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Thread: Jags get second-most number of rushing yards in an NFL game

  1. #26

    Default Re: Jags get second-most number of rushing yards in an NFL game

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    It reads in tone like you disagree with me but yet you seem to be making my argument.

    ...Altho I think it's folly to plan on shoring up the defense after Peyton and Marvin retire. You're wasting them in that case... and severely testing the core of the fanbase with that type of strategy.

    But to the point of the here and now-

    First, Peyton Manning is going to make a lot of receivers look good if they do their homework. So let's start putting some money into the other side of the ball. Please.

    Secondly... I don't think it's just money that is the problem. Are you saying that only undersized, lame defenders are available for the prices we are paying? Can't we at least get lame defenders who are more near the average size for their positions?

    Maybe we first need to start looking at players who are physically big enough to play their positions in the modern NFL and rethink this 'small and fast' idea. Especially up front. And as small as our guys are according to the numbers, my guess is that the numbers are inflated. Cato June was reported to have said he's actually 209lbs!

    That doesn't mean we scrap everyone in this defense but it means that we find ways to better utilize them.... and that falls right back to management and coaches.

    -Bball
    What fanbase? Prior to the "Cirque du Manning" coming to town, there wasn't a fanbase to be had, or at least, not one big enough to support the franchise for an extended period of time. Now everybody and their idiot cousin is wearing blue and white like it's the state uniform.

    Yes, I'm saying you can't get prototypical size players with average talent for what the Colts are able to pay in the free agent market. You'll notice that in the 2006 draft, the colts took Addai, which filled a huge hole, and the next two picks were on the defensive side of the ball. The next two were offensive lineman, which is a good investment for any team, and then 2 more defensive players. Don't think for a second the Colts haven't been looking at the defensive side of the ball. In fact, that's how they've managed to have a defense at all. A rookie in the 2nd or 3rd round costs less than a proven veteran, it's a fact. By having so much money tied up in the offense, they are forced to cut costs in other areas. I've been talking to Colts fans about this ever since Peyton Manning signed that ginormous contract of his, and everyone just expected the Colts to outscore everyone until they realized that's a bad gameplan, then there was grousing about the defense overall, so the Colts made it better, and now the fans complain that it's the *run* defense that's the problem. Face it, you guys will never be happy.

    The problem is that the Colts don't have enough huge linemen who can stuff the run. The rub is that huge defensive lineman who can stuff the run are unavailable in the 2nd and 3rd round, and are too expensive to pick up in the free agent market. You can bet that if there's someone reasonable available, the Colts will be picking up a fat defensive lineman who has a reputation as a run-stuffer next year.

    Dungy's small defense approach is proven. But it requires gang-tackling, which means everyone has to be fast and a good tackler. It also helps if you've got one hell of a run-stuffer like Warren Sapp on your team that forces guys outside where the gang-tackling can catch up to them. The Colts don't currently have that in spades, and the results are obvious. Also, this is the second year in a row they've tried to shore up that problem, so it's certainly not for lack of trying.

    Whatever, I'm done defending the Colts from a fanbase that's going to desert them the first time they post a season below .500.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Jags get second-most number of rushing yards in an NFL game

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    What fanbase? Prior to the "Cirque du Manning" coming to town, there wasn't a fanbase to be had, or at least, not one big enough to support the franchise for an extended period of time. Now everybody and their idiot cousin is wearing blue and white like it's the state uniform.

    Yes, I'm saying you can't get prototypical size players with average talent for what the Colts are able to pay in the free agent market. You'll notice that in the 2006 draft, the colts took Addai, which filled a huge hole, and the next two picks were on the defensive side of the ball. The next two were offensive lineman, which is a good investment for any team, and then 2 more defensive players. Don't think for a second the Colts haven't been looking at the defensive side of the ball. In fact, that's how they've managed to have a defense at all. A rookie in the 2nd or 3rd round costs less than a proven veteran, it's a fact. By having so much money tied up in the offense, they are forced to cut costs in other areas. I've been talking to Colts fans about this ever since Peyton Manning signed that ginormous contract of his, and everyone just expected the Colts to outscore everyone until they realized that's a bad gameplan, then there was grousing about the defense overall, so the Colts made it better, and now the fans complain that it's the *run* defense that's the problem. Face it, you guys will never be happy.

