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Thread: The Congress or the President?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: The Congress or the President?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The supermajoryity of people on this board don't think it was a mistake...
    Clearly that's true. This is a very conservative board lodged in a very conservative state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I'll buy that a majority of Americans want us out of Iraq & I'll even buy that a majority feel that it has been mishandled, but in no way do I buy that 71% think it was a mistake.

    Again it's that whole poll thing. I don't trust them & neither should you.
    Fair enough. But even if they don't think it was a mistake, they want us out. So let's get out already. Is this a democracy or isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Have you ever been polled on a national issue? I haven't. I don't even know anybody who has been.
    Yes, I have. It was fun because there are so few opportunities, even in a small way, to have our voices heard over the din of the powerful elite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    So if I read you right on this you think that Congress should try & force the issue of bringing the troops home & thus make President Bush force the issue to stay & thus politicaly making him look bad? Not that I think he could look much worse than he does at the moment mind you, but I get your point.
    A admit that there is little short of impeachment that will get Bush to agree to get us out of Iraq. He knows that the minute we leave, the last shred of his legacy is down the tubes. As long as we're there when he leaves office, he can always say, "If only we'd stayed a little longer..." instead of fessing up to the incredible mess he has made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    However it is a gamble because it could easily backfire as well because if Bush came out with some spine & actually took to the field to state his reasons why, which he should ahve been doing all along, there is a chance (very very small chance I admit) that he could turn it on the Democrats & force them into a corner as well.
    I can count half a dozen times he has gone on a speachifying offensive to try to convince America of staying and fighting. It hasn't worked. It doesn't matter how good his rhetoric is at this point, the reality of the situation has overwhelmed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    But it might be a political move worth taking from your side of the aisle.
    It would also have the side benefit of being the right thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    But none of this answers my question. What part of the law do you see as making this the authority of congress.

    BTW, just in case your wondering I'm not trying to be an @ss about this. I just really want to know if I'm missing something or misunderstanding /QUOTE]somthing about the law.
    You aren't being an @ss at all. There are two good arguments that I see. I think it's pretty clear that since the congress gets to decide whether we make war, they also get to decide when we don't make war. But even if you don't by that, Congress CLEARLY gets to decide what money gets spent by the executive branch, including the armed forces. If a law is passed saying that the military can't spend any more $$ on the occupation except for what's required to get out, then that's that.

    By the way, I think we should spend as much as we can on humanitarian missions in Iraq and the area. Not only is it the way we can most help, it is the way that, ultimately, will keep us the safest. The Muslim region of the world that has by far the most US supporters is Indonesia. Why? Because of our efforts following the tsunami. And the military understands that. I just read that we have launched a roving hospital ship in the region that literally just goes around to the hundreds of islands in the region helping people. And it is on call for emergencies like the tsunami. That, in my mind, is both kind and smart.

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    Default Re: The Congress or the President?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Again it's that whole poll thing. I don't trust them & neither should you.

    Have you ever been polled on a national issue? I haven't. I don't even know anybody who has been.
    I have been polled several times over the years by what I believe were legitimate polling companies. I also have kept a television and ratings book for a major ratings company for broadcasters. But I have more years under the belt, so maybe your day will come.

    Actually, I believe it is becoming much more difficult to be polled. Being smarter, there is no way I would allow myself to be polled over the phone at a great length about my opinions, especially regarding politics or finances.

    My dad, by the way, as a retiree, in the 60's and 70's was a part-time in-home interviewer for the Gallop poll. As I remember it, their methodology then was to give him a list of specific households to contact. His task was to keep going down the list until he completed a specified number of interviews. He was trained and counseled to keep the comments neutral during the interview. Something he always followed...at least, until the interview was completed and opinions had been recorded. Dad loved talking government issues and he always said he was amazed how much people wanted to talk after the poll was completed.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: The Congress or the President?

    I have been polled myself, and I am also in marketing. No poll can be truly unbiased.

    You will get the answers you want based upon how you ask the questions. This is what I do for a living. Trust me.

    I can listen to the poll questions without knowing who put the poll together and tell you how its going to be used.

    And often, if they don't get the answerss they want, they will not use that poll data, and will redo it. You just redo it until you get the sample you want.

    Its all in how its run and all in how its asked. You can also direct your questions to areas where you know the demographics are slanted a certain way to get the answers you want as well.

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    Default Re: The Congress or the President?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyron View Post
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    I have been polled myself, and I am also in marketing. No poll can be truly unbiased.

    You will get the answers you want based upon how you ask the questions. This is what I do for a living. Trust me.

    I can listen to the poll questions without knowing who put the poll together and tell you how its going to be used.

    And often, if they don't get the answers they want, they will not use that poll data, and will redo it. You just redo it until you get the sample you want.

    Its all in how its run and all in how its asked. You can also direct your questions to areas where you know the demographics are slanted a certain way to get the answers you want as well.
    Of course polls can be biased. That's why political campaign intentionally come up with misleading polling and "leak" it to the press as the inside scoop. Also, issues that are "close" are notoriously difficult to get an easy yes or no answer. But we aren't talking about anything like that here. We are talking about Rasmussen and Gallup and international polling firms like that that make their bread and butter by falling all over themselves being unbiased. And the polls have come up EVERY TIME that Iraqis OVERWHELMINGLY want us out, regardless of the consequences. It isn't close.

    By the way, even voting isn't "unbiased". I was just reading an article talking about how people voting in an elementary school are more likely to vote for school bonds, and people voting in a church are less likely to vote for gay rights, etc.

