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Thread: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

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    Default Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    So what's the verdict tonight everybody?

    I liked the energy. Good to see Tins have a good game. Quis earned his down the stretch minutes. Hope his activity becomes a constant.

    Too many errors and inability to make plays down the stretch. Jason Kidd is a monster. Three game losing skid. How will come back with a back to back on the road tomorrow?

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    Glad to see a little fight after a tough start. They hung around and finally got hot in the 3rd quarter. The Pacers are a streak shooting team, as a unit. Very strange.

    Down the stretch the Pacers needed a go to guy and no one stepped up.

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    After how many games is it appropriate to stop calling it a slump and start calling it a bad player?

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    Refs were horrible.


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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    After how many games is it appropriate to stop calling it a slump and start calling it a bad player?


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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    After how many games is it appropriate to stop calling it a slump and start calling it a bad player?
    Don't know. Your mind is obviously already made up though. I don't think Jack is a bad player. I don't think he's a good player either. But I think he has played reasonably well in most aspects other than shooting. And, as we know, he's never been a particularly good shooter.

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    Don't know. Your mind is obviously already made up though. I don't think Jack is a bad player. I don't think he's a good player either. But I think he has played reasonably well in most aspects other than shooting. And, as we know, he's never been a particularly good shooter.
    I'm willing to accept that he's not a bad player, but if he has never been a particularly good shooter, perhaps he should be taking 11 shots a game? That's all I'm saying...

    Plus, since we all know Tinsley can't shoot, we're gonna need someone in the backcourt to start making shots...and Marquis Daniels sure ain't gonna get the job done.

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    I'm willing to accept that he's not a bad player, but if he has never been a particularly good shooter, perhaps he should be taking 11 shots a game? That's all I'm saying...

    Plus, since we all know Tinsley can't shoot, we're gonna need someone in the backcourt to start making shots...and Marquis Daniels sure ain't gonna get the job done.
    Well, this bigger point I can certainly agree with. We don't have anybody that can consistently hit from outside. Seems Granger is developing into the closest thing we've got. I don't personally like the idea of him at SG though. I'd prefer to see him more involved offensively in a combination that did not include both JO and Al.

    As to Jackson's FGAs, I think that will be reduced as the season progresses due to (hopefully) the continued emergence of Daniels. What I could live with from Jackson is just cutting down on the 3s. More drives to the hoop, midrange jumpers, and post ups.

    I think the overall key, as is being discussed in the starting 5 thread, is finding rotations/combinations that fit better as far as who does and does not command the ball. Right now we've got 4 guys in our starting five that want to dominate it and a coach who seems to see DG's role as more marginal on offense. IMO opinion he should be the 3rd option with Quis/Jack/ and Tins then splitting things up after that, but I'm not calling the shots.

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    I'm willing to accept that he's not a bad player, but if he has never been a particularly good shooter, perhaps he should be taking 11 shots a game? That's all I'm saying...

    Plus, since we all know Tinsley can't shoot, we're gonna need someone in the backcourt to start making shots...and Marquis Daniels sure ain't gonna get the job done.
    1 from the arc.
    5 from the paint.

    What's the problem again? It's not like the guy is chucking tons of misses from the outside. One of those misses was a classic baseline give and go and he got right to the rim and missed it. There was some pressure there, but still. The key is that shots at the rim are what you want, and they help keep other teams from running (long rebounds, defenders pulled toward baseline) and give your guys a chance to come to the basket for the follow-up.

    He dished 4 assists to 1 TO. He continues to load up on steals as well. Jack is doing what a shooter in a slump is supposed to do, limit the outside looks and find other ways to impact the game.

    If he wasn't doing those things he would be on the bench. There is a reason why Sarunas didn't play vs NJ after his awful play vs Boston.

    What I could live with from Jackson is just cutting down on the 3s. More drives to the hoop, midrange jumpers, and post ups.
    Facts from NJ:
    Granger 2-8 from 3
    Jack 0-1 from 3

    Jack took 5 of his 11 shots from IN THE PAINT. Jack took 19 3PA in the first 3 games, only 16 in the next 6, so his outside attempts have dropped in half.

    Meanwhile Granger's 3P% is 32% if you take away the 5-6 vs Chicago. Last year Danny shot it for 32% for the entire season. So IMO until you see him bring a few more 3-5 and 4-6 nights from deep, he probably shouldn't be chucking up 8. He has yet to prove that he's AS GOOD as Jack from 3, let alone better.


    So let's just drop the baggage brought to the table and evaluate these guys on what they have been doing so far THIS year. If Danny gets to 20 games with a 36+ 3P% then I'll buy in, and if Jack returns to shooting more than 1-2 from the arc per game (at a poor % that is) then I'll get on him about that too.

    Jack's shot has been really hurting them, but not because of how many takes. Those are down. The fact is they really need him taking 11-12 and MAKING 45% of them. You gotta have at least a few moderate outside threats.

