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Thread: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    behind a lot of the terrorism in Iraq & I think as time goes on it will show that this has been the case since day one.

    The single biggest mistake Rumsfield made in this war was to not give enough troops to secure the borders & I'm sure that there has been nothing but a constant supply since day one going on.

    I have no doubt in my mind that there are and have been agents of Iran on the ground involved both directly & in training/planning. I think we will all agree that ABC news is hardly a conservative source so I'm pretty sure there is nobody carrying water for the President in this story (at least from ABC's point)


    http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ory?id=2688501


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Yes and this is why it is absurd to suggest that Iran and Syria should be part of the peace process.

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    So, let's go get em!

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Yes and this is why it is absurd to suggest that Iran and Syria should be part of the peace process.
    How does this follow?

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    It could be that the main reason we are in Iraq is to set up a base of opperation in the case we need to attack Iran. Or maybe not. I will be spending my spring enjoying to sun just north of Bagdad I'm sure it should be loads of fun. BTW Peck is Pacer35 right

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by esabyrn333 View Post
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    It could be that the main reason we are in Iraq is to set up a base of opperation in the case we need to attack Iran. Or maybe not. I will be spending my spring enjoying to sun just north of Bagdad I'm sure it should be loads of fun. BTW Peck is Pacer35 right
    Um, no.

    Oooohhhhh that Pacers35.

    Well funny you should mention that. No, I am not him at all but that is my old core team brother (actually fellow pitbull from the core) who went by the moniker DaSmash.

    I used to have a great time posting with him & yes we have a very similar style in posting, well at least we used to I haven't seen his posts in years.

    BTW, I am assuming you are talking about Pacers35 from the star board right?

    Hey, good luck in Iraq. Our very own ABAdays is over there & has been there for almost a year (actually maybe a little longer).


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Yes and this is why it is absurd to suggest that Iran and Syria should be part of the peace process.
    It may be absurd. It's also inevitable. They're Iraq's two closest neighbors. Also, Iran's been in close contact with the Shia since Gulf War I and where a bunch of them went to escape Saddam. As for Iran being behind the violence since the beginning, I doubt it. It started because we left a complete vacuum which Al Qaeda found easy to infiltrate and which the Baathists could operate in. It wasn't until this spring that the Shia decided enough was enough.

    Of course since the Shia have gotten involved I have no doubt that Iran's been pumping men and money into them, especially Al-Sadr's army. It's in Iran's interest for Iraq to be 3 different, smaller countries rather than one - failing that, a Shia-dominated country (which would happen anyway).

    As for the biggest screw-up - there are so many to choose from. But I still vote for sending the entire Iraqi Army home with their weapons and no means of support. I think that move will eventually find it's way into a book titled, How to take violent men, arm them, and place them in a desperate situation where the only way they can feed their family is by utilizing their one salable skill - killing people.

    Out of the plethora of Iraq blunders, that one still feels special to me.

    G'luck over there esa. I have a good friend going house-to-house in Fallujah right now. Hopefully things will improve between now and when you go over.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Um, no.

    Oooohhhhh that Pacers35.

    Well funny you should mention that. No, I am not him at all but that is my old core team brother (actually fellow pitbull from the core) who went by the moniker DaSmash.

    I used to have a great time posting with him & yes we have a very similar style in posting, well at least we used to I haven't seen his posts in years.

    BTW, I am assuming you are talking about Pacers35 from the star board right?

    Hey, good luck in Iraq. Our very own ABAdays is over there & has been there for almost a year (actually maybe a little longer).
    Yea I was talking about the Indy Star board. I always liked the guy he could always seem to **** people off over there. It was always fun to read his posts.

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    IMPD Officer MarionDeputy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Yes and this is why it is absurd to suggest that Iran and Syria should be part of the peace process.
    Agreed 100%
    "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

    --Jack Nicholson as Colonel Nathan Jessup in A Few Good Men

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    So Ub and MDeputy, what do you guys suggest should be the course of action then in regards to this?

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by esabyrn333 View Post
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    It could be that the main reason we are in Iraq is to set up a base of opperation in the case we need to attack Iran. Or maybe not. I will be spending my spring enjoying to sun just north of Bagdad I'm sure it should be loads of fun. BTW Peck is Pacer35 right
    Where north? I am at Anaconda.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Kirkuk

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    Where north? I am at Anaconda.
    I believe that is where one of my civilian electricians was working before he came back to the states. What do you do over there?

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    I run a large recreation center for the military.

