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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

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No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

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  • No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

    Okay, has it begun to sink in that this team can not run a good break with any level of quality, at least on a consistant basis? They were this way the last 2 years and it's not changed.

    They have been blowing all sorts of mismatch breakaways. 2 on 1s that end up as misses, charges, balls off of fingertips....

    I realize that Jack was apparently hurt on that last play for him when he just ended up with nowhere to go and gave up on it (or couldn't move because of the knee perhaps), but honestly that was par for course with this team and fast breaks.


    I get it, they can't do it. Stop trying and focus on doing what you can do well. I've been all for early offense, getting down into the half court quickly. But please just stop pretending that somehow there is going to be this great long outlet pass that leads to some touch passes between 2 guys till one flies in for the dunk ala Worthy or Jordan.

    It ain't happening - ever. It's okay, it's not the Pacers' thing. I'm not mad that they can't do it. I'm mad that they can't do it but keep trying to force it to happen.



    Okay, sometimes they do get them. I just don't consider 15% or whatever their conversion rate on fast break attempts is to be a quality scoring rate, especially when it seems like those 85% end up coming back the other way for easy scores by the opponent.

  • #2
    Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

    Aren't fastbreaks an integral parto fo the success in the modern basketball? I doubt any team can be really good without playing fastbreaks when they present themselves. and if, for some freakish reason, a team can not convert fastbreaks, then it hardly deserves to be called a proffesional basketball unit. and I somewhat doubt Pacers are such a team imho there are no easier ways to score points than on a fastbreak.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

      Seth, you are raving.

      You only have to go back one game to Seattle, where the Pacers had an advantage on fast break points.

      The Pacers must get better at fast breaking and fast ball movement. However long it takes, and whoever it takes to get the job done, player-wise and coach-wise.

      It ain't happening now, but nothing good is going to happen for this team until they learn.
      And I won't be here to see the day
      It all dries up and blows away
      I'd hang around just to see
      But they never had much use for me
      In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

        On the telecast last night Chris mentioned a stat that has me very concerned. I think he said the Pacers are dead last in giving up points in transition or maybe the exact stat is points on a fastbreak. (meaning the Pacers give up the most points in this category) But if that is the case, then we have to do whatever it takes to correct that. If that means we abandon offensive rebounds, if that means we go back to a walk it up style - I don't care, but being last in the league in this stat - is a losing situation.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

          If you want to stop giving up fast breaks, get MORE offensive rebounds, not less.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

            Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
            On the telecast last night Chris mentioned a stat that has me very concerned. I think he said the Pacers are dead last in giving up points in transition or maybe the exact stat is points on a fastbreak. (meaning the Pacers give up the most points in this category) But if that is the case, then we have to do whatever it takes to correct that. If that means we abandon offensive rebounds, if that means we go back to a walk it up style - I don't care, but being last in the league in this stat - is a losing situation.
            If this is the case, then the irony is just too thick. Try to implement a more up-tempo offensive attack only to become a sieve defending in transition.

            The bottom line is that we have not been a particularly good defensive team period outside of JO's shotblocking and some occasional flahses of good individual defense. It would seem we have enough pieces to put a halfway decent defensive team on the floor with most combinations we could play.

            While I agree that our attempt at a faster pace on O is not playing out all too well, we also commit a lot of TOs in our halfcourt, too. Just seems like tons of bad decisions, lapses in concentration, and just general carlessness. What was the differential in the Denver game? Weren't we like -16 with 26 TOs or something? And Tins only had 2 I think as the primary ball handler and Jackson had only 2.

            We're almost a quarter in, how are you guys feeling about our "new" direction and the team's development? How long is long enough as far as time to gel? Half a season? Will the D improve and the turnovers at least be reduced to a reasonable amount?

            In general I will say I am content with the energy on the floor and the apparent cameraderie amongst the players. Beyond that, it still looks like a .500ish team to me, which is approximately what I was expecting. However that does indicate to me that, barring a major upswing in the W column over the next 20-25 games, TPTB should be seriously contemplating an aggressive plan for further change of team composition.
            I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

            -Emiliano Zapata

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            • #7
              Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

              The problem is, we are attempting to play a style of game that the western conference plays better. ...at least some of the teams. Just wait until we play Dallas or Phoenix.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

                Pacers are 28th in FG%. Ouch. That has to change.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

                  Until the Pacers get rid of Carlisle, Tinsley, Jackson, Al (& maybe Daniels & Harrison) - they will be a horrible team to watch.

                  The sheer talent of these guys may win some games up to ~.500, but it will be painful and frustrating for the fans, and they will ALWAYS crumble when it will matter, like in playoff time.

                  This team needs a new look, a new image, a new style, and a little... not much... a little will be enough... brains. The sad truth is that dumb & selfish players will get you nowhere. That translates to:

                  Trade Jax, Tins, Al - for whatever you can get (jury's still out on Daniels, Harrison)
                  Dump Rick - and put Bird, or a guy with "character" at the helm.