    Maybe if Danny gets to that 20 game spot and really has proven he has a consistantly strong 3P shot, then you can seriously back down the takes Jack gets. One strong game vs Chicago is not enough though.


    Grades from the last week or so...

    Daniels - A. Outstanding all-around impact, continues to impress with his ability to find his way into the paint off the dribble. Has started hitting outside looks too.

    Al - A. He rebounds stay too low, but its not for lack of effort from what I've seen. His scoring has kept them in games. After those first few games he's been on fire.

    JO - B. His shot has been lacking lately, but like Jack he's making a big contribution on defense (those blocks, wow) and he's been showing great energy at the glass. One concern, has he perhaps lost a bit from his speed and jumping? Seems possible to me.

    Tinsley - C-. He's getting a little better about selecting his looks and backs off after a few misses, but his creative playmaking hasn't really been there very much lately. Standard iffy defense, but you do see him trying to help attack the rebounds more which is nice.

    Granger - B-. At times he is brilliant, but he still plays a young game and hurts things just as much as he helps. Fans are so excited about him as the young talent they overlook this stuff, but it gets pretty ugly at times. I like him and think he'll keep getting better. But so far, not a starter.

    Jack - B-. Apart from a poor start vs Boston he's been great at everything except actually putting the ball in the hoop. Getting him on track, just to his normal averages, would be a monster help

    Armstrong - A. His 3 ball is nuts, his energy is fantastic. He's exactly what you like to see off the bench.

    Foster - B. He's been great at times, but his rebounds aren't there every night (see Boston) and the rest of his game is still limited. He's not quite starter material, but he might be a better fit to start for the Pacers who have too many offensive options starting right now.

    Harrison - C-. I think he's taken a step backward and he really hasn't been the post force the Pacers desperately need him to be.

    Sarunas - D. He's had a couple of good games, but he looks totally overwhelmed most nights.

    Rawle, Greene, Powell, Baston - incompletes, though Rawle does attack the basket well and I feel generally comfortable when he hits the floor. Baston looked a little better vs NJ which was a nice surprise. Nothing special but not a liability either. Powell is still a little rough. Greene showed some promise and I'd like to see some more PT for him since PG is a trouble spot.


    Those were by my expectations for each player, but just overall positive impact on the court from a Pacers view (plenty of other NBA players would be getting A's, at least 2-3 for every team).

    All I can say is thank god for the Dallas trades. No way AC would be matching Daniels level of overall contribution right now, and Armstrong has been really dynamic, just what the doctor ordered.

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    What's up with this troll Whiteone who is always calling out race?

    But anyway, great post Naptown_Seth...

    I completely agree with you about Jackson. He has been doing great, well as good as a guy can who is in a shooting slump. Think if he had been hitting 45-50% of his shots all this time, like we know he should be. He would probably be our MVP. I think this slump is actually helping him by forcing him to focus on the other aspects of the game. And he will be a much better player for it when his shot returns.

    And yes Granger shouldn't be jackin up so many, but alot of his shots are the correct play with the shotclock running down, I'd still like to see him fake it and step in for the mid ranged jumper.

    I think for alot of folks it's hard to really evaluate Jackson and Granger fairly. Granger is the golden boy, and Jackson has all that baggage.

    Anyway, good refreshing post and it mirrored my own thoughts

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    1 from the arc.
    5 from the paint.

    What's the problem again? It's not like the guy is chucking tons of misses from the outside. One of those misses was a classic baseline give and go and he got right to the rim and missed it. There was some pressure there, but still. The key is that shots at the rim are what you want, and they help keep other teams from running (long rebounds, defenders pulled toward baseline) and give your guys a chance to come to the basket for the follow-up.

    He dished 4 assists to 1 TO. He continues to load up on steals as well. Jack is doing what a shooter in a slump is supposed to do, limit the outside looks and find other ways to impact the game.

    If he wasn't doing those things he would be on the bench. There is a reason why Sarunas didn't play vs NJ after his awful play vs Boston.


    Facts from NJ:
    Granger 2-8 from 3
    Jack 0-1 from 3

    Jack took 5 of his 11 shots from IN THE PAINT. Jack took 19 3PA in the first 3 games, only 16 in the next 6, so his outside attempts have dropped in half.

    Meanwhile Granger's 3P% is 32% if you take away the 5-6 vs Chicago. Last year Danny shot it for 32% for the entire season. So IMO until you see him bring a few more 3-5 and 4-6 nights from deep, he probably shouldn't be chucking up 8. He has yet to prove that he's AS GOOD as Jack from 3, let alone better.


    So let's just drop the baggage brought to the table and evaluate these guys on what they have been doing so far THIS year. If Danny gets to 20 games with a 36+ 3P% then I'll buy in, and if Jack returns to shooting more than 1-2 from the arc per game (at a poor % that is) then I'll get on him about that too.

    Jack's shot has been really hurting them, but not because of how many takes. Those are down. The fact is they really need him taking 11-12 and MAKING 45% of them. You gotta have at least a few moderate outside threats.

