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Thread: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Ok, I've got a few min. now so I think I'll put some things down on here.

    I read the post game thread a little & to be frank I just couldn't understand why there was all of the gnashing of teeth going on.

    Show of hands right now, how many people in the pre season rankings thread had the Pacers above the Bulls? I know I didn't, in fact if my memory serves me right I think I have the Bulls winning it all.

    I saw about two & a half quarters of good to great basketball by the Pacers followed by about a quarter of bad play & a half a quarter of really bad play.

    But saying bad play is not really accurate.

    People please believe me when I say this. Scott Skiles is that good of a coach & the Bulls have a lot of good talent on their team.

    I saw the complaints about Rick & let me just say this, there needs to be some middle ground found here.

    No, Rick Carlisle is not the only reason the Pacers were beaten. However Rick Carlisle is not without blame in the fact that the Pacers were beaten.

    Notice I said beaten, I did not say lost.

    Folks the Bulls imposed their wills on us in the second half & turned up the defense so much that they dictated the entire offense we could use. On offense they had so many spaces on the floor & were able to get dribble penetration at will which caused our guys to be out of place for rebounds & frankly let's just be honest here. A lot of loose balls bouned their way during that game.

    Again, Skiles is that good. Scott Skiles IMO is about one of the best coach's in the NBA if not the best.

    I don't feel bad about our team at all after this one. I never once got the feeling the guys were going through the motions or were not trying to win. I think everybody that played gave their all & IMO that is about all you can ask for.

    I think we went toe to toe with what I beleive to be one of the elite teams in the NBA & we had a real chance of winning.

    Now I'm not trying to make this sound like a mindless rah rah post because there were problems & I'll try and address them here. But let's not let our own personnal problems with coach's or players take away from what the Bulls did.

    They won fair & square.

    But as I said there were real problems.

    1. I really wasn't thrilled with what I consider to be some mental lapses in the second half, some by Rick some by the players.

    a. Darrell Armstrong tackled Nocioni. A flagrant 1 would have been issued & that would have been the end of it. But no, he had to argue over that being a flagrant foul? Is he nuts. For that matter running & tackling him was a boneheaded play to begin with but then to compound the problem by arguing against it? That put any hopes of a comeback, however small they were, out the window. It gave them a three point play (three freethrows) and the ball back. I would have expected this from some rookie or even a former nutball of ours but not someone of Darrell's experiance. I was really really really dissapointed in the arguing btw.

    b. Jacksons shot that led to Armstrongs tackling. What in the name of God was that? Did a second even go off of the clock? That was just a horrid uncalled for shot. It didn't lose us the game but it sure showed a real sign of mental weakness IMO. It's a shame to because for the most part Jackson had played a superb game, his defense totally took Gordon out of the game. But that was just down right ugly at the end.

    c. Not to be out done by his players Rick Carlisle decided that the only solution to the Bulls defense was to go to the isolation low post offense that works oh so well against a strong post defender like Wallace. Yes, yes I know he didn't go to it exclusively till the end of the game & I'm sure somebody would say nothing else was working but I will counter with this, it is not what got us our lead & even though the Bulls defense did step up you are not going to beat it with one on one play in the post. Also I do question how long he left some of the subs in the game at the beginning of the fourth quarter. Al should have come in a little faster & frankly Jamaal should have come in a little faster as well.

    d. Our bench really didn't help much other than Foster.

    On other notes.

    How sad is it that our team could not get any rebounds & were being pushed around for a good portion of the night & our 7' 260lbs center can't get off of the bench? To me that pretty much shows that David just is not getting it & I'm almost to the point in saying I don't know that he ever will.

    Just once though I would like to have seen Rick put Josh Powell in the game to see if he could do something. While I really like R. Marshall I do have to say that I wonder if we don't have a few to many of the same kind of player on the active roster.

    Again I say I wonder if Baston could not have had a little better results in the game because of his leaping ability? I'm not sure.

    But again, let's not just assume that this was a horrid loss we played a really good game for the most part.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Member Moses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    I really don't consider the Bulls an elite title contender team in the NBA right now. I found myself grinning at the fact that Ben Wallace was in the game until the 4th quarter when he was jumping over JO and Harrington snatching up rebounds left and right. There is no excuse to get outrebounded the way we did tonight. They had 2nd and 3rd chance shots on nearly every play in the 4th which is what bothered me so bad. We had them beaten..and we would have won in a blowout if we had just rebounded the ball better.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    I disagree. We lost it. I do agree that they played a very good defensive game the second half, but we had more than enough opportunity to win the game. We have zero ability to rebound, and that cost us.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    I think part of the problem, especially in the 4th quarter, can be attributed to 4 games in 5 days. I also believe mental fatigue was very evident last night.