                  Free us from these unwatchable excuses of basketball players and give us a basketball TEAM!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

                    Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
                    The problem is, we are attempting to play a style of game that the western conference plays better. ...at least some of the teams. Just wait until we play Dallas or Phoenix.
                    The go-to guys are not fast break players while the subs may be but are not talented enough. So far I haven't seen anything special from Marshall or Powell that makes me think they will be on the team next year and Baston has no potential what so ever given a dunk now and then.
                    Forget the fast break and go for the rebound. The other teams get really easy uncontested rebounds because no one is covering.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

                      Originally posted by Hicks View Post
                      If you want to stop giving up fast breaks, get MORE offensive rebounds, not less.
                      The Pacers are the 8th best offensive rebounding team in the NBA right now. The Pacers are going to the offensive boards more often and I see less of an emphasis on getting back on defense.

                      Hicks, certainly the more offensive rebounds a team gets the fewer fastbreaks a team will give up. Wait that is not necessarily true or necessarily false. If a team would decide to send all 5 guys to the offensive board - they would really get a ton of offensive rebounds- but give up a ton of fastbreak layups - uncontested. But of course no team does that, some teams send two guys some teams send 1, some teams might send 2 plus one depending on where they are on the floor.

                      So Hicks I don't agree with your statement (it isn't that easy), but the bigger question is how a team goes about getting the offensive boards. If the Pacers are running the fastbreak well and running their halfcourt offense well, with good floor balance and the Pacers are taking good shots, then yes they can get some offensive rebs and still have a chance to get back on defense.

                      So I will grant you that the number of offensive rebs won't or shouldn't reflect on how many fastbreak points are given up - you can do both or you can do neither.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

                        Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                        The Pacers are the 8th best offensive rebounding team in the NBA right now. The Pacers are going to the offensive boards more often and I see less of an emphasis on getting back on defense.

                        Hicks, certainly the more offensive rebounds a team gets the fewer fastbreaks a team will give up. Wait that is not necessarily true or necessarily false. If a team would decide to send all 5 guys to the offensive board - they would really get a ton of offensive rebounds- but give up a ton of fastbreak layups - uncontested. But of course no team does that, some teams send two guys some teams send 1, some teams might send 2 plus one depending on where they are on the floor.

                        So Hicks I don't agree with your statement (it isn't that easy), but the bigger question is how a team goes about getting the offensive boards. If the Pacers are running the fastbreak well and running their halfcourt offense well, with good floor balance and the Pacers are taking good shots, then yes they can get some offensive rebs and still have a chance to get back on defense.

                        So I will grant you that the number of offensive rebs won't or shouldn't reflect on how many fastbreak points are given up - you can do both or you can do neither.
                        A great deal depends upon whether the opposing team is a fast break team or not. I am surprised that the Pacers are 8th in offensive rebounds but against a fast break team they should be going for the offensive rebound to prevent the fast break.

                        I have often seen no Pacer going for the rebound period to prevent the fast break. The statistic I would be interested in is whether other teams are getting more rebounds against the Pacers than they normally do.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

                          Originally posted by speakout4 View Post
                          but against a fast break team they should be going for the offensive rebound to prevent the fast break.
                          That just isn't a sound strategy and it won't work as you intend it to. But I need to ask what you mean. Do you mean you want the Pacers to commit more guys to go to the offensive boards - I know that won't work, but if you are talking about an overall strategy of good shot selection, floor balance, and sending 1 or 2 guys to the offensive board really hard - then it can be a successful strategy overall.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

                            Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                            That just isn't a sound strategy and it won't work as you intend it to. But I need to ask what you mean. Do you mean you want the Pacers to commit more guys to go to the offensive boards - I know that won't work, but if you are talking about an overall strategy of good shot selection, floor balance, and sending 1 or 2 guys to the offensive board really hard - then it can be a successful strategy overall.
                            There are times I see a shot put up and no one is going for the offensive rebound. That is not balance but poor strategy. Again the stat I would like to see is whether some teams rebound better against the pacers than they normally do.
                            JO and Tinsley are just not fast break kind of guys. JO is too big and Tinsley just doesn't have that kind of stamina IMO.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: No more fast breaks...ever....really. I'm begging.

                              Originally posted by speakout4
                              The statistic I would be interested in is whether other teams are getting more rebounds against the Pacers than they normally do.
                              In the agregate, the Pacers are getting 42.5 rebounds per game, and allowing opponents 43.2.


                              Teams that got more rebounds v. the Pacers than their season average, and how the Pacers fared:


                              Boston +11 (L)
                              Porland +10 (W)
                              Chicago +10 (L)
                              New Orleans +9 (L)
                              Milwaukee +6 (W)
                              Golden State +5 (W)
                              Charlotte +5 (W)


                              Teams that got fewer rebounds against the Pacers than their average:

                              New York -3 (W)
                              Denver -4 (L)
                              Orlando -8 (W)
                              Philadelphia -8 (W)

                              The other teams were within 1-2 of their average against the Pacers.

                              The Pacers have been blown out three times this season.

                              Against Washington, turnovers and poor shooting killed the Pacers. They got 10 more rebounds that the Wizards. Against Boston, the Pacers shot lousy, and didn't give themselves enough opportunities for second chance points because of poor rebounding (53-33). Against Denver, the Pacers shot almost the same FG%, and outrebounded the opponent 54-41. The story against Denver was turnovers, free throws and Denver scoring 11 3s.
                              And I won't be here to see the day
                              It all dries up and blows away
                              I'd hang around just to see
                              But they never had much use for me
                              In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

                              Comment

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