    Maybe if Danny gets to that 20 game spot and really has proven he has a consistantly strong 3P shot, then you can seriously back down the takes Jack gets. One strong game vs Chicago is not enough though.


    Grades from the last week or so...

    Daniels - A. Outstanding all-around impact, continues to impress with his ability to find his way into the paint off the dribble. Has started hitting outside looks too.

    Al - A. He rebounds stay too low, but its not for lack of effort from what I've seen. His scoring has kept them in games. After those first few games he's been on fire.

    JO - B. His shot has been lacking lately, but like Jack he's making a big contribution on defense (those blocks, wow) and he's been showing great energy at the glass. One concern, has he perhaps lost a bit from his speed and jumping? Seems possible to me.

    Tinsley - C-. He's getting a little better about selecting his looks and backs off after a few misses, but his creative playmaking hasn't really been there very much lately. Standard iffy defense, but you do see him trying to help attack the rebounds more which is nice.

    Granger - B-. At times he is brilliant, but he still plays a young game and hurts things just as much as he helps. Fans are so excited about him as the young talent they overlook this stuff, but it gets pretty ugly at times. I like him and think he'll keep getting better. But so far, not a starter.

    Jack - B-. Apart from a poor start vs Boston he's been great at everything except actually putting the ball in the hoop. Getting him on track, just to his normal averages, would be a monster help

    Armstrong - A. His 3 ball is nuts, his energy is fantastic. He's exactly what you like to see off the bench.

    Foster - B. He's been great at times, but his rebounds aren't there every night (see Boston) and the rest of his game is still limited. He's not quite starter material, but he might be a better fit to start for the Pacers who have too many offensive options starting right now.

    Harrison - C-. I think he's taken a step backward and he really hasn't been the post force the Pacers desperately need him to be.

    Sarunas - D. He's had a couple of good games, but he looks totally overwhelmed most nights.

    Rawle, Greene, Powell, Baston - incompletes, though Rawle does attack the basket well and I feel generally comfortable when he hits the floor. Baston looked a little better vs NJ which was a nice surprise. Nothing special but not a liability either. Powell is still a little rough. Greene showed some promise and I'd like to see some more PT for him since PG is a trouble spot.


    Those were by my expectations for each player, but just overall positive impact on the court from a Pacers view (plenty of other NBA players would be getting A's, at least 2-3 for every team).

    All I can say is thank god for the Dallas trades. No way AC would be matching Daniels level of overall contribution right now, and Armstrong has been really dynamic, just what the doctor ordered.
    I'm with you on Jack, although I'm not opposed to him coming off the bench. I made a post in another thread pointing out his contributions in other cats beside shooting.

    I did, however, float the idea of him ratcheting back the 3PAs but I was basing it on his numbers for the year. Something like 22% compared to DG's over 40% on effectively the same number shots. Maybe NJ 1 attempt for Jack shows he's trying to do that at least until he can find a better stroke.

    I actually think Jack and Quis in certain contexts can be effective on the court at the same time.

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteone View Post
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    refering top deleted post
    What are you doing? Just because you disagree with some of Seth's grades, why are you suggesting it has anything to do with race.

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    I think this slump is actually helping him by forcing him to focus on the other aspects of the game.
    Yeah, I think you might be right about that. I also suspect that the clampdown on arguing with refs is helping, and that the Rio backlash has him on extra good behavior in an attempt to get his rep back in shape a little.

    Hopefully it will stick. He's a much, much better player when he's focused.

    But the shooting I just can't figure. New ball? Or is he pressing? Or is he due for a mega-streak that gets his numbers back up to average?

    He did force too many from the outside last night, but a couple were end of clock bailouts and a few came after makes when he was obviously starting to feel like he was warming up (heat check).

    It didn't feel like nine, and with him a 3-9 night is usually pretty freaking annoying. Of course the box doesn't look as bad for Tins and Sarunas as the game itself did. Not great lines for either of them, but they both played pretty poorly most of the night. Guess the box doesn't have room for negative numbers.


    BTW, game #2 of Danny hitting the 3 well. Keep it up and prove that shot. My only concern is that his offense is starting to become a "camp the arc" style, and he's way too talented to leave it at that. A guy like Jack (and plenty of other outside shooter types) also brings whatever inside game he has.

    At this point DG is starting to slip into James Jones mode, one dimensional offensive threat.

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    During the broadcast the alluded to the idea it's a wrist injury that's turned his shooting from bad to awful.

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpolloloco View Post
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    You can't go running around calling everyone a troll with absolutely no justification. Seth ALWAYS completely backs up his opinions with legitimate evidence. If you want to counter his statement, make one that actually consists of relevant information.

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    Default Re: Official Pacers-Nets Postgame Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ajbry View Post
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    You can't go running around calling everyone a troll with absolutely no justification. Seth ALWAYS completely backs up his opinions with legitimate evidence. If you want to counter his statement, make one that actually consists of relevant information.
    To hit two !!!!!WIDE OPEN!!!!! (especially if Saras is hitting) threes, created by others, is not good
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