it. That's not happening here anymore.
    Don't thank me, I'll kill ya.

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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knucklehead Warrior View Post
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    I too am numb. I just don't give a damn anymore. I've watched about 5-10 minutes of Pacer games on TV this year. A lot of the threads lately have people sniping at each other, so I don't spend much time here either.
    I've been a fan since the beginning. That's longer than many of you have been breathing air, so don't bother calling me a bandwagoner.

    It's not the .500 record, it's what the nba game has become and now the pacers are in the thick of it. I'm sick and tired of Jax2, Artest, and now rallying around AI. Jeez. The coaches don't seem to have the keys to the funny farm. It's not about winning for me; it's about enjoying something that's done with integrity and character and teamwork just for the love of it. That's not happening here anymore.
    EXACTLY. That's why I've posted the Polls I have. I can no longer say I'm a fan of the NBA...and if I don't like what the P's have become, why bother?
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    If anyone bothered to watch the IU-Kentucky game on Saturday.... now that was basketball!!

    Anyone bothered watching any Butler games..... not that is basketball!!!

    Or if you bothered to catch any of the "Bird Era" games on ESPN Classic celebrating his 50th.... now that was basketball!!!

    College Basketball is a far better product than the NBA. The NBA game, the way it was played and officiated prior to the mid 90's was a far better game than the poor excuse of basketball that Stern has been peddling the last 10 years.

    It aint the Pacers I have became unhappy with. It is the NBA as a whole. It is sooooo obvious that generating revenue has became more important than the purity of the game.

    I used to love watching ANY NBA game, not just the Pacers. But over the years it has progressed to the point that I gave up my season tix, attend no more than a handful of games a year and dont watch ANY other team on TV but the Pacers. Even then, while the Pacers may be on my TV, I am doing other things and dont watch every second religiously like I used to.

    Again, that is not a knock on the Pacers. It is a knock on what the NBA has become. Now a days I am watching college ball, it is the best basketball being played in America today.

  11. #11
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by naptown View Post
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    If anyone bothered to watch the IU-Kentucky game on Saturday.... now that was basketball!!

    Anyone bothered watching any Butler games..... not that is basketball!!!

    Or if you bothered to catch any of the "Bird Era" games on ESPN Classic celebrating his 50th.... now that was basketball!!!

    College Basketball is a far better product than the NBA. The NBA game, the way it was played and officiated prior to the mid 90's was a far better game than the poor excuse of basketball that Stern has been peddling the last 10 years.

    It aint the Pacers I have became unhappy with. It is the NBA as a whole. It is sooooo obvious that generating revenue has became more important than the purity of the game.

    I used to love watching ANY NBA game, not just the Pacers. But over the years it has progressed to the point that I gave up my season tix, attend no more than a handful of games a year and dont watch ANY other team on TV but the Pacers. Even then, while the Pacers may be on my TV, I am doing other things and dont watch every second religiously like I used to.

    Again, that is not a knock on the Pacers. It is a knock on what the NBA has become. Now a days I am watching college ball, it is the best basketball being played in America today.


    I could not disagree more. The NBA is by far the best basketball being played. I'm not going to get into the arguments for the NBA, mainly because I don't want to turn this thread into a college vs NBA discussion. But I did want to state my opinion for the record. I didn't watch the IU vs KY game. But 59-54 sounds like a "boring" game (of course I love defense, so maybe I would have liked the game, but most people judge whether an NBA game is any good by how many points a team scores.

  12. #12
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Whenever I read accounts like Bballs, I always have several very real emotional reactions. I'm going to try and verbalize my reactions.

    Let me first say, that certainly anyone is entitled to feel as they feel.

    1) When I read accounts like Bball's I first feel kinda sad as in - wow the Pacers lost another fan.

    2) Then I feel, denial - I don't believe it, it is just trendy right now for longtime fans to post the "I don't care anymore" thread.


