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Thread: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

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    Member Frank Slade's Avatar
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    Default O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    Pacers notebook
    O'Neal wants consistent rotation

    By Mark Montieth
    mark.montieth@indystar.com


    TORONTO -- Rick Carlisle has tinkered with his starting lineup and his playing rotation in an attempt to find a winning combination for the Indiana Pacers.

    He mentioned the possibility of more changes following Sunday's 92-83 loss to Toronto. Forward/center Jermaine O'Neal, however, would like to see a more consistent approach.

    "We're going to have to pick a rotation," O'Neal said. "We have to find it soon. There's no way you can get a rhythm as a team with guys in and out of there. You have to pick somebody and you have to roll with them. If that doesn't work, then you change it."

    O'Neal, who finished with 15 points, 11 rebounds and three blocked shots, also was frustrated by the offense late in the game.

    The Pacers were still clinging to hope after cutting a 19-point fourth-quarter deficit to eight on Stephen Jackson's 3-pointer with 3:11 left. They had two shots to get closer, but Jackson and Danny Granger each missed 3-pointers.
    Toronto's Chris Bosh followed with a layup, securing the outcome.

    O'Neal complained to the coaches as he walked to the bench for the timeout that followed Bosh's basket. He got the ball on the first play after the break and drew a foul after rebounding two of his own misses. He hit both foul shots.

    "I always want the ball in situations where we need baskets," O'Neal said. "They were playing one-on-one coverage. I fully trust my teammates, but at that particular time, they weren't making shots and if they're not making shots, I want the ball to make things happen."

    The gods are angry

    Indiana's Al Harrington continued to struggle with his shooting Sunday, hitting 4-of-15 shots.

    He hit 5-of-9 shots in Friday's win over Cleveland, but was 5-of-24 in the two previous games.

    Although he's no fan of the NBA's new ball, he doesn't hold it responsible.

    "The good thing about it is, I'm not off too much," said Harrington, who had a game-high 14 rebounds. "They're right on line; they just won't go in.

    "I believe in basketball gods. I must have done something wrong. I'm trying to make it right with them. Hopefully they'll start going in soon."

    Carlisle's also confident.

    "Looking long term, I'm not worried about Al struggling offensively," he said. "I'm more worried about the energy and decision-making of our team."

    Baston still waiting

    Maceo Baston, who was activated for Sunday's game but did not play, has made just four appearances this season.

    That's not what he had in mind last summer when he signed a free agent contract with the Pacers, but he doesn't regret leaving the powerful Maccabi team in Israel.

    "It's still early in the season," he said. "Maybe this will be a learning experience and next year will be better."

    Carlisle and Pacers president Larry Bird both express confidence in Baston's ability.

    "I'm not disappointed in him at all," Bird said. "I think he belongs in this league. He adds something we need out there and his time will come."

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  2. #2
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    "We're going to have to pick a rotation," O'Neal said. "We have to find it soon. There's no way you can get a rhythm as a team with guys in and out of there. You have to pick somebody and you have to roll with them. If that doesn't work, then you change it."

    Uhhhhhhh.... contradiction?



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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    That's what I've been saying all along. Why Montieth chooses to quote JO instead of me is mind-boggling. Really though the biggest problem the Pacers have had the last few seasons is no consistent starting lineup due to injury or suspensions. For the first time in a long time everybody's healthy and available, yet Carlisle keeps shuffling the lineup. I'll say it again, there is no award for "Most Lineups Used". Start the projected starting lineup...Tinsley, Jackson,Granger, Al & JO bring Daniels, Runi & Foster off the bench and the rest of the guys will get spot minutes here and there. By spot minutes I mean Armstrong still gets 10-15 and the rest of the guys get in when needed.


    Baston isn't the savior. He's right where he belongs, in line with the other insurance policy players. He's not gonna take minutes away from Al, JO or Foster.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    You have to pick somebody and you have to roll with them. If that doesn't work, then you change it."
    Um, JO, weren't you present at all those crap starts? I think we all know WHY Rick was tinkering with the rotation after having it pretty well set earlier in the year. THIS IS the "well that doesn't seem to be quite working, let's adjust" period. It's not game 5 anymore.