    The problem is that the Colts don't have enough huge linemen who can stuff the run. The rub is that huge defensive lineman who can stuff the run are unavailable in the 2nd and 3rd round, and are too expensive to pick up in the free agent market. You can bet that if there's someone reasonable available, the Colts will be picking up a fat defensive lineman who has a reputation as a run-stuffer next year.

    Dungy's small defense approach is proven. But it requires gang-tackling, which means everyone has to be fast and a good tackler. It also helps if you've got one hell of a run-stuffer like Warren Sapp on your team that forces guys outside where the gang-tackling can catch up to them. The Colts don't currently have that in spades, and the results are obvious. Also, this is the second year in a row they've tried to shore up that problem, so it's certainly not for lack of trying.

    Whatever, I'm done defending the Colts from a fanbase that's going to desert them the first time they post a season below .500.
    With all due respect your recent posts smack of an elitist tone. B-Ball is not at all disagreeing with anything you said but you insist on lecturing him and everyone else as if you were the NFL sage. News flash! It's an internet discussion board. Nobody's an expert and nobody's right. It's a place to share and debate different ideas, opinions, and perspectives in a civil manner.

    Your patronizing tone also indicts the majority of Colts fans as "bandwagon" and limited only to the Peyton Manning era's success. Naturally, there are fans like that, but it is an insult to a significant group of fans who undoubtedly have supported the franchise through the lean years of their tenure in Indy, such as myself, a member of a family that has had season tickets since the team's arrival. The same is true of the Pacers and their followers.

    While I have enjoyed the success of the Colts in recent years, I have been uncomfortable and vocal about my disagreement with managements strategy to almost completely forsake the defensive side of the ball at the expesne of stockpiling offensive talent and then having to pay that talent accordingly.

    I, and many others, understand that the defense wins championships addage rings true and this is why we complained and are still complaining. We don't need your posts to be able to "educate" us. Perhaps you could agree with us or elaborate on what we're saying instead of constantly haranguing us and feeling the need to enlighten us. Or simply state your point of view in a less condescending fashion.

  3. #28

    Default Re: Jags get second-most number of rushing yards in an NFL game

    I told you, I'm done defending the Colts. Nothing changes until Peyton re-negotiates and they trim down to 1 of the big 2 (either Harrison or Wayne, not both). There's no need to be more elaborate than that.

    My post wasn't a jab at long-time fans who represent probably 15,000 of the 55,000 who pack the Dome every weekend. The majority of fans are jumping off buildings and saying "all is lost" now, and all I have to say to that is wait until Peyton and Marvin retire and the team has a couple of inevitable 5 or 6 win seasons while they reload on defense...

    Keep in mind, as you well know, 6 years ago everyone in town was wearing blue and gold. Where do you think all those people went when they realized the Pacers were an average team and the Colts were going to be good? And where will they go when the Colts start sucking?

    It disgusts me. End of discussion.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Jags get second-most number of rushing yards in an NFL game

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    I told you, I'm done defending the Colts.

    That's a shame because they need all the defensive help they can get!


    Nothing changes until Peyton re-negotiates and they trim down to 1 of the big 2 (either Harrison or Wayne, not both). There's no need to be more elaborate than that.

    My post wasn't a jab at long-time fans who represent probably 15,000 of the 55,000 who pack the Dome every weekend. The majority of fans are jumping off buildings and saying "all is lost" now, and all I have to say to that is wait until Peyton and Marvin retire and the team has a couple of inevitable 5 or 6 win seasons while they reload on defense...

    Keep in mind, as you well know, 6 years ago everyone in town was wearing blue and gold. Where do you think all those people went when they realized the Pacers were an average team and the Colts were going to be good? And where will they go when the Colts start sucking?