    Listen, good luck there and take care of yourself.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by efx View Post
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    So Ub and MDeputy, what do you guys suggest should be the course of action then in regards to this?
    A clear united message from the countries that are involved that will lead to diplomatic, and economic sanctions. If those sanctions prove not to be a deterrant, I would begin to bomb every nuclear reactor, water purification center, power station, military base/key military weapons and weapons production sites that I could. Factories, oil production facillities, anything that helps their military or economy I would destroy. Until they no longer had the capabillity of producing weapons and training that could be given to the insurgents.

    I also think the strategy in Iraq must change, our military needs to secure the boarders first, and put more pressure on Iraq to work on the internal stuff.

    It's not an easy question to answer....
    "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

    --Jack Nicholson as Colonel Nathan Jessup in A Few Good Men

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
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    I would begin to bomb every nuclear reactor, water purification center, power station, military base/key military weapons and weapons production sites that I could. Factories, oil production facillities, anything that helps their military or economy I would destroy. Until they no longer had the capabillity of producing weapons and training that could be given to the insurgents.

    I also think the strategy in Iraq must change, our military needs to secure the boarders first, and put more pressure on Iraq to work on the internal stuff.

    It's not an easy question to answer....
    I've read your post over ten times, and your proposal to bomb the hell out of the Middle East boggles the mind.

    C'mon you haven't begun to think this thing through. This ain't war games; this is real life.

    To make the U.S. military a permanent presence in the Middle East under hostile conditions is to assure a death toll of American troops in the tens of thousands. A half of million troops wouldn't begin to be able to accomplish what you propose once all out war breaks out in the Middle East.

    This is not an outcome that the citizens of this country will accept. And our unilateral actions would make us the pariahs of the world.

    The depth of your opinion is on a par with the the thinking of the Muslim fanatic. Only difference is those guys are willing to blow themselves up. God help us.

    We already have lost 3,000 troops to a botched war brought on by a bunch of cowards or nitwits who weren't willing to ask the American people to do what had to be done to accomplish what they set out to do. Let's not compound matters by adding to the stupidity. It is too late to force a democracy on the people of Iraq. We may be a world super power, as some like to brag, but what we need is to know the limitation of our power. A little humility, respect for others, and common sense are much needed now. The answer is not to expand our presence in the Middle East outside Iraq with bombs and economic deprivation.

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    sixthman, I have to wholeheartedly agree. When the Chinese came to the defense of North Korea in the Korean war, Truman had the option of nuking the hell out of China. He had many, many respected generals and people in the state department begging him to pull the trigger and level Beijing. The choice was clear: America was losing in Korea, and bombing the hell out of China with our thousands of nukes would have certainly changed things. Thank god he did not. In fact, he said that the reason wasn't military, it was that he couldn't live with killing 25 million Chinese civilians. He also said he just couldn't sign the document starting WWIII. Not everything Truman did was right, but boy that was. Let's hope this crowd in charge now has as much sense.

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The single biggest mistake Rumsfield made in this war was to not give enough troops to secure the borders & I'm sure that there has been nothing but a constant supply since day one going on.
    We can't seem to find the manpower to seal our own southern borders, so I don't see how anyone thinks we could have successfully monitored the borders in Iraq.

    The single biggest mistake made by TPTB was thinking we could successfully occupy Iraq on the cheap. We disregarded our own studies that showed 400,000 troops wouldn't be enough manpower to successfully occupy Iraq.

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthman View Post
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    I've read your post over ten times, and your proposal to bomb the hell out of the Middle East boggles the mind.

    C'mon you haven't begun to think this thing through. This ain't war games; this is real life.

    To make the U.S. military a permanent presence in the Middle East under hostile conditions is to assure a death toll of American troops in the tens of thousands. A half of million troops wouldn't begin to be able to accomplish what you propose once all out war breaks out in the Middle East.

    This is not an outcome that the citizens of this country will accept. And our unilateral actions would make us the pariahs of the world.

    The depth of your opinion is on a par with the the thinking of the Muslim fanatic. Only difference is those guys are willing to blow themselves up. God help us.

    We already have lost 3,000 troops to a botched war brought on by a bunch of cowards or nitwits who weren't willing to ask the American people to do what had to be done to accomplish what they set out to do. Let's not compound matters by adding to the stupidity. It is too late to force a democracy on the people of Iraq. We may be a world super power, as some like to brag, but what we need is to know the limitation of our power. A little humility, respect for others, and common sense are much needed now. The answer is not to expand our presence in the Middle East outside Iraq with bombs and economic deprivation.
    So you would suggest sitting with our thumb in our mouth while we wave our other finger at them saying "No, No, No"?

    These people(middle eastern fanatics) only understand violence, anything else is a show of weakness. Crush their abillity to make war, and support terrorism, and maybe the non-fanatics have a chance to over throw these ridiculous governments.

