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Thread: John Kerry belittles US troops

  1. #51
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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthman View Post
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    That was certainly no formal speech. Looked to me like he was talking extemperaneously to a relatively small group of campaign workers.

    No, he was addressing students on a college campus. Don't recall what college and don't really care myself.

    And it certainly was a formal speech. His own speechwriters have said that. He was speaking from a script - dunno if he had it in front of him or memorized (though he looked down enough for me to think he had a written script or notes). If it was extemporaneous then I'd be much more inclined to believe what he said is how he feels than if he just botched a line.

    In either case, it's good old John Kerry who seems to think using a bunch of one-liners before college students is an appropriate way to discuss the War in Iraq and the Presidency.

    That's fine for SNL, not for someone who ran for President.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  2. #52

    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    No, he was addressing students on a college campus. Don't recall what college and don't really care myself.

    And it certainly was a formal speech. His own speechwriters have said that. He was speaking from a script - dunno if he had it in front of him or memorized (though he looked down enough for me to think he had a written script or notes). If it was extemporaneous then I'd be much more inclined to believe what he said is how he feels than if he just botched a line.
    Let's see a link where his speech writers said the speech was a formal one.

    Formal speeches aren't usually given with laughing admirers standing all around. Check the video.

    It's really not at all important, but I had read that the speech was at Pasadena City College in California. (I remembered that because I took a class or two there decades ago)

    The appearance on the campus, I assume at a rally sponsored by campus Young Democrats, was political - it was on behalf of the Democrat running for governor in California.

    I googled for a source and here is what I found:

    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

    The verbal firefight was triggered by what Kerry says was a botched joke.

    In his Monday appearance at Pasadena City College for Democrat gubernatorial candidate Phil Angelides, Kerry delivered several lines, such as Bush had lived in Texas but now "lives in a state of denial."

    Then he said: "You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq." There were a few polite titters from the audience.

  3. #53

    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    I will also say, looking at the words in print, how could it be anything else other than Kerry's one liner was supposed to be a Bush joke? The jokes preceding the stuck in Iraq reference were about the President and Iraq, why not this one?

    Bush had lived in Texas but now "lives in a state of denial.
    Don't know if the cause of returning some checks and balances on the President to Washington on election day has been hurt, but one good thing is that I hope Mr. Kerry can forget any presidential aspirations he had. One less obstacle for Barack Obama.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthman View Post
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    Let's see a link where his speech writers said the speech was a formal one.

    Formal speeches aren't usually given with laughing admirers standing all around. Check the video.

    It's really not at all important, but I had read that the speech was at Pasadena City College in California. (I remembered that because I took a class or two there decades ago)

    The appearance on the campus, I assume at a rally sponsored by campus Young Democrats, was political - it was on behalf of the Democrat running for governor in California.

    I googled for a source and here is what I found:

    http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories
    It WAS a formal speech - any speech where the speaker knows the topic in advance and is able to prepare for is a formal speech.

    If it wasn't a formal speech it would be an extemporaneous speech - one where he didn't know the topic beforehand and didn't have time to prepare.

    If he knew in advance he would be speaking and if he was in control of the topic it's a formal speech. Doesn't matter if he's delivering a eulogy at a funeral, delivering the keynote address at the National Democratic Convention or presenting it to a bunch of headless chickens at the Tyson plant just before they're packaged for retail sale.

    It certainly wasn't some off-the-cuff rah-rah, let's-win-one-for-the-Gipper remarks to a bunch of campaign workers.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  5. #55

    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    It certainly wasn't some off-the-cuff rah-rah, let's-win-one-for-the-Gipper remarks to a bunch of campaign workers.
    Well, I don't know how off-the-cuff it was, or rah-rah, but it was a speech made in a campaign appearance, if the report I quoted is correct, which I am sure it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    It WAS a formal speech - any speech where the speaker knows the topic in advance and is able to prepare for is a formal speech.

    If it wasn't a formal speech it would be an extemporaneous speech - one where he didn't know the topic beforehand and didn't have time to prepare.

    If he knew in advance he would be speaking and if he was in control of the topic it's a formal speech. Doesn't matter if he's delivering a eulogy at a funeral, delivering the keynote address at the National Democratic Convention or presenting it to a bunch of headless chickens at the Tyson plant just before they're packaged for retail sale.
    Lots of laughs. Certainly can't argue with that. By your definition, John Kerry probably hasn't given an extemporaneous speech since speech club.

  6. #56

    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Is someone really arguing that it doesn't matter because he was at PCC (it's just a few miles from me) standing around students? Arnold visits the campus, too, when he stops by LA to campaign. By the way PCC is a junior college most of the students I know who go there weren't the ones who got good grades. It makes the statement all that much more laughable.