    3) Then I feel a little anger - well boo-hoo - so the team isn't great and things aren't just as you would like it - so what do you do you bail on the team. You take your ball and go home - you just give up. Sounds like you are being a little selfish and immature.

    4) Then I ask myself, why don't I just bail on the team - seems to be the "thing to do" I certainly could use the money I spend on other things. I could spend time doing other things that are more productive. Who needs the headache - I know I sure don't.

    5) but in the end, I remember how much joy I've gotten from being a Pacers fan over the years. I remember the 80's and how lonely it was - I remember all the fun times since. Aand in the end I decide no, I won't give up on them, I'll continue to watch every game and that I still really get excited for every game and look forward to whatever the next game is.


    So there you have it, my honest thoughts and feelings on the matter.
    I have some similar reactions, not exactly the same though.

    The main thing I remember is all the times that I was rooting for enjoyable and "right way" Colts and Pacers teams when most locals were not taking interest because they knew they'd get let down or were waiting on the team to prove they could really win.

    Reggie played in front of many half-empty stands in his time in Indy. Manning had 2 of his games blacked out in Indy just 3 years ago.

    So frankly I don't believe the BS from fans that make attendance promises and talk big about how the team "lost them". This hasn't been Packer-fan land or the Knicks even.

    Indy is Atlanta part 2 in terms of fan support. Half interest and only if the team is a top 3-4 contender to start the season. If there's the slightest chance that they are "only" going to make the playoffs then the locals jump ship and rant about how the team lost them.

    The Colts have been a class act, but listen to talk radio today and tell me honestly if they are getting any more support out of fans than the Pacers. This city has never earned the right to hold teams accountable because they've NEVER supported them through the tough times.

    It's not like fans were flocking to see the the 96-97 Pacers like they did the 99-00 team.


    Today you will hear Jackson and the Colts defense both thrown under the bus in a similar manner. You will also hear Pacers and Colts management blamed for creating those roster situations. DW/Bird for putting up with Jackson, Polian for not drafting more defense.

    Funny how the main thing connecting to the 2 issues is LOSING. Really it's the ONLY thing connecting the issues. Tells me all I need to know about local fans. The fault isn't behavior or how the player conducts himself on the field, the fault is simply failure.


    College vs NBA - strongly agree with Buck. NCAA is basketball is slower and sloppier (and features just as many character issues, unless you really believe all those players are experiencing college exactly the same as other students).

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Not sure how many of you saw this blog by Mark Montieth, but I think it is interesting and it belongs in this thread. There does seem to be a double standard on player behavior. Yes I know Marvin Harrison is one of the best wide receivers to ever play, but if any Pacer ever did what he did the Pacers player would have been crucified by the fans.


    http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/

    December 02, 2006
    Who do you love?
    Posted by Mark Montieth


    Most sports fans around Indianapolis these days love the Colts, and love to dislike the Pacers.

    It’s understandable, given the (very) recent histories of the two franchises. It also happens to be illogical, not that logic figures into the thinking of pleasure-seeking fans.

    Fans are down on the Pacers because they’ve had off-court legal issues, a few of their players have had injury problems for the past few seasons, a couple of them display questionable attitudes on the court and they’ve gone deep into the playoffs just once in the last six seasons.

    Of course the Colts have had none of those issues the past couple of years.

    Well, except for ...

    * Mike Doss firing several shots from a handgun outside an Ohio nightclub, Cato June failing to appear to face charges of driving with a suspended license, Vincent Burns being charged with disorderly conduct outside a nightclub, Nick Harper being charged with domestic battery and Joseph Jefferson driving while intoxicated _ to name a few.

    * Marvin Harrison’s public displays of attitude in last Sunday’s game against Philadelphia.

    * The ongoing intrigue over the weekly injury reports, the extended absences of Bob Sanders, Brandon Stokley and others and the mysterious loss of Corey Simon.

    * Losing four of their last seven playoff games.

    The suggestion here isn’t to have less regard for the Colts or more for the Pacers. It’s that there’s not nearly as much difference between the franchises as most people believe.
    What we have here is an example of the nuances of public perception and the ease with which it can shift. Damn those long-term realities.