    It disgusts me. End of discussion.
    To tell you the truth... I don't even get your point. Are you saying that all is great right now and we should just enjoy it, even if it means we're to remain very beatable when it matters most (playoffs)? Are you saying there's no use complaining about things because the Colts have made their beds and we just have to accept that and that things will look up? Are you saying it is what it is, so shut up and enjoy it while it lasts?

    If your point is that the Colts are spending too much on offense... I agree. So what are you ranting about?

    I disagree that this -all- boils down to money tho. We need some size on the defensive end of the ball. They don't have to be Pro Bowlers tho.

    Is money a factor? Of course... Is it THE factor? I think not. I think some arrogance in management might be a factor tho....

    Maybe the fans and pundits need to start talking about how the Colts need to get even smaller and faster on defense... which would cause Polian to complain that these people don't understand football and then set out to make the Colts defense larger and slower just to go against the grain.

    -Bball
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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Jags get second-most number of rushing yards in an NFL game

    In the Jaguars' defense, they moved Pittsburgh's front seven all over the field earlier this season, and that front-seven is much, much better against the run (ie, bigger) than the Colts.

    The Jags have one of the best run-blocking OLs in the league. This reaction would be appropriate if it were a small OL or an average running team. I can't explain the Jag's inconsistency and I thought their record would be better (I haven't watched them enough), but they're a HARD HITTING team.

    Nothing changes until Peyton re-negotiates and they trim down to 1 of the big 2 (either Harrison or Wayne, not both).
    There's a lot of truth to that. Players in the trenches > "skilled" players when it comes to managing the salary cap. Let the skilled players make money in endoresements, but they are not more valuable on the football field once the ball is snapped each play. Lots of NFL teams get caught into this trap on the salary cap.

    Case in point: Name one NFL champion in the last 10 years that spent most of their money on the offensive side of the ball. Guess what? You can't.
    But you went one step too far. The St. Louis Rams did that, when they had a fairy-tale postseason. Maybe Kurt Warner was a bargain, but they were still paying Trent Green a fortune to be injured. The Colts appear intent on trying to repeat that strategy instead of the more-successful run-game/ defense/ win-outdoors-in-January strategy.
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  6. #31
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    Default Re: Jags get second-most number of rushing yards in an NFL game

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    In the Jaguars' defense, they moved Pittsburgh's front seven all over the field earlier this season, and that front-seven is much, much better against the run (ie, bigger) than the Colts.

    The Jags have one of the best run-blocking OLs in the league. This reaction would be appropriate if it were a small OL or an average running team. I can't explain the Jag's inconsistency and I thought their record would be better (I haven't watched them enough), but they're a HARD HITTING team.



    There's a lot of truth to that. Players in the trenches > "skilled" players when it comes to managing the salary cap. Let the skilled players make money in endoresements, but they are not more valuable on the football field once the ball is snapped each play. Lots of NFL teams get caught into this trap on the salary cap.



    But you went one step too far. The St. Louis Rams did that, when they had a fairy-tale postseason. Maybe Kurt Warner was a bargain, but they were still paying Trent Green a fortune to be injured. The Colts appear intent on trying to repeat that strategy instead of the more-successful run-game/ defense/ win-outdoors-in-January strategy.
    Good perspective on the Jags run blocking. While it should be taken into account, from a Colts perspective it doesn't really matter too much when taken in the context of the entire season and the abject ineptness of the run D.

    As far as The Greatest Show on Turf, the approach they used in building the team may be very much like the Colts, but regardless of what they had invested in their defense-and it was not a dominant one-I recall it being able to put up some reasonable resistance at times.

    So the philosophy can succeed but it seems that the margin for error on the other side of the ball is slight. This year the Colts have provided essentially no resistance on D. I'll chalk that up to personnel decisions and/or coaching. I simply disagree with the path taken and have for the last several seasons. Not just now b/c we've lost 3 of 4.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: Jags get second-most number of rushing yards in an NFL game

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    I told you, I'm done defending the Colts. Nothing changes until Peyton re-negotiates and they trim down to 1 of the big 2 (either Harrison or Wayne, not both). There's no need to be more elaborate than that.

