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Thread: Home Invasion

  1. #1
    _PD_
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    Default Home Invasion

    OK, without a Second Amendment debate here, let's assume that sometime tonight someone beats on my door, kicking it in, and I respond with a weapon, you know which one I mean. (I do not own a gun BTW).

    This is prompted by the recent story of the guy who shot an intruder who broke into his house. They exchanged gunfire, the perpetrator being hit. The report is that it appears to be self defense, but it is still under investigation.

    Perhaps MarionDeputy could help with these questions.
    1. What are my responsibilities before I open fire? (assuming I own a firearm)
    2. WHAT IF the intruder yells "POLICE" when he kicks in my door? WTF do I do THEN?!!!?

  2. #2
    Leisure Suit Larry
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    Default Re: Home Invasion

    Well as an LEO (security guard enrolled in community college)......I don't know what to tell you.

  3. #3
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Home Invasion

    I always thought that if someone breaks into your house you could fire away with inpunity. if someone yells police you better wait to see some ID before you fire away. I don't own a gun by the way

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Home Invasion

    Mitch Daniels signed this last March and went into effect in July...

    SECTION 1. IC 35-41-3-2 IS AMENDED TO READ AS FOLLOWS [EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2006]: Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
    (1) is justified in using deadly force; only and
    (2) does not have a duty to retreat;
    if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
    (b) A person:
    (1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person; and
    (2) does not have a duty to retreat;
    if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, or curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.
    (c) With respect to property other than a dwelling, or curtilage, or an occupied motor vehicle, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another person if the person reasonably believes that the

    force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person's immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect. However, a person:
    (1) is not justified in using deadly force; unless and
    (2) does not have a duty to retreat;
    only if that force is justified under subsection (a).
    (d) A person is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person and does not have a duty to retreat if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or stop the other person from hijacking, attempting to hijack, or otherwise seizing or attempting to seize unlawful control of an aircraft in flight. For purposes of this subsection, an aircraft is considered to be in flight while the aircraft is:
    (1) on the ground in Indiana:
    (A) after the doors of the aircraft are closed for takeoff; and
    (B) until the aircraft takes off;
    (2) in the airspace above Indiana; or
    (3) on the ground in Indiana:
    (A) after the aircraft lands; and
    (B) before the doors of the aircraft are opened after landing.
    (e) Notwithstanding subsections (a), (b), and (c), a person is not justified in using force if:
    (1) the person is committing or is escaping after the commission of a crime;
    (2) the person provokes unlawful action by another person with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or
    (3) the person has entered into combat with another person or is the initial aggressor unless the person withdraws from the encounter and communicates to the other person the intent to do so and the other person nevertheless continues or threatens to continue unlawful action.
    (f) Notwithstanding subsection (d), a person is not justified in using force if the person:
    (1) is committing, or is escaping after the commission of, a crime;
    (2) provokes unlawful action by another person, with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or
    (3) continues to combat another person after the other person withdraws from the encounter and communicates the other person's intent to stop hijacking, attempting to hijack, or otherwise seizing or attempting to seize unlawful control of an

    aircraft in flight.
    http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/.../HE1028.1.html
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  5. #5
    IMPD Officer MarionDeputy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Home Invasion

    The law that was posted by NS sums it up pretty well. My advice, that I have shared with many, is that the first test to using deadly force, is that you must be able to articulate how your life or someone else's life was in imminent danger.

    I would recommend that if someone kicks down your door screaming police, you do not shoot without verifying it......if they have a valid warrant your in a lot of trouble....
    "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

    --Jack Nicholson as Colonel Nathan Jessup in A Few Good Men

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Home Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The law that was posted by NS sums it up pretty well. My advice, that I have shared with many, is that the first test to using deadly force, is that you must be able to articulate how your life or someone else's life was in imminent danger.

    I would recommend that if someone kicks down your door screaming police, you do not shoot without verifying it......if they have a valid warrant your in a lot of trouble....
    The problem's all the conflicting messages out there. Actually the real problem's bigger than the messages but for this scenario it's the symptom that's the problem.

    Frex, (and I know you're aware of this) there's been so much impersonation going on that I've seen police officers recommending that if you're at all concerned over if someone's an officer or not, you dial 911 and verify that someone's at your address or behind your car before letting him/her in or stopping.

    That's incompatible with not defending your home if someone kicks the door down, no matter what they say.

