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Thread: Interesting +/- info

  1. #26

    Default Re: Interesting +/- info

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    The only stats I care about are individual stats-not +/- or 48 minute or anything else.I rate players by their ability to do more than one thing. For example Howard is now becoming a 20-20 guy in points and rebounds which is unheard of. To be a superstar at PF, 20-10 is required. A great PG not only has to have close to double digit assists but double digit points. someone like Kidd could be a triple double on any night. IMO guys who stand out must do so in at least 2 categories and if not in two categories must be really excellent in one such as AI who can put up 30 points a game or Kobe who can do the same.

    So on the Pacers JO is really the only star we have. Artest was good for points and even better in taking away points from the other team. No one has to look at all the other stuff. If you get 10 assists, 10 rebounds, or 5-6 blocked shots a game you are helping the team period.
    Maybe it's helping him, but not teamplay. Maybe other guys are playing worse with that guy than they could and the team losses.
    Individual stats are useful, but there are more things in the game than only individual stats.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler."

    - Albert Einstein

  2. #27

    Default Re: Interesting +/- info

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitons View Post
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    Maybe it's helping him, but not teamplay. Maybe other guys are playing worse with that guy than they could and the team losses.
    Individual stats are useful, but there are more things in the game than only individual stats.

    How can points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots not help the team????

  3. #28
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting +/- info

    Speakout has a great point.

    +/- is far too complicated and can make a mediocre player seem better than he is or a bonafide star seems less than.

    Per 48 is a fantasy stat. If Armstong had to play 48 minutes would he hit the ground running like he does when he's only getting 5-15 minutes.

    I too would take a 20-10 guy or 35 a night guy or a 15 boards 5 blocks guy or a 10 assists 10 points guy or a triple double threat or an excellent defender over what any of those other stats say.

  4. #29

    Default Re: Interesting +/- info

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    How can points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots not help the team????
    It helps, I didn't say it doesn't, but maybe with that player others can't play that good that they are able. Maybe he plays alone and the team losses despite his 50 points.
    The team should be a strong unit, the players must understand each other to make each other better.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler."

    - Albert Einstein

  5. #30

    Default Re: Interesting +/- info

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    Speakout has a great point.

    +/- is far too complicated and can make a mediocre player seem better than he is or a bonafide star seems less than.

    Per 48 is a fantasy stat. If Armstong had to play 48 minutes would he hit the ground running like he does when he's only getting 5-15 minutes.

    I too would take a 20-10 guy or 35 a night guy or a 15 boards 5 blocks guy or a 10 assists 10 points guy or a triple double threat or an excellent defender over what any of those other stats say.
    Yes, +/- is more a team stat.

    You can take 20-10 guy, but you can never have a TEAM which wins. A team is more than individual stats.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler."

    - Albert Einstein

  6. #31

    Default Re: Interesting +/- info

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitons View Post
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    That's all I wanted to hear. Not that +/- is absolutely BS.
    I think that there might be a language barrier here. I never got the impression that anyone said it was BS. Dr. Goldfoot most likely doesn't thinkthey are absolutely BS or he wouldn't have posted them in the first place. Some of our European posters seem so defensive about certain players that they misread the point.

    Maybe on both sides of the Atlantic need to check first what the other is saying before sending another thread into a nitpicking debate. These debates get tiring after a while.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  7. #32

    Default Re: Interesting +/- info

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian View Post
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    I think that there might be a language barrier here. I never got the impression that anyone said it was BS. Dr. Goldfoot most likely doesn't thinkthey are absolutely BS or he wouldn't have posted them in the first place. Some of our European posters seem so defensive about certain players that they misread the point.

    Maybe on both sides of the Atlantic need to check first what the other is saying before sending another thread into a nitpicking debate. These debates get tiring after a while.
    Point understood.
    "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler."

    - Albert Einstein

  8. #33
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting +/- info

    The stat maybe useless in one game. It is useful in a longer term. I explained that when I talked about bad DG game and his +/-.
    In the spirit of this I figured the Euros that were so outraged about Saras would want to revisit the +/- down the road.

    Hmm, Sarunas is falling off, Granger is the 2nd worst player on the team to only Tinsley and what do you know, Jackson is pretty good relative to most of the team. He's on the verge of catching Saras in this stat.

    Will it then prove the point that Saras SHOULDN'T start? Of course not. It will prove that it's an interesting, sometimes informative, but also quirky stat, just like I said last month. I will say the per48 version looks somewhat like the impact I've seen on the court. DA has been less of an impact than he was to start the year, but otherwise it's not way off.


    It's just funny to me because fans that would throw Tins under the bus would typically want to promote Danny, but their +/- are about the same. And then on the other end the case for Saras looks about the same as the case for Jackson.

  9. #34

    Default Re: Interesting +/- info

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    In the spirit of this I figured the Euros that were so outraged about Saras would want to revisit the +/- down the road.

    Hmm, Sarunas is falling off, Granger is the 2nd worst player on the team to only Tinsley and what do you know, Jackson is pretty good relative to most of the team. He's on the verge of catching Saras in this stat.

    Will it then prove the point that Saras SHOULDN'T start? Of course not. It will prove that it's an interesting, sometimes informative, but also quirky stat, just like I said last month. I will say the per48 version looks somewhat like the impact I've seen on the court. DA has been less of an impact than he was to start the year, but otherwise it's not way off.


    It's just funny to me because fans that would throw Tins under the bus would typically want to promote Danny, but their +/- are about the same. And then on the other end the case for Saras looks about the same as the case for Jackson.
    I think the +- is an important tool, and I actually think your points are very valid. Danny & Saras, while scoring well lately, have been less productive for the team.
    Personally I don't think that if Saras / Danny were having good +- it means they should start. It rather means they were good for the team in their current roles.
    As for the starting PG having horrible +- figures, this is a bad sign for the team. Nevertheless, I was watching the stat lately, and judging by the numbers, Tins was doing quite well in the last 7 games or so.

  10. #35

    Default Re: Interesting +/- info

    Quote Originally Posted by Seed
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    Personally I don't think that if Saras / Danny were having good +- it means they should start. It rather means they were good for the team in their current roles.


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  11. #36
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Interesting +/- info

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Sheer profundity!!!
    I agree!

    I really like it to gauge long term situations, especially between guys in similar roles (like the starters, or 25-30+ mpg).

    Anyway, I'm just making this the general +/- talk thread for the season I guess. Following up from a few games ago, and I think I'll start posting the current +/- so it's easier to watch trends rather than just the current total (maybe weekly I guess). Don't let my previous post fool you, I obviously do follow this stat just like any of the others. I hate that you can't see it by month or anything at Pacers.com.

    The big bump here is that JO moved to the top, and that Jackson moved ahead of Sarunas and is 3rd total for the team (and per minute).

    Dec 22 (pre Atlanta game - Atl numbers not posted yet)
    Let's have total and per 48:

    45 (2.7) JO
    33 (4.9) Armstrong
    5 (0.3) Jack
    0 (0.0) Saras
    -6 (-6.9) Shawne

    -14 (-1.1) Foster
    -17 (-4.8) Baston
    -26 (-32.0) Greene
    -28 (-17.9) Harrison
    -29 (-21.8) Powell

    -42 (-14.0) Rawle
    -46 (-2.7) Danny
    -46 (-2.7) Tinsley
    -49 (-2.9) Harrington
    -50 (-5.8) Daniels

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