    A little humility, respect for others, and common sense are much needed now.
    How can you say that to me? Tell it to the terrorists and the state sponsored countries that brought us 9/11. Tell that to the survivors families. Humility, respect and common sense are traits of a free democratic society, not some theocratic dictatorship. You put no responsiblity on them at all.

    If you grab the tiger by the tail, you had better have a plan for dealing with it's teeth.
    "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

    --Jack Nicholson as Colonel Nathan Jessup in A Few Good Men

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
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    So you would suggest sitting with our thumb in our mouth while we wave our other finger at them saying "No, No, No"?
    Nobody, nobody, nobody has ever said anything like this. This is the worst kind of Strawmanning.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
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    These people(middle eastern fanatics) only understand violence, anything else is a show of weakness. Crush their abillity to make war, and support terrorism, and maybe the non-fanatics have a chance to over throw these ridiculous governments.
    This could be a quote from any dictator in history. This is exactly the opposite of what you say later that democracies are supposed to behave. See...

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
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    Humility, respect and common sense are traits of a free democratic society, not some theocratic dictatorship. You put no responsiblity on them at all.
    And how do you "put responsibility" on another country? By attacking it?


    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
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    If you grab the tiger by the tail, you had better have a plan for dealing with it's teeth.
    Somebody should have said this to Bush before he went off half cocked aggressively attacking countries.

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    IMPD Officer MarionDeputy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Ok Sixthman and 3ball,

    What would you guys do to curb the insurgency?

    How would you go about firming up the Iraqi government?

    How would you deal with a Syria or Iran that seems hell-bent on torpedo-ing any peacful stabiliazation?

    How would you deal with Al Queda?
    "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

    --Jack Nicholson as Colonel Nathan Jessup in A Few Good Men

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
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    Ok Sixthman and 3ball,

    What would you guys do to curb the insurgency?

    How would you go about firming up the Iraqi government?

    How would you deal with a Syria or Iran that seems hell-bent on torpedo-ing any peacful stabiliazation?

    How would you deal with Al Queda?
    Fair enough. First of all, let me say that I definitely don't have all of the answers. A big part of what we need to do is empower the people that are good at this kind of thing and give them a mission that maximizes our chances of success within a moral/ethical framework that we can live with.

    As to Iraq, I would bow to the wishes of the vast majority of the Iraqi people and begin withdrawing troops immediately. It's their country, and we have absolutely no right to be there if they don't want us there. That said, we need to recognize that we have a huge moral obligation to help the people of a country that we basically destroyed by propping up their dictator and then bombing the hell out them. I would pay massive reparations, in the billions a year, and I would pledge humanitarian support until the country is back on its feet. I would support democratic reformers there are anywhere in the world that support is needed.

    Al Qaeda is a criminal organization that needs to be ended. I would fight them on a law enforcement basis, and work in an incredibly concentrated way to form international partners to bring them down. I wouldn't invade any more countries, as that doesn't seem to be particularly effective.

    The most important thing we can do to help stabilize the middle east is to stop standing in the way of a Israel/Palestinian settlement. I would announce immediately stop all aid to Israel, political, financial, and military until they completely withdraw from all occupied territories and cease military incursions into Palestine. At the same time I would pledge $1 billion a month for 5 years to Palestine for each month that goes by without terrorist attack. For any month with an attack, they get nothing.

    I would make security guarantees to Iran, Syria, and North Korea with the condition that they halt their nuclear programs and submit to inspections. I would also end OUR nuclear programs and pledge to destroy 99% of our nuclear capabilities in 10 years and submit to inspections.

    I think there are bad people in the world, and we need to act powerfully against them. On the other hand, we can't become the bad guys ourselves in doing so. Law enforcement in the United States isn't perfect, but it is pretty damn good. And most of our police, etc. do a pretty good job of treating citizens humanely in the process. (The prison system is another story.) We need to become an actor in the world that WE would accept. In other words, we shouldn't be engaged in anything that we wouldn't allow, say, China to do also. Otherwise we are hypocrites. By and large, scaring other countries into cowering to our will has not been a good solution, and it definitely does not work in the nuclear age.

  23. #23
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    So basically you are buying your way to safety.

    Now when every other terroist driven country in the wolrd decides to play the "we'll not attack for X amount of months in exchange for X amount of dollars" what will you have us do then? I'm assuming pay them as well.

    Now at the end of your five years of bought peace, what will you do when they say that we cannot stop paying them because they need that money to exist for humanitarian reasons? I'm assuming you'll pay more.

    Again I'm going to assume you've done a poll to every Iraqi & it showed you the vast majority of them want us gone. So when we leave & the Iranian led Shiea in the south decide that it's time to get some payback for all of the years Sunni brutality you'll be ok with that because we are out of the country. Or when either side decides that the Kurds in the north were to friendly to America and decide it's time to lay out a few villages you'll be fine with that as well because we are gone.