    I know what happens if someone kicks my door in - no matter what they yell. I'm diving for the closet 4 feet from my bed. Whether I shoot or not will depend on a lot of things but they better not bust into my bedroom without tossing a badge in first or bad things might happen.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  7. #7
    _PD_
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    Default Re: Home Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    My advice, that I have shared with many, is that the first test to using deadly force, is that you must be able to articulate how your life or someone else's life was in imminent danger.
    I am willing to hold my fire if they say "police" and I will judge based on their clothing and profile (assuming I can see it) if they are, i.e. if it's a teenager wearing a T-shirt vs. big guys with flak jackets and badges around their necks. If I cannot, then I will have to ask for ID. This is all presuming I own a gun, which I do not, and that I have training to use it. These are all big IFs while I am fumbling for my glasses and my weapon while half asleep in the dark. Already you see the problems. Right now I think a very big addition to my home would be a motion detector light inside my front door.

    Now let's assume I don't receive (or hear) the "police" warning. I don't see any badges or flak jackets, nor do I see a weapon. I assume if someone breaks down my door, they mean me harm. Can I fire away? With the expectation that I will have to say something meaningful like I feared for my life, etc?

    And now the kicker, how big is the gray area if the intruder does not have a weapon?

    I realize actions and comments are going to be investigated and analyzed to determine what the penalties, if any, are.

  8. #8
    Member Moses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Home Invasion

    Cops don't just randomly break into peoples houses unless you are actually doing something wrong.

    It's always better safe then sorry. I don't care if they yell police when they kick my door down, I'm going to be waiting for them with a loaded gun on the other side..and until I see the uniforms or a badge, I'm not dropping my weapon.

  9. #9
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Home Invasion

    Considering the fact I'm not engaged in illegal activity, there would be no reason for the police to knock my door down. They could ring the doorbell. If someone breaks into my home I'll assume they mean me, my wife or our children harm. If someone wants to break in and steal my T.V. they'd likely do that while we're away. Outside of the obvious reasons for using force against an intruder, isn't there some sort of obligation on my part to protect my family. I'd certainly fight to the death over my children's well being or my wife's for that matter. I'd worry about the consequences afterwards and if they we're anything more than being interviewed as a hero on the news that would be outright screwy.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Home Invasion

    Simply breaking down your door is not going to be sufficient for self defense using deadly force. I think you're going to need to wait for them to approach you or your family, or present a weapon. The person breaking down the door could just be a drunk who's at the wrong house, or some neighborhood kids taking a bet that they can't break down a door, and not caring to try their luck with their parent's door.

    In any case, I'd really avoid using deadly force until I felt like someone's life was imminently in danger, meaning, somebody I'm protecting, or myself is going to die or be seriously injured in the next 5 seconds if I don't shoot.

    My background on this is that I've written a couple papers on personal privacy, served on a murder/self defense jury, and taken 1 civil law class that delved into this topic as a point of class interest. Otherwise, I'm a know-nothing civilian

  11. #11
    _PD_
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    Default Re: Home Invasion

    Mistakes happen. Police DO beat down the wrong door every now and then. People do go to the wrong house by accident. I remember the kid dressed up for a halloween party who was shot when he knocked on the wrong door.

    We seem to be in two camps here and I can see both sides which is why I raised the question. Many years ago my apartment door was beaten in. My neighbor who just happened to be home surprised the perpetrator by opening his door. The guy ran away. This was during the day, presumably when most burglaries happen. In my subdivision a guy was surprised at 8:00am trying to break into the front door of a neighbor. He too ran away.
    I'm assuming in both of these cases, a shot fired by me would not have passed the imminent danger test. In these cases, the protection of family and possessions seems to be a smaller issue than the protection of the life of a criminal. If that is the price you pay for protecting the innocent guy who forgot his door key and is at the wrong house, I can live with that.

    In the incident of a couple weeks ago, the victim had been tied up before in his house, but the perpetrator was also armed and they exchanged fire, the homeowner being a better shot. I have no problem with the outcome here or the decisions made.

    We now have home invaders. This will presumably happen at night. At least all of the cases I've heard about did. If they're smart (most criminals are not) they will gain an edge by yelling "police" when they break down your door. This is different from knocking on the wrong door wearing a halloween outfit, and it's different from running away when the door is opened.

    What I'm getting at is that my life is being put at a disadvantage by waiting for the imminent danger rule, which apparently is analyzed on a case by case basis anyway. That's a lot to ask of a homeowner who has to make a split decision when his family's safety is concerned. Perhaps if I had a gun and was well trained in these issues, it would be clearer to me what to do.

    Thanks for everyone's response.

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