    I mean I don't consider it "bail out, trade away" time at all, but swapping out a SINGLE player from the starting lineup isn't exactly a total overhaul. Jack has been shooting terribly and seemed agreeable to going to the bench; he certainly seemed to understand that his shooting was a problem.

    It's not like Tins, Granger, JO and Al have been in and out of the starting lineup, or even like the minutes have varied that much for players. Jack has continued to get into the 30+ range coming off the bench.


    If you ignore the SG position and guys out for injury, how many different lineups have they used? Have the bench guys varied that much? I have been seeing DA, Foster, Daniels, Sarunas, and Rawle as the main bench players, with dashes of Powell, Harrison, and Baston.

    Daniels saw a DNP (unknown) and some starts when Jack struggled, but that's been AFTER the team struggled to find good starts. Rick has then tried Rawle starting for a few games.

    This is NOT crazy lineup variation, especially in light of the lackluster start to the season in which on-court chemistry in the starting lineup has been suspect to say the least.


    "I always want the ball in situations where we need baskets," O'Neal said. "They were playing one-on-one coverage. I fully trust my teammates, but at that particular time, they weren't making shots and if they're not making shots, I want the ball to make things happen."
    Look, I've been promoting JO's season as much as anyone, the dude is tearing it up. However, since when did JO get the rep for late clutch scoring? To me he's not talking sense, he's talking frustration. He certainly didn't mind when Jack hit the 3 a few plays before the Danny and Jack misses, so it sounds a lot more like "well, if they make them then they should take them, but otherwise give the ball to me"...good plan if you have a crystal ball. Maybe try not being down double digits to TOR in the 4th, that makes these worries moot.

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    Member J_2_Da_IzzO's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    Harrington thinks hes not off too much? Lol.
    My Dream Team

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    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    JO is starting to **** me off. STFU and play already.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    I respectfully disagree Seth.

    The game against the Wizards. JO sits out. Instead of sliding Foster into the starting spot he starts Harrison? David had played 22 minutes in the previous 4 games with 10 of those coming in opening night. Rick has this crazy notion that the second unit must remain intact. He did similar roster moves last year when Tinsley went down and in the 60 win season when Tinsley went down. I don't understand when the third string guy is a better option to start the game than the backup guy. BTW, the following game Harrison played 1:46. On top of that he's played 8 minutes in the 9 games following his start with injury being the main culprit I suppose.

    Daniels starts in place of Jackson for three games. Then doesn't even get in the next game and played 10 minutes vs the Raptors.

    Rawle gets the nod in the two games after Daniels. He plays 16 minutes combined. In his first start, Marshall surpasses 10 minutes of game time for the fourth time this year. He plays the first 7 minutes vs the Cavs then the final 30 seconds of the half then 2 minutes in the third. He plays the first 6 minutes vs the Raptors never to be seen again.

    Foster gets the start for Al vs the Bucks. He has the best game of any of the experimental starters with 9 boards a block and 11 points. The other three "starters" combine for 11 boards 7 assists and 15 points in their 6 starts.

    Carlisle is unorthodox is his substitution patterns. Especially when it comes to replacing a starter due to injury or otherwise. Why a guy would go from playing very little to starting and vice versa is puzzling to me.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    JO is starting to **** me off. STFU and play already.
    There's room in the JO, STFU and Play Club.

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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    There's room in the JO, STFU and Play Club.

    -Bball
    I'm in that club too but not 2 worry, when have they ever listened to JO? Have they brought in any of the players he recommended? No.

    TPTB are called that because they do not give their power away. They keep all of the control to themselves and in a couple of instances I can think of I'm not sure THAT was even a good idea. But none the less, they do not allow the players to dictate to them and for that I am grateful.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    Disagree? What about stats.

    Of the games where players were available to start...
    JO 13 of 13
    Al 13 of 13
    Granger 14 of 14
    Tinsely 14 of 14

    Jack 9 of 14

    Of Jack's 5 non-starts (the last 5 games in a row, not sporadic) his minutes are: 32, 33, 37, 25, 36

    Rawle's has played in 13 games with 2 starts. He averages 9.2 MPG, and in his 2 starts he got 10 and 6 minutes. He's only been over 15 minutes 4 times this season, typically because he has had it going that night.