    My post wasn't a jab at long-time fans who represent probably 15,000 of the 55,000 who pack the Dome every weekend. The majority of fans are jumping off buildings and saying "all is lost" now, and all I have to say to that is wait until Peyton and Marvin retire and the team has a couple of inevitable 5 or 6 win seasons while they reload on defense...

    Keep in mind, as you well know, 6 years ago everyone in town was wearing blue and gold. Where do you think all those people went when they realized the Pacers were an average team and the Colts were going to be good? And where will they go when the Colts start sucking?

    It disgusts me. End of discussion.
    Eindar, I could not agree more with your first graph. That's precisely what I've suggested elsewhere. The Colts must realize that the approach they've taken is flawed or at least extremely challenging historically. Such lack of equilibrium in the offensive direction must be addressed.

    At the same time, I still wish you didn't feel the need to respond to some venting fans's overreaction by taking pot shots at an entire city's sports fans. I'm sure my previous post didn't lessen your want to do so. For that allow me to apologize for throwing fuel on the fire. Particularly since I believe we hold a similar opinion of the subject under discussion. I still can't understand what the bone you had to pick with B-ball is though.

  8. #33
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    Default Re: Jags get second-most number of rushing yards in an NFL game

    Maybe I'm crazy, but wasn't Dungy supposed to be this all encompassing defensive strategist. That molded together that Bucs D. Or did he get too much credit for that. At what point, does he get scolded for continually throwing away the most important defensive position players, linebackers, away? I thought his only job was to build a defense and after five years, what do we have? The worst defense in football........yikes. I'm sorry but the guy just doesn't seem to have the gusto to motivate a nasty defense. I seriously believe you need to be a slightly crazy coach to win in this league. Look at the past Super Bowl winning coaches:
    Cowher = psycho
    Belichick = insanely passionate
    Gruden = one interception away from eating his quarterback whole
    Billick = ADHD
    I'm sorry but I've said it before and I'll say it again. Dungy is too nice of an individual to win in the most violent, roughest game in the world during the playoffs. Maybe he'll prove us all wrong and win it all this year and turn this D around....but I doubt it. Can you tell me straight faced that if the chips are down in the fourth quarter and Dungy has to motivate a stop of the Patriots to go to the Super Bowl this year, can you see him getting in the face of a defensive player and screaming bloody hell at them to crush Brady......I just don't see it happening, and frankly that's what you need at that time. I'm a big believer in that the team takes on the persona of the head coach and that this, more than anything else dictates playoff success. So basically, we have a lackadaisical, nice defense that opens up ten yard gaping holes and gives a cordial 'Peace be with you' as the running back passes. I mean come on Fred Taylor! I thought this guy would be a body part donor by now. As well, don't come on here and tell me I don't care about the Colts, because I think Dungy is doing a lousy job. In fact, I'd say that if you are looking the other way right now after these defensive performances, then you are the one that doesn't care.

  9. #34

    Default Re: Jags get second-most number of rushing yards in an NFL game

    But you went one step too far. The St. Louis Rams did that, when they had a fairy-tale postseason. Maybe Kurt Warner was a bargain, but they were still paying Trent Green a fortune to be injured. The Colts appear intent on trying to repeat that strategy instead of the more-successful run-game/ defense/ win-outdoors-in-January strategy.
    Here's Peyton's salary over the last few seasons:

    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2005 Colts $ 665,000 $ 0 $ 3,520 $ 668,520 $ 8,435,186 QB
    2004 Colts $ 535,000 $ 34,500,000 $ 2,700 $ 35,037,700 $ 8,304,366 QB
    2003 Colts $ 9,824,000 $ 0 $ 1,503,500 $ 11,327,500 $ 15,360,833 QB
    2002 Colts $ 6,298,000 $ 0 $ 3,150 $ 6,301,150 $ 10,334,483 QB
    2001 Colts $ 4,452,000 $ 0 $ 2,560 $ 8,487,893 $ 8,487,893 QB
    2000 Colts $ 2,666,000 $ 4,033,300 $ 3,200 $ 6,702,500 $ 6,702,500 QB