    As Peck said, not a bad loss. Some bad decisions at the end but not a bad loss.


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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Folks the Bulls imposed their wills on us in the second half & turned up the defense so much that they dictated the entire offense we could use. On offense they had so many spaces on the floor & were able to get dribble penetration at will which caused our guys to be out of place for rebounds & frankly let's just be honest here. A lot of loose balls bouned their way during that game.

    I agree 100%. The Bulls had us so stretched out it seemed like the Bulls were playing 5 on 4 especially on the defensive end. We had to get out on the three point shooters, we had to contend with all their pick and rolls. The Bulls can penetrate from 4 postions, when Noc is playing power forward. But you know what, I thought the Pacers contended with all that stuff great. As I mentioned last night I thought it was the Pacers best defensive display of the season. And on the 4th game in 5 nights, I was impressed.

    One problem though - rebounding. A few times we had position, but the Bulls got the ball anyway either due to a long rebound or just be more aggresssive. There were other times, like the Duhon rebound, were we had two of our guys fighting for the ball and knocked to Duhon for a wide open layup. Peck, I agree with another thing you said, the Bulls got every bounce of the ball, I don't quite know what to make of it. Yes the Bulls are quicker, but so many ltimes we tipped the ball but it went right to a Bulls player.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    I was not happy with the last half of the 4th quarter (felt too much like the last two years), but for the most part we played a good game, and there is more each game suggesting we may have a little something here. I'm not going to flip out over this loss.

    As for Armstrong, I have to think he argued for a good reason (unless there's a history I'm unaware of). My guess is he was just wrapping him up, and they probably fell because of his momentum and/or Nocioni was off-balance. Nothing malicious about it, and to me that should be a requisite for calling a flagrant in that situation (where you know we're going to intentionally foul, which would explain a hug of a foul).

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    I was curious about the substitutions Rick used in the second half. They were different that is for sure, more like a playoff game. But certainly not by the book as so many suggested after the game.

    I don't want to bore anyone with this, but here is the run down of who replaced who in the second half.

    3rd quarter:

    5:47 - Jeff replaces Al
    3:56 - Al replaces JO
    3:56 - Daniels replaces Granger
    2:49 - DA replaces JT
    2:49 - Granger replaces Jax
    1:23 - JO replaces Al
    1:23 - Marshal replaces Granger

    4th quarter starts with a lineup of:
    DA, Marshal, Daniels, JO and Jeff

    9:14 - Al replaces JO
    8:49 - Jackson replaces Al
    8:49 - JT reaplces DA

    7:55 - all starters come back in and play the rest of the game until the 19 second mark

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    .

    As for Armstrong, I have to think he argued for a good reason (unless there's a history I'm unaware of). My guess is he was just wrapping him up, and they probably fell because of his momentum and/or Nocioni was off-balance. Nothing malicious about it, and to me that should be a requisite for calling a flagrant in that situation (where you know we're going to intentionally foul, which would explain a hug of a foul).


    I advanced a theory that it almost looked to me like yes DA tackled him, but DA tried to hold him up, but it almost looked to me like Nocioni pulled DA down as he fell. Not sure that makes any sense and I'd have to watch the replay again. Yes this is a wild theory

    The game was over by then anyway.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    I've seen enough to know we are gonna be alright as long as we can avoid the injuries. We were playing a very good team last night. We play 13 of our first 19 on the road and that is tough on any team. 4 games in 5 nights didn't help anything either. Chicago made some plays to win. Hinrich showed why he got the big contract before the season started. I had already decided after the first 19 games if we are above 500 that would be a positive.(11-8 would be nice).

    I see some problems, if Jackson shoots just 40% and 35% from three we have a different outcome in 2 games we lost. He's shooting 31% and 21%, you can't have that from your starting 2. I'm sure he will get better.

    We really don't have a backup center. Harrison actually hurts the team when he is in there. He's the most aggressive center in the league and picks up stupid fouls. I keep thinking he is going to learn but when?

    NOK had a 27 pt lead the other night (against Portland) and lost. So things could be worse. Sure it was ugly against Chicago in the 4th but they have talent and Benny & Hinrich showed why they got the bigbucks. The loose balls and rebounds all went right to Chicago. I am not worried.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    I find it hard to be upset about this loss.