    The main bench as I listed it - DA, Foster, Saras, Daniels and Rawle - all have played 13 or 14 games so far.

    Saras gets 16 MPG - he has been 5 more than 5 minutes above or below that 4 times (2 below and the last 2 games he was well above)

    DA gets 13 MPG - he's had 2 games outside the 5 minute window, 2 of 7 minutes and one at 19 (early in the season BTW).

    Foster gets 21 MPG - he's had 4 games outside his window, 2 lower early in the season, 2 a little higher a few weeks ago. 9 of his games have been from 18-24 minutes played.

    Daniels gets 21 MPG - 6 of his have been within 3 minutes of that, and only 3 times has he played 5 minutes outside his average. 1 game early in the year was 15 minutes, another a few weeks ago was 33 vs NJ (when he had 5 steals, 5-10 FG, and 7 rebounds). His other low game was vs TOR yesterday which came after a mysterious DNP, which indicates "internal issue" like an argument or missed practice or both perhaps.


    Harrison and Foster got their starts on games where Al and JO sat with injury. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Al and JO are BIGS, and Jeff and Harrison are also BIGS, what's unorthodox about that starter replacement? You call this "experimental". Can you explain why Foster starting when Al is out is experimental please.


    Daniels and Rawle both have had their chances to start over Jack because Jack struggled to shoot well in the teams first nine games. Something appears to have happened with Daniels before the CLE game which is where Rawle stepped in (it could have been an argument about starting Rawle, but my guess considering Rawle's minutes is that there was a problem with MD).

    Starting your backup SG for your starting SG is the farthest thing from unorthodox. So I'm still wondering what "crazy" starting sub it is you are talking about.


    Harrison, Powell, Greene and Baston all sit OUTSIDE the 10 man rotation and only pick up bits and pieces. Only Harrison has played in half the games this year and only Powell has seen more than 10 mpg (in 3 appearances). Harrison's 7 GPs came in the team's first 8 which includes his start. David played his way out of the rotation or is injured, but the trajectory is pretty clear.



    This team is 7-7 and has had many rough starts to games. The amount of changes they have done compared to the norm in these circumstances is actually probably a little low. Only the Daniels thing came as a surprise and it has all the markings of an issue rather than a strategic choice.


    Rick has this crazy notion that the second unit must remain intact.
    = inconsistant in your head? And it happened ONCE, Jeff started when Al sat.

    You've got a little paradox going there, and besides Harrison got the start EARLY in the year, and in that game Foster came in for him about 3-4 minutes into the 1st and 3rd (both times with David in the negative on the +/-, ie the team wasn't winning either quarter).

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    Member Moses's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    Well, I see what O'Neal is saying.

    You have to stick the most talented players in the game at all times, period, unless they are unefficient at a certain position. I think we need to put our most talented guys of each position in the game and stick with that as our lineup for a few games.

    In my mind..thats:
    PG: Tins
    SG: Quis
    SF: Jack
    PF: JO
    C: Harrington

    You have to stick with a lineup at one point or another or they will never develop any chemistry. We wont know if players are good fits for eachother if they don't get a chance to play with eachother on a consistent basis and know eachothers tendencies and whatnot.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    JO seems to be coaching the team almost as much as Carlisle is.

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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    Ditto UB - what I am bothered by is the fact that JO is talking to the media and underminding Rick... not the place for that. Not in the paper, not on TV, and not in the locker room. Enough of this.

    I think the team needs separation and everyone needs restraining orders from one another. Permanently.
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    JO seems to be coaching the team almost as much as Carlisle is.
    I agree with you on this one and I think that JO will be gone next year.

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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    "I believe in basketball gods. I must have done something wrong. I'm trying to make it right with them. Hopefully they'll start going in soon."
    Clearly, Al Harrington has been on my fantasy team too long. He's starting to talk like me now.