    As to treating Al Quida as a criminal group like you would the mafia. I'm sorry but that didn't work before & it won't work now. I know your not going to like this but by aggressively attacking & killing Al Quida members around the world we have stopped them cold here in the U.S.

    You will never EVER convince me that is has nothing to do with aggresively attacking them.

    What security guarantee's are you making to Syria, Iran & North Korea? I'm assuming that if your way were to ever be tried, & I pray to God it never is, we won't need to make any guarantees to them because we will be scaling back our military to the size of the California National Guard. Or are you saying that we guarantee their safety? So if someone attacks them we will fight for them?

    By acting powerfully against bad people in this world what do you mean? I can only envision your world view of having a Interpol agent deliver them a court notice. Or did you have something else in mind.

    I know you don't mean take out the bad person because then I would have to ask you what you would do if that bad person was being given refuge in a country.

    Just out of curiosity, & I mean no disrespect, do you work at a college or go to college?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Ball View Post
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    Fair enough. First of all, let me say that I definitely don't have all of the answers. A big part of what we need to do is empower the people that are good at this kind of thing and give them a mission that maximizes our chances of success within a moral/ethical framework that we can live with.

    As to Iraq, I would bow to the wishes of the vast majority of the Iraqi people and begin withdrawing troops immediately. It's their country, and we have absolutely no right to be there if they don't want us there. That said, we need to recognize that we have a huge moral obligation to help the people of a country that we basically destroyed by propping up their dictator and then bombing the hell out them. I would pay massive reparations, in the billions a year, and I would pledge humanitarian support until the country is back on its feet. I would support democratic reformers there are anywhere in the world that support is needed.

    Al Qaeda is a criminal organization that needs to be ended. I would fight them on a law enforcement basis, and work in an incredibly concentrated way to form international partners to bring them down. I wouldn't invade any more countries, as that doesn't seem to be particularly effective.

    The most important thing we can do to help stabilize the middle east is to stop standing in the way of a Israel/Palestinian settlement. I would announce immediately stop all aid to Israel, political, financial, and military until they completely withdraw from all occupied territories and cease military incursions into Palestine. At the same time I would pledge $1 billion a month for 5 years to Palestine for each month that goes by without terrorist attack. For any month with an attack, they get nothing.

    I would make security guarantees to Iran, Syria, and North Korea with the condition that they halt their nuclear programs and submit to inspections. I would also end OUR nuclear programs and pledge to destroy 99% of our nuclear capabilities in 10 years and submit to inspections.

    I think there are bad people in the world, and we need to act powerfully against them. On the other hand, we can't become the bad guys ourselves in doing so. Law enforcement in the United States isn't perfect, but it is pretty damn good. And most of our police, etc. do a pretty good job of treating citizens humanely in the process. (The prison system is another story.) We need to become an actor in the world that WE would accept. In other words, we shouldn't be engaged in anything that we wouldn't allow, say, China to do also. Otherwise we are hypocrites. By and large, scaring other countries into cowering to our will has not been a good solution, and it definitely does not work in the nuclear age.
    I can't condone buying peace, which seems exactly what you are suggesting. If somebody repeatedly punched you in the nose, would you pay them to stop, or would you break their arm so they couldn't punch you anymore?

    Your idea about giving the Palestenians 1 billion a month is outrageous. Although I agree, that the Israelies are definitiely part of the problem, do you know what would happen if we gave them 1 Billion each month? They would stock pile billions worth of weapons and then go after Israel with it. It's been proven time and time again. The PLO has liquidated humanitarian aid in the past just to buy weapons. Until the Palestinans concede that Israel should not be wiped off the map, I can give them no support. Israel made some major concessions in the last couple of years of by forcing the removal of settlers from the contested lands, only to be thanked by a new rash of terrorist attacks from Hamas.

    Going after terrorists using only law enforcement is a mistake as well. If we found out where Bin Laden was today, I wouldn't want the FBI HRT team going to try to arrest him. I would want to see an unmanned drone drop a Hellfire missle down his hole. Arresting people, gives them rights, both legal and humanitarian, these are not rights that the terrorists would ever give us.

    I respect your peacful and pacifist approach, but in the long run I think it gives the terrorists exactly what they want.
    "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post."

    --Jack Nicholson as Colonel Nathan Jessup in A Few Good Men

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    Default Re: Well as I've always suspected, Iran has been

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
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    Arresting people, gives them rights, both legal and humanitarian, these are not rights that the terrorists would ever give us.
    I completely agree with this statement. So are we terrorists that don't respect human rights? Or are we a Democratic country that does?

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