    The Colts are loved more because they’re winning more. Today, anyway. But we know they’re unlikely to match the Pacers’ ongoing run of 16 playoff appearances in the last 17 years, with the only no-show attributable mostly to injuries. We also know fans will turn on the Colts if they fail to advance deep into the playoffs again this season. Nobody likes to be strung along.

    The Pacers still suffer from the public relations disaster of the brawl at the Palace of Auburn Hills two years ago, a truly bizarre and complicated experience. Never mind that the legal system ultimately put more blame on the fans than the players. The image of Pacers swinging with fans in the stands is indelible. The Club Rio incident in October furthered their negative image. Funny thing, though. There was no outrage over Doss’ actions outside a club in May of 2005. Stephen Jackson’s just happened to be local.

    The Colts also have the benefit of two pristine faces of the franchise, Peyton Manning and Tony Dungy. They might as well be nicknamed Mary and Kay, because together they cover a lot of blemishes. The Pacers have plenty of likeable players, too, but they haven’t had anyone with the cachet of a Manning or Dungy since the retirement of Reggie Miller _ who, by the way, had plenty of detractors until his final few seasons, when his self-discipline and humanity became too obvious to ignore.

    On the whole, the NFL has a huge, built-in image-making advantage over the NBA. Its players are greater in number, play on 100-yard fields and are shrouded by the equipment they wear. Phil Richards’ story in the Star on Friday told how most of the Colts aren’t even recognized in public. Anonymity has its rewards, one of which is leading fans to assume the best.

    NBA players perform naked by comparison, working on an intimate 94-foot court with in-their-face cameras catching every wince, every dirty look, every imperfection.

    Nobody really knows Nick Harper, so when his wife slashed him with a knife the night before a playoff game it was quickly forgotten. Imagine the outrage if that had happened to Jackson.

    It doesn’t hurt the NFL that its teams play just one game a week. A good team like the Colts gets seven days of positive vibes off every win. If the Pacers win on Sunday they still have to play three, sometimes four, more games that week. A loss is always just around the corner, even for the best teams. In our frantic culture plagued by short attention spans, a winning NFL team comes across like a favorite TV show. An NBA team is more like a college class; you have to pay attention nearly every day to keep up.

    Love the Colts? Hate the Pacers?

    Go ahead. Just remember. Love is blind, but reality is complicated.

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    I will take the style of ball being played and the way the game is officiated in college over what the NBA is offering right now. That is just me and how I feel about what I have seen with my own two eyes over the last few years.

    I am not looking for a debate nor am I talking about character issues or pampered athletes. I am talking about what is happening on the court itself.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    I felt a similar way towards the end of last season. I lashed out on both Pacer boards. My lashing out can be found in my sig. I blamed the boards for my negativity. I spent a good portion of time not checking in on the current rumors etc... that can be found within the digital pages of the internet. I came back fresh for this season. My advice is to just take a break from the negativity. Try to just watch the games, don't come in here afterwards, don't check NBA.com for the box score, don't go to Pacers.com for postgame quotes etc... just watch and form you're own opinions without being swayed by outside sources.

    If you avoid the Chicken Little's, extreme fanboys, trolls, quit counting the number of turnover's or three pointers a player is taking and just watch the games, you'll realize things aren't as bad as they seem. There is a such thing as overanalizing. The Pacers are @ .500 and they've played 14 of 22 on the road 18 of those came with 1 or less days in between. If they Pacers keep playing at the current rate ( based on home and away winning %'s) they'll end up with 46 wins.



    P.S. I agree JO isn't my fav, but he's still pretty damn good. In fact there are 6 guys on this team I feel that same way about.

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    Member RWB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    So frankly I don't believe the BS from fans that make attendance promises and talk big about how the team "lost them". This hasn't been Packer-fan land or the Knicks even.