    Now, here's Trent Green's numbers:

    Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
    2005 Chiefs $ 4,700,000 $ 0 $ 300,000 $ 5,000,000 $ 7,298,808 QB
    2004 Chiefs $ 1,795,000 $ 1,750,000 $ 350,000 $ 3,895,000 $ 4,443,808 QB
    2003 Chiefs $ 655,000 $ 0 $ 4,300 $ 659,300 $ 2,666,442 QB
    2002 Chiefs $ 650,000 $ 0 $ 100,000 $ 750,000 $ 1,400,000 QB
    2001 Chiefs $ 2,400,000 $ 0 $ 100,000 $ 2,500,000 $ 2,500,000 QB
    2000 Rams $ 2,900,000 $ 1,125,000 $ 100,000 $ 4,125,000 $ 4,125,000 QB

    That doesn't tell the whole tale, because the cap has increased, but if you look at the 2005 Colts team, in terms of "money against the cap", you have Monte Reagor at #4, and then you have to go all the way down to #11 to find another defensive player, that being Dwight Freeney, the Colts best defensive player. Meanwhile, the 2000 Rams had 2 out of the top 6 on the defensive side, and a fairly good mix of defensive and offensive guys the rest of the way down. That's also reflected in the Rams' defensive play, which was roughly middle of the pack, and probably closer to the upper end of the middle of the pack.

    Sure, salary isn't the only indicator of a team's performance. You can have breakout players change everything for you, because they're playing at a level that isn't indicative of their salary. But if you look at where good teams spend their money, it's never as lopsided as it is for the Colts. I even looked for the defensive equivalent of the Colts, that being the Ravens' team that won the Super bowl in 2000, and while they were very defense-heavy in salary, they still had Jonathan Ogden at #1 and Jamal Lewis at #8, and also a QB and an Offensive Lineman at 6 and 7. So even the Ravens weren't that heavily stacked on one side of the ball.

    EDIT: for those that don't know, I'm a Kansas City fan, have been for a long time now. So keep in mind when I'm railing on the Colts and their fanbase, I'm not cannibalizing my own co-fans, and I'm not pointing fingers at myself as a "true Colts fan", nor was I pointing fingers at anyone in particular at being a "bad fan". In fact, I'm not the most diehard Kansas City fan in the world. I haven't yet broken down to buy Sunday Ticket. I've never been to Arrowhead (although I plan to as soon as I can afford it). And I'm not even as religious in following the team as I am the Pacers. However, I am dedicated. If the Chiefs go 3-13 for the next decade, I'll still be checking on scores and highlights, and planning my trip to Arrowhead. Contrast that to a good percentage, perhaps even a majority of this city, who will root for whichever team is chic to root for at the moment. This isn't a recent development, and anyone that doesn't recognize this quirk of my hometown has blinders on.

    What I'm upset about is Colts fans crying a proverbial river over something that's been a problem for at least the last 3 years, and has no real hope of changing in the near future. Accept it for what it is and move on, guys. You win some, and you lose some. Currently the Colts are on a pretty nasty skid, and I'm not sure why, because even with a bad D, they should have beaten the Titans. They'll still win the division, and likely have home field for at least one game. There's nothing to be upset about in that. I had Marty Schottenheimer as the head coach of my football team for about 6 years or so, so I know exactly what it's like to go into the playoffs hoping your team doesn't crap the bed in the first round after winning 13 games in the regular season. But I didn't call for Marty's head, either, because that's just who he is. I accepted that he's not a great playoff coach, and I enjoyed the season for what it was, a winning one, playing my style of football at a high level.

    Anyways, good luck on the rest of your season.

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