    The way we got pummeled on the boards, no...the loss, yes.

    We played very good basketball, IMO, for most of the game. The 4th quarter, and especially the latter half of the 4th, was sloppy, lacked energy, and was really frustrating to watch. I think, like Hicks said, that part of the game was very reminiscent of the last two years.

    WTF was that pass (to Skiles), then the shot, by Jackson towards the end? He had played a good game again, but those two plays were very costly (of course, the airball combined with the tackle by DA).

    Oh well, like I said, it's hard to be upset about the loss. For as good as Chicago is supposed to be, I thought we played them very well.
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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Yes we collapsed in the 4th, and no, not nice, but............

    "over the back" seems to be a call competely out of fashion, at least it did this game, while "traveling" is the "new" thing.
    3 of JO's 5 to's were just that, a travel call, add to that a charge and a lost ball and there are all TO's by JO.

    with 4 Ast, 3 Bs, nad "only" 8 reb, still team leader, I have a much harder time to call Danny on a "good" game, despite making 55 3pt shots, I would've preferred some rebounding from him, just like from Al.
    I know it is easy to blame it all on JO but when your point-guard has 5 rebounds while you PF/SF combine for 5 rebounds then something's amiss.

    In general however I was very happy with the 9 Ast, 5 reb and a Bs from Tins, as well as with JO's line, though I would have liked to see him score more, but I am also convinced that the high scoring games will come soon enough.

    This team is getting used to each other, between game 1 and now the starters have gelled, now the rotations need to gel, give it 10 more games and I am sure we will look completely different at things.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    It's not that big of a deal, and was a loss that could be reasonably expected
    at this point...even if the P's weren't as fatigued as they appeared down the
    final stretch. The Bulls are a decent team who played with more energy
    when it counted.

    It was nice to see the P's keeping the game close as they did, in spite of
    being so thorougly out-rebounded. If the Bull's hadn't won, Skiles likely
    would have gone ballistic - and their players knew it.

    We'll be seeing the Bulls again in 30 days (Dec. 11th in Chicago...we'll also
    be at Cleveland on the 9th, and have Detroit home on the 13th). If nothing
    bad happens, the Pacers should be a tougher to beat team by then.

    By then the P's will have had more time to work with each other and further
    find themselves, which will hopefully lead to better maintaining their collective
    composure when the game is on the line.


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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    WTF was that pass (to Skiles), then the shot, by Jackson towards the end?
    He used to play for the Pacers. Granted it was 20 years ago, but once a Pacer always a Pacer. Right?

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    I was very impressed with the defense that I saw being played. Even the Bulls announcers were becoming frustrated at the lack of offense Chicago was able to initiate, and credited a large part of that to our length and ability to play the passing lanes. If you watch some of our guys, they are positioning themselves perfectly in many instances; just enough to deny the pass as well as guard against the jump shot. It also helps when you have a freakishly long wingspan like so many of our players do.

    Danny came away from this game with a good stat line. That was nice to see, sure; but do people like seeing him utilized like he was? Is that what you want from Danny on a nightly basis?

    0 rebounds? 6 three-point attempts?

    Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather see Dany used for more gritty work underneath the boards. He is probably our best rebounder, and for him to have 0 rebounds in a game like last night is shocking. Perhaps giving him some time at the power forward spot can help him in the rebounding department (like a Shawn Marion role).

    I would also like to see him take more mid-range jumpshots opposed to camping out behind the three point line. Can you imagine if his shot was not falling last night? His game suddenly wouldn't have been all that spectacular. That's the point I'm trying to make...Danny can do so many things on the floor that it's a shame to see him become almost a 3-point specialist. He should be one of those players who have an impact on the game regardless of whether or not he is scoring. I saw him make some good deflections in the passing lane on defense, but I just would like to see him playing underneath the net more.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Quote Originally Posted by grace View Post
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    He used to play for the Pacers. Granted it was 20 years ago, but once a Pacer always a Pacer. Right?
    That is a fact. Plus, from my perspective, it looked like Skiles was calling for the ball. Since he was a 3 point specialist Jax probably thought "what the heck I can't hit it" so he passed it to him. Good pass though, right in the hands, however, he was out of bounds.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Since the post game thread turned into an argument over whose fault the loss was, I want to move my thoughts over here:

    That would have been a big win on the road against a real good team.

    First time I've seen the boys on TV, so this might get long.

    Offense really slowed down in the 4th, mainly because the Bulls controlled the time of possession w/ all of their o-boards. Normally I'd blast JO for not being aggressive on the boards, but tonight falls on Al and Granger. They need to help out down there because the Deng and Nocioni were following Wallace's lead and hitting the boards hard.