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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    I agree that the substitution patterns have been erratic. Carlise seems to be the kind of coach that subs according to matchups as opposed to someone who has a set rotation and the players come in a play at specific points in the game. Jerry Sloan during Stockton and Malone's best years used this philosophy. Backup PG Harold Eisley always came in at the beginning of the second quarter and played a consistent number of minutes every game even if Stockton was playing great or not. It didn't matter if he played badly or well he got consistent minutes. When a player comes in and knows that he is going to get consistent minutes he can concentrate on playing and not worrying about mistakes. He can get into the flow of the game, find a rhythym with his shot and breake a sweat. I don't think people realize how difficult it is to sit for a sizeable amount of time and then come cold of the bench and be expected to hit shots. Consequently, if he plays well he stays, if he doesn't he sits after his allotted time on the floor. That is what having a consistent rotation is all about. It's not about playing 20 plus minutes one game and then suddenly 5 in the next. When players know that they have a well defined role on the team and consistent minutes they will perform. Carlise tends to swing much more toward the "I'll play you if the matchup is right philosophy". Even NBA players have to feel confident that they will stay on the floor if they make a few mistakes.

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    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Quote:
    "I believe in basketball gods. I must have done something wrong. I'm trying to make it right with them. Hopefully they'll start going in soon."

    Clearly, Al Harrington has been on my fantasy team too long. He's starting to talk like me now.
    If Al is looking for things he's done wrong, he may want to start at the top of his head..........
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    "We're going to have to pick a rotation," O'Neal said. "We have to find it soon. There's no way you can get a rhythm as a team with guys in and out of there. You have to pick somebody and you have to roll with them. If that doesn't work, then you change it."

    I agree with this quote 100%. The Pacers have always seemed to play better without JO in the lineup. Lets give it a try and see what happens.

    I still believe we traded the wrong malcontent.

  19. #19
    Banned Destined4Greatness's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    JO has no right to ask for a consistent rotation. Hell nobody on this team has a right to ask for that.

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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    If Al is looking for things he's done wrong, he may want to start at the top of his head..........
    Are you kidding, other than his rebounding, that's the only thing he's done right this season.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    I think the problem is Al and JO not quite being able to play together. I think JO knows it and it frustrates him. Al should probably come off the bench. Even in the Milwaukee game where he had 18 rebounds, at the end where we went on our huge run Marquis came in for offense and Jeff for defense.

    I think everyone should just calm down. Whoever it is on here that says that this is a two-year thing, at least, is right. It's a big project. We have to be patient. For some reason people were expecting a contender this year? I look around and only three teams in the East have a better record than us and we still have yet to figure much stuff out. True, Chicago, Miami, and NJ won't be down for long but the things I'm hearing out of those camps is not that great. Fourth-best record in the east after about fifteen games? I'll take it.

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    Why should anyone care what Jermaine wants? Oh yea, that's right he's the star.

    He's not making this easy on me. Actually, he's making this very easy on me.

    I love this, pick a lineup & stick with it. Suuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrreeeeeeeee that's the reason that he was unhappy.

    Oh wait, hmmmm..... Could it be...... Why there it is in his own wonderfull words.

    "I always want the ball in situations where we need baskets," O'Neal said. "They were playing one-on-one coverage. I fully trust my teammates, but at that particular time, they weren't making shots and if they're not making shots, I want the ball to make things happen."

    The answer to all of life's problems can be solved with more Jermaine O'Neal low post offense. I love the Pacers but...... Well frankly this is getting to be more than I can take.

    Do you have any idea how hard it is for me to sit here & read hoopsforlife talk about trading the wrong malcontent & not disagreeing with him? I feel like a fool.

    I am very very curious about one thing right now, what would Jermaine O'Neal think of Reggie Miller if Reggie had not deffered to Jermaine when he came here? Reggie was trying as hard as he could to give this franchise to anybody by that time, he tried Jalen & that didn't work. So what if Reggie wasn't so willing to go away.


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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I am very very curious about one thing right now, what would Jermaine O'Neal think of Reggie Miller if Reggie had not deffered to Jermaine when he came here? Reggie was trying as hard as he could to give this franchise to anybody by that time, he tried Jalen & that didn't work. So what if Reggie wasn't so willing to go away.
    I'm wondering two things about that:
    Did Reggie help create the monster or did Reggie bend over backwards not to make the monster angry...


    -Bball
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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Banned Destined4Greatness's Avatar
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    Default Re: O'Neal wants consistent rotation {IndyStar}

    BTW I am so happy that we cut White, a guy with a promising future for a guy that is what 30+ who has made all of 4 appearances this season.

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