    Indy is Atlanta part 2 in terms of fan support.
    I don't entirely disagree with the point Seth is making, but just a reminder that an example like the Packers and you can include the Kings or Blazers are teams who have no competition by other pro teams. It is easier when you're the only game in town.

    Also I believe it's hard to compare metro Indy with the populations and possible number of people available to attend an Atlanta or New York game. Of course that's also the reason no one should be surprised when small market teams have to seriously consider relocating when their leases expire.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Member Knucklehead Warrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Today you will hear Jackson and the Colts defense both thrown under the bus in a similar manner. You will also hear Pacers and Colts management blamed for creating those roster situations. DW/Bird for putting up with Jackson, Polian for not drafting more defense.

    Funny how the main thing connecting to the 2 issues is LOSING. Really it's the ONLY thing connecting the issues. Tells me all I need to know about local fans. The fault isn't behavior or how the player conducts himself on the field, the fault is simply failure.
    Seth, although you generally have very good thoughtful opinions, here I have to disagree. Many fans are complaining about both teams but for DIFFERENT reasons. In the Colts case their playing flaws are being exposed even to those fans who've worn blinders all season. Now that we see them for what they are, some fans are overreacting now that their SuperBowl hopes are perceived as diminished. For the Pacers, many of us will support the team even if they're .500 IF we also don't have to put up with all the drama. That's not to say we won't put up with SOME drama, it's just now gone on for so long, that Bball is numb.

    Is losing a common denominator? Sure it is. But that doesn't make it THE REASON, it's only compounding an already aggravating situation.

    You could argue that Jax2 would be a happier camper if the Pacers were .750 right now, and therefore the benching wouldn't have taken place. Losing however has little impact on his extracurricular knuckleheadedness and we can complain about it until the cows come home regardless of the Pacers' record. Was the support for the Ps very high with the championship caliber teams? Yeah, they were winning all right and winning will drag out the bandwagon fans. THOSE fans will also disappear when something less than championship status arrives. But the fans complaining here are not those people. They can tolerate some losing and have for many years. But add in knuckleheadedness and some just go numb.
    Don't thank me, I'll kill ya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/

    December 02, 2006
    Who do you love?
    Posted by Mark Montieth

    Of course the Colts have had none of those issues the past couple of years.

    Well, except for ...

    * Mike Doss firing several shots from a handgun outside an Ohio nightclub, Cato June failing to appear to face charges of driving with a suspended license, Vincent Burns being charged with disorderly conduct outside a nightclub, Nick Harper being charged with domestic battery and Joseph Jefferson driving while intoxicated _ to name a few.
    That's nice and all for MM to come to the PAcers rescue, but he forgot one important thing.

    *Mike Doss? Must have learned from his mistake because we haven't heard or read any additional stories of shooting guns or going into a crowd and punching people. I don't remember Doss taking any of his new teammates to the local bar to party.

    *Joseph Jefferson? The Colts decided he wasn't worth the risk and just cut him. Man had all kind of talent and could have been a starter, but they weren't willing to take that chance.

    *Nick Harper? As soon as we hear any additional stories (which we haven't) then I'll join the MM bandwagon.

    The difference is the Colts mentioned have not had additional episodes while the story line continues to grow for JAck.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

  19. #19
    Member Knucklehead Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    Why do we overlook the Colts' knuckleheadedness? Montieth and Seth have good points.
    I think one of the differences is that the Colts' dramas tend to be one time affairs, while with Artest and Jackson it's an ongoing saga. I don't hear anyone talking about Mike Doss or Marvin Harrison or Nick Harper when the 3 road losses are mentioned. Instead they're talking about the how the team does its job. There's a dissatisfaction with losing, while with the Pacers, it's a dissatisfaction with how the players act.
    Or have I just talked myself into a circle?
    Don't thank me, I'll kill ya.