  5. #30
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    Default Re: The Congress or the President?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Ball View Post
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    And the polls have come up EVERY TIME that Iraqis OVERWHELMINGLY want us out, regardless of the consequences. It isn't close.
    That's oversimplified and somewhat untrue. Most do want us out however most also believe that our leaving will:

    A) Reduce the level of violence and

    B) Strengthen the current government

    There's no "regardless of consequences" that I've ever seen.

    Though the last poll I'm aware of was taken in September. Hard to say what the feeling is today.

    In that poll 37% want the US out within 6 months and 34% want us to gradually withdraw within a year.

    The overwhelming fear is of the US establishing a permanent military base. I believe that this was something that was on the "to do" list back in March of 2003 - it would have allowed us to bracket Iran with bases there and in Afghanistan. I'm pretty sure that's been taken off the table.
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  6. #31
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    Default Re: The Congress or the President?

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    That's oversimplified and somewhat untrue. Most do want us out however most also believe that our leaving will:

    A) Reduce the level of violence and

    B) Strengthen the current government

    There's no "regardless of consequences" that I've ever seen.

    Though the last poll I'm aware of was taken in September. Hard to say what the feeling is today.

    In that poll 37% want the US out within 6 months and 34% want us to gradually withdraw within a year.

    The overwhelming fear is of the US establishing a permanent military base. I believe that this was something that was on the "to do" list back in March of 2003 - it would have allowed us to bracket Iran with bases there and in Afghanistan. I'm pretty sure that's been taken off the table.
    It's hard to say whether our leaving will initially lead to more or less violence (over the first 6 months or so). I could see it going either way. Iraqis do fear (at least according to polls) what would happen if we left too quickly, but as you said more than 70% want us out within a year according to your poll. If they want us out, then they will have to face those consequences.

    We began building permanent military bases in the first days our arrival in Baghdad, and have showed little sign that we would abandon them. I agree that they are important, and I would argue that they are the primary reason for our invasion.

    Speaking of polls, here is a whopper: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n2247797.shtml
    Whew, 21% approval on Bush's handling of Iraq and 29% overall. Youch. I read today in the Atlantic that his approval rating in Europe is 18% which it described as "bottom scraping". Well, we're getting there, too.

    It occurs to me that the Republicans have one lucky thing going for them: they don't have a Veep that plans on running. It's hard for the part to turn down a Veep for the nomination, but anyone too closely associated with this administration would have no chance in 08. I suspect that the reason Guliani is ahead in the straw polls right now is that he has almost NO association with Bush.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: The Congress or the President?

    You cite gallup as being "unbiass" as their bread and butter, yet you don't even use them for your results in Bush's job approval rating? Hmm, sounds kinda fishy to me.

    Right now it's at 38% according to Gallup, but I found this to be quite interesting:
    Bush's job approval rating continues to be sharply divided along political lines.

    The latest poll finds that 80% of Republicans approve of the way Bush is handling the presidency, compared with 30% of independents and just 9% of Democrats. The approval rating across all three political groups is on average for the year, with an 80% average so far in 2006 for Republicans, 29% for independents, and 9% for Democrats, and there has been only modest fluctuation in Bush's rating across these three groups in recent months.
    http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=25858

    But what I find REALLY REALLY interesting is the high regard Clinton is held in, with regards to this country (and Reagan for that matter.) I think this poll shows just how out of touch this country really is when judging job approval ratings for Presidents.

    Who do you regard as the greatest United States president?"
    2/05 11/03 2/99
    % % %
    Ronald Reagan 20 13 12
    Bill Clinton 15 9 12
    Abraham Lincoln 14 17 18
    Franklin Roosevelt 12 11 9
    John Kennedy 12 17 12
    George W. Bush 5 3 -
    George Washington 5 7 12
    Jimmy Carter 3 3 3
    Harry Truman 2 3 4
    Theodore Roosevelt 2 3 3
    Thomas Jefferson 2 3 2
    George H. W. Bush 1 2 5
    Dwight Eisenhower 1 2 2
    Richard Nixon 1 1 2
    Other 1 2 1
    None 1 - 1
    No opinion 3 4 2
    http://www.pollingreport.com/wh-hstry.htm

    How can you take these types of polls seriously when they conclude that Reagan and Clinton are our two best presidents EVER??

  8. #33
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    Default Re: The Congress or the President?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    But what I find REALLY REALLY interesting is the high regard Clinton is held in, with regards to this country (and Reagan for that matter.) I think this poll shows just how out of touch this country really is when judging job approval ratings for Presidents.


    http://www.pollingreport.com/wh-hstry.htm

    How can you take these types of polls seriously when they conclude that Reagan and Clinton are our two best presidents EVER??
    I'm especially worried about the 1% that thought Nixon was the greatest president ever. Youch. 1% of the country is like 3 million people!

    That is an amazing stat that 80% of Republicans say they approve of Bush. Wow. What on EARTH is there to approve of? It's one thing to say that you like him better than Kerry or something like that, but to actually APPROVE. Whew. Do people on this board even approve of the job he's done?

  9. #34
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    Default Re: The Congress or the President?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    You cite gallup as being "unbiass" as their bread and butter, yet you don't even use them for your results in Bush's job approval rating? Hmm, sounds kinda fishy to me.

    Right now it's at 38% according to Gallup, but I found this to be quite interesting:

    http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=25858

    But what I find REALLY REALLY interesting is the high regard Clinton is held in, with regards to this country (and Reagan for that matter.) I think this poll shows just how out of touch this country really is when judging job approval ratings for Presidents.


    http://www.pollingreport.com/wh-hstry.htm

    How can you take these types of polls seriously when they conclude that Reagan and Clinton are our two best presidents EVER??

    Well I have to agree on # 1 anyway.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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