    Tinsley looked slow during that final quarter. He wasn't attacking on the p&r like he was earlier in the game. (This is how Granger was WIDE open in the corner all night. He wasn't exactly creating his own shot for those of you frustrated that the offense didn't run through him) It seemed like every shot we took was contested and the ball movement wasn't as crisp.

    Jack played the best defense I have ever seen him play. He made Hinrich work on every possession. That late 3 was just good execution by the Bulls. I liked what I saw from Jack on that end of the floor tonight. His offense was frustrating because normally when we play the Bulls he gets a lot of post touches. It did seem like we focused too much on JO in the 4th and forgot to give Jack or Al some touches.

    JO has become the best big man in the league at taking charges. He really understands when to go for the block and when to stay planted.

    Sarunas is going to make Carlisle's PG rotation real easy to decide when O. Greene comes back. I hope he has some nice European suits because if the shots not falling, there is no reason for him to play.

    Armstrong looked a step slow tonight. It was only a matter of time. He's old, there will be the occasional off night. The end of the game was just frustration and officials overreacting. (Picking up his initial comments on WGN, he said to the ref that Hinrich pushed him into Nocioni, which obviously gave him the momentum for the tackle) I hope he doesn't get suspended because he's Tinsley ONLY backup right now.

    My final thought deals with Marquis Daniels. I was waiting to see him on TV before I commented on his game. Offensively he just looks out of place. Carlisle let him go 1 on 1 a few times at the beginning of the 4th and he scored, split 2 FTs, and airballed a floater. I like the idea of playing Armstrong off the ball and letting Daniels create a little bit. We've got to get him playing with some confidence ASAP.

    Tough loss, but still 4-3. There was more good than bad tonight.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Yes we collapsed in the 4th, and no, not nice, but............

    "over the back" seems to be a call competely out of fashion, at least it did this game, while "traveling" is the "new" thing.
    3 of JO's 5 to's were just that, a travel call, add to that a charge and a lost ball and there are all TO's by JO.

    with 4 Ast, 3 Bs, nad "only" 8 reb, still team leader, I have a much harder time to call Danny on a "good" game, despite making 55 3pt shots, I would've preferred some rebounding from him, just like from Al.
    I know it is easy to blame it all on JO but when your point-guard has 5 rebounds while you PF/SF combine for 5 rebounds then something's amiss.

    In general however I was very happy with the 9 Ast, 5 reb and a Bs from Tins, as well as with JO's line, though I would have liked to see him score more, but I am also convinced that the high scoring games will come soon enough.

    This team is getting used to each other, between game 1 and now the starters have gelled, now the rotations need to gel, give it 10 more games and I am sure we will look completely different at things.

    You know I thought that was going on a lot last night as well & one play in particular I though Nacioni went over Al's back.

    But then I went back & looked at it twice & I'll be d@mned if he didn't even touch Al. He just simply outjumped him.

    Also on a side note, J.O. should only have had 2 blocks last night. Al blocked that drive in the second half, not J.O. but he got credit for it.

    Another thing I don't think we have been making a big enough deal of Jeff Fosters new shot blocking rampage. Adding this to the arsenal improves him as a defender 100 fold IMO.


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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama-Redneck View Post
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    I think part of the problem, especially in the 4th quarter, can be attributed to 4 games in 5 days. I also believe mental fatigue was very evident last night.

    As Peck said, not a bad loss. Some bad decisions at the end but not a bad loss.

    You know I totally forgot about that. It was 4 games in 5 nights, that makes me feel even better about this loss.

    I'm sure by the end of the 4th our guys were just worn out & that is when things collapsed on us.

    I'm telling you guys, this is not a bad loss at all. This is not like the Bucks collapse from last season or anything like it.


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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    You know I totally forgot about that. It was 4 games in 5 nights, that makes me feel even better about this loss.

    I'm sure by the end of the 4th our guys were just worn out & that is when things collapsed on us.

    I'm telling you guys, this is not a bad loss at all. This is not like the Bucks collapse from last season or anything like it.


    Peck, you're scaring me, I could have written your post.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Last night was the only game ive seen on TV all season. I do think Carlisle lost this game for us. Rawle Marshall should of got his minutes much earlier, but that is a minor thing.

    I think we lost the game when we ran that ISO play for Jermaine in the post near the end of the 4th quarter. If we scored on that possession, I honestly think we would of won. All we had to do was...gee...i dunno...move the ball a little bit?