  20. #20
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    I think the Richards article aptly addresses the "knucklehead" situation. The Pacers negative actions are covered and covered and covered causing it to seem like an ongoing problem, while the Colts negative actions are covered as if separate incidents making them seem less daunting. The Colts haven't made it any further into the playoff than the Pacers. They aren't without their "thuggy" players either(there are Colts players who frequent clubs and brandish guns). They also have injury prone players (Stokely, Clark,Sanders). They don't play defense nearly as well as the Pacers. They've had internal player confrontations ( remember that idiot kicker). They've attacked fans, allegedly( remeber Marvin's altercation with an autograph seeker). They've choked in the biggest games of the year. They lose to teams they're supposed to beat. They have players who quit on plays (nice tacklin' Marvin, who really believes Simon has an undisclosed illness) They have a coach whose demeanor if often blamed during loses. They have a superstar that wins some but loses some too. They have too much money tied up in players that aren't performing well(1.4 mil Stokely,nearly 3 mil for Vandy last year,3.2 mil for Josh Williams last year) They have players who the same mistakes repeatedly( "false start on #78 offense" ring a bell?). Whatever happened to Kendyl Pope, Steve Muhammed or Shawn King? Montae Reagor harrassed a former girlfriend enough he was arrested. The list goes on.....

  21. #21
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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    While I'm venting.... Something else that has worn me out is the people who root less for the uniform and more for who is wearing the uniform.

    Have many of us have forgotten about team basketball and the beauty of the game when everyone plays the right way?

    Or is it OK to lose and muddle along around .500 as long as so and so has a nice couple of boxes in the stat line? Is that a signal that things are looking up and I'm just not seeing it?

    -Bball
    You know...I can't help but think "does Bball see the irony here". If you are a fan of the Pacers, then how can you hate JO? Can't you just look at that uniform instead of who's in it, as you so elliquently put it?

    Now don't mistake me as one of those "Everything is hunky dorey, and we're all right" people. I see the faults. I point out the faults. I don't like the faults. But at the end of the day, I also realize that no matter how much I do that, it's not gonna change a thing. So I support my team, through the good and the bad. I root for them to make the proper changes that I believe they will make. I supported Artest till his final game, and I will do the same for Jackson. I do not think they are the best things to happen to this team, but they both have many redimable qualities that I can look at, instead of talking of cutting them.

    I guess I don't really have a point. It's your life and you will live it how you see fit. In the end it really isn't a big deal if you don't care about the pacers anymore, and in reality it will probably help you lead a more successful, fufilling existance.

    Just right now, at this moment, I'm not ready to quit on this team. There are too many good things going for it, with the possibility of many more to come.

  22. #22

    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    My dad followed the Bears all his life. He watched the '85 Super Bowl from a hospital bed, and died the following October. His loyalty paid off, and I'm sure the victory was sweeter because he'd never wanted anything else from sports. Dying at 51 was not OK, but he was able to check, "See the Bears win it all" on his list of "things to do in my life."

    I feel the same way about the Pacers. I'm never going to like another team, and I don't care much about the NBA. I'm content to see the team in a building mode, if we really are building toward a strong team in years to come. The early and mid '90s were very exciting, as the pieces came together toward a very good team that was genuinely knocking on the door.

    I can be happy for years on end watching guys like Mark Jackson and Heywoode Workman and Dale Davis as they slowly work to get it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth
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    Funny how the main thing . . . is LOSING. Really it's the ONLY thing connecting the issues. Tells me all I need to know about local fans. The fault isn't behavior or how the player conducts himself on the field, the fault is simply failure.
    Maybe this is true is general. But not for me. My discontent is spawned by bad behavior off-court and inconsistent effort on-court. I can understand why BBall is so grumpy. The Pacers organization doesn't seem to be building toward anything. There is no solid core of veterans, dspite the obvious talent. Only Granger seems to be a starter of the future. We're a bunch of scrubs and subs -- not a team that is developing.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  23. #23

    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    It's not bad because we're mediocre, it's bad because we're going nowhere. We're closer to going backwards rather than forward.