    Also jermaines rebounds weren't impressive. I can think of at least 4 rebounds that just bounced directly into his hand, he didn't do anything to get those boards. He also stole a rebound from Tinsley just to hand it right back to him, so he could get the extra rebound. Jermaine will always have a little bit of that quality (wanting to make his stat line impressive) and it is very counter productive to winning.

    But our team defense was the best i've seen it in a LONGGGGG time and I was very impressed with the first three quarters of play and especially Al Harringtons offense/defense. Granger had a good shooting night, but that was it. Carlisle is retarded for not calling his number in the 4th.

    Anyways, I would trade Jermaine for Kirk Hinrich/1st round pick in a HEARTBEAT and anybody who wouldn't is insane.

    Al Harrington is twice the offensive threat as JO and Granger can also put the ball in the hoop.

    I love Hinrichs game and Chicago would probably laugh at that trade. The bulls are going to be an elite team for the next 2-3 years if Ben Wallace can maintain his level of play.

    I am also sure we could trade Tins/Sarunas for a decent big man that can play defense to replace what we would miss from Jermaine on the defensive end.

    But I am just dreaming, I just wish Hinrich was a pacer...sorry guys i'll start to pretend like this team is gonna do real good things with JO as "our guy."
    *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore View Post
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    Last night was the only game ive seen on TV all season. I do think Carlisle lost this game for us. Rawle Marshall should of got his minutes much earlier, but that is a minor thing.

    I think we lost the game when we ran that ISO play for Jermaine in the post near the end of the 4th quarter. If we scored on that possession, I honestly think we would of won. All we had to do was...gee...i dunno...move the ball a little bit?

    Also jermaines rebounds weren't impressive. I can think of at least 4 rebounds that just bounced directly into his hand, he didn't do anything to get those boards. He also stole a rebound from Tinsley just to hand it right back to him, so he could get the extra rebound. Jermaine will always have a little bit of that quality (wanting to make his stat line impressive) and it is very counter productive to winning.

    But our team defense was the best i've seen it in a LONGGGGG time and I was very impressed with the first three quarters of play and especially Al Harringtons offense/defense. Granger had a good shooting night, but that was it. Carlisle is retarded for not calling his number in the 4th.

    Anyways, I would trade Jermaine for Kirk Hinrich/1st round pick in a HEARTBEAT and anybody who wouldn't is insane.

    Al Harrington is twice the offensive threat as JO and Granger can also put the ball in the hoop.

    I love Hinrichs game and Chicago would probably laugh at that trade. The bulls are going to be an elite team for the next 2-3 years if Ben Wallace can maintain his level of play.

    I am also sure we could trade Tins/Sarunas for a decent big man that can play defense to replace what we would miss from Jermaine on the defensive end.

    But I am just dreaming, I just wish Hinrich was a pacer...sorry guys i'll start to pretend like this team is gonna do real good things with JO as "our guy."
    Jon you know I share a lot of the same concerns you do regarding Jermaine. I always have.

    But in this case I just think you might be looking the wrong way.

    Jermaine did not call that isolation play at the end of the game & to be honest if it was the only time it was ran or he was the only one running it I might be willing to believe he called his own play but Jackson also had a couple of isolation plays down at the end. I think it's safe to say that Rick called those plays.

    I agree moving the ball would have been a good idea, in fact if we never ran another isolation play again for all of eternity I would be fine with it. But you have to give some credit to the Bulls here, they shut down the passing lanes.

    However I want to also agree with you that our team defense last night was very good & in fact if we could have gotten a couple of more rebounds I think we could have closed out the game.

    Still though for 4 games in 5 nights I though they did very well.


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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    Observations


    1--Jackson should never take an important shot late in the game.

    2--The team defense was incredible.

    3--I believe they became very tired in the third and fell apart in the fourth.

    4--Granger should play the scoring guard spot more and Baston or Powell
    play for rebound help. Granger is far and away the Pacers best
    3 point shooter. You could see it coming last year. He looks very
    solid taking the three.

    I agree with Peck that this was not a bad loss. The team obviously made up its mind to compete and they almost pulled it off.
    {o,o}
    |)__)
    -"-"-

  23. #23

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about the Chicago loss.....

    No loss is a good loss, but this one was almost OK.

    Danny G was great on the perimeter shooting, but rebounds weren't part of his success. What did he have 1? Deng had 12.

    We clearly ran out of energy and I assume that was due to the deservedly so tired legs.

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