    ...which is exactly why the team should have gone young and into a rebuild mode. This retooling, barely see the playoffs crap is going to hurt the franchise MUCH MORE than a few years of young players getting used to one another. But they decided not to go that route when they got rid of James White. And so the team is left in limbo. Many of these guys are leftovers from a run that never culminated in a championship. Tinsley, O'Neal, remember when they were young and promising? These guys are 28 now. Two years left of prime production. And yet they're still treated like prospects.

    Jackson, another guy who is 28, marginal skill set, yet the team has been committed to him for one reason or another.

    It's time to get young A1 talent on the team. In my opinion there are three options for this season and the team's future:

    1.) Stand pat. Worst move possible, IMO.

    2.) Trade for Allen Iverson and make that last push at the playoffs, possibly sacrificing more youth and draft picks. This is the only option that may appease the fans.

    3.) Trade to get young, future stars and back in the '07 draft. Play Granger, Marshall, Daniels, Powell and experiment with them to see how to maximize their respective skill sets. See what you've got and what you need to make next year's team respectable (because that's all it needs to be...this and the past few Pacer teams haven't been anything better than decent).

  24. #24
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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Whenever I read accounts like Bballs, I always have several very real emotional reactions. I'm going to try and verbalize my reactions.

    Let me first say, that certainly anyone is entitled to feel as they feel.

    1) When I read accounts like Bball's I first feel kinda sad as in - wow the Pacers lost another fan.

    2) Then I feel, denial - I don't believe it, it is just trendy right now for longtime fans to post the "I don't care anymore" thread.
    I don't think the Pacers lost a fan because I can completely commiserate with Bball.

    I'm numb with the Knicks. It took until they fired Larry Brown last summer but it's happened. I find zero enjoyment in following the team right now. The recent play of Curry has piqued my interest a bit and the play of David Lee has done more than that - but guess what - as soon as Frye comes back, Lee goes to the bench.

    I can take cheering for a lousy team - did it for decades in the 70's and 80's (minus the Bernard King years). But there's a point where you can't look at a single thing going on and find anything good in it. In fact, IMO the worst thing that could happen to us is for Isiah to get 38-40 wins and sneak into the playoffs as a 7 or 8 seed. Dolan will probably see it as enough success to keep Zeke on while to me, after 4 years and with our payroll, that should get him fired.

    There's no profit in following what the Knicks do but if the next era brings something resembling someone with a clue - even if they tear the whole mess down and start from scratch - I'll be there with them. But at some point you have to mentally distance yourself for sanity's sake.

    Friday night will be the first game the Knicks have played in Indy that I'll have missed in at least 15 years.

    If I don't cave at the last minute.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  25. #25
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: So It's Come To This...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Whenever I read accounts like Bballs, I always have several very real emotional reactions. I'm going to try and verbalize my reactions.

    Let me first say, that certainly anyone is entitled to feel as they feel.

    1) When I read accounts like Bball's I first feel kinda sad as in - wow the Pacers lost another fan.

    2) Then I feel, denial - I don't believe it, it is just trendy right now for longtime fans to post the "I don't care anymore" thread.


    3) Then I feel a little anger - well boo-hoo - so the team isn't great and things aren't just as you would like it - so what do you do you bail on the team. You take your ball and go home - you just give up. Sounds like you are being a little selfish and immature.

    4) Then I ask myself, why don't I just bail on the team - seems to be the "thing to do" I certainly could use the money I spend on other things. I could spend time doing other things that are more productive. Who needs the headache - I know I sure don't.

    5) but in the end, I remember how much joy I've gotten from being a Pacers fan over the years. I remember the 80's and how lonely it was - I remember all the fun times since. Aand in the end I decide no, I won't give up on them, I'll continue to watch every game and that I still really get excited for every game and look forward to whatever the next game is.


    So there you have it, my honest thoughts and feelings on the matter.


    UB,
    Did you get to this last part of my post:

    This is not to say I'm no longer a 'fan' or to call out who is and isn't a 'fan'. It is to say that this 'team' (from players to management (and owners)) have worn me out.

    They've taken away the passion.

    I'm numb.

    -Bball
    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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