    I just want to see the party who can admit its mistakes admit them.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    I'd be interested to see what kind of grades Kerry got, I've not heard much about it.
    According to the link I posted above, Kerry got worse grades than Bush.

  8. #58

    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    According to the link I posted above, Kerry got worse grades than Bush.
    It's also very, very biased, so I didn't read it much. Is there anything concrete, like listed GPAs, SAT scores, and where the info came from?

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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    You are joking right?
    http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1995/40737-0920.html

    That was from 1995. It puts MIT 1st, Harvard 4th.

    That's besides the point, however. A Harvard education isn't really any better than an MBA from IU. The difference is the perception. Harvard has this mystique, and they perpetuate that by bringing in rich boys that they hope will be famous politicians/businessmen. Poor kids feverishly apply so that they can be amongst the elite. Then, when you graduate from there, you're part of the "club" so you get paid more. A C-student at Harvard is no better educated than a C-student at IU, especially where we're talking about Business Administration. Bottom line, I'm more interested in their GPA than where they attained it, unless you're talking major university vs. Phoenix Online University

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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    It's also very, very biased, so I didn't read it much.
    Biased against both major political parties? Fits my bias pretty well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar
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    Is there anything concrete, like listed GPAs, SAT scores, and where the info came from?
    Google "bush kerry grades". First link.

    http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...uster_student/

    EDIT: Oh, the second link is much better. http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1421232/posts

    "Bush received one D in four years - a 69 in astronomy. Kerry got four D's his freshman year - in two history courses, a political-science class and his worst, 61, two points from failing, in geology."

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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    That was from 1995. It puts MIT 1st, Harvard 4th.
    That list isn't about business schools, it's about doctoral programs. It's good for MIT, but not really germane to this discussion. Everybody's first in something: MIT has a great materials science division, but a Harvard MBA is the best-respected MBA in America. By the way, the difference between MIT and Harvard is still a much smaller gap than between Harvard and IU (which didn't make the list).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar
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    That's besides the point, however. A Harvard education isn't really any better than an MBA from IU.
    Obviously not a true statement. A google search on "best MBA" quickly finds this Forbes article, which says that the top 10 business schools in America are Harvard, Columbia, Chicago, Dartmouth (Tuck), Yale, Penn. (Wharton), Stanford, UNC (Kenan-Flagler), N'Western (Kellogg), and Virginia (Darden). In that order. Again, IU didn't make the list.

    But even if we assume your statement is true (which Forbes says it's not), an MIT education isn't any better than a Harvard one. So your "it's not exactly MIT" statement makes even less sense. If one school is the same as the next, why mock him for what school he went to?

    If I'm understanding this right, you're actively arguing against your own position. How bizarre.

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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1995/40737-0920.html

    That was from 1995. It puts MIT 1st, Harvard 4th.

    That's besides the point, however. A Harvard education isn't really any better than an MBA from IU. The difference is the perception. Harvard has this mystique, and they perpetuate that by bringing in rich boys that they hope will be famous politicians/businessmen. Poor kids feverishly apply so that they can be amongst the elite. Then, when you graduate from there, you're part of the "club" so you get paid more. A C-student at Harvard is no better educated than a C-student at IU, especially where we're talking about Business Administration. Bottom line, I'm more interested in their GPA than where they attained it, unless you're talking major university vs. Phoenix Online University
    Eindar, I'm keeping this post. I think this is the only thing you've ever wrote (on this forum) that I agree with. WoW!

    Undergraduate is basically the same at any major university. Graduate programs can differentiate substantially though, especially with Law School. Personally I wouldn't go to Harvard or Yale; the universities don't represent the same principles they were founded on.

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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    Bottom line, I'm more interested in their GPA than where they attained it, unless you're talking major university vs. Phoenix Online University
    And what is wrong wiith Univeristy of Phoenix?

    I know several people who have MBA's from there and I can tell you they worked their asses off for the degree they got.

    My wife took several classes online with them. And if anything, they actually make it harder because there is a lot more work to do to help replace the classroom lectures. You still get the lectures, they are just in written form.

    Just because its a majority online univeristy does not mean its not legit.

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    Wow - I don't often tip-toe in here but on occasion I will. I will also virtually never express my own opinion on things, but, will provide some observations and pass along what I have heard others say.

    1. There has been virtually no comment about what Kerry said, at least at the camp I am at.

    2. The most least respected person in Iraq because of comments and actions is far and away Donald Rumsfeld. I have never heard one positive thing said about him and most of the service people I have listened to think the man is totally clueless. I will just let you take a guess who is #2.

    3. Today's Army. Vastly minority. Surprisingly out of shape.

    4. Listening to politicians here only leads to morale problems.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by ABADays View Post
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    Wow - I don't often tip-toe in here but on occasion I will. I will also virtually never express my own opinion on things, but, will provide some observations and pass along what I have heard others say.

    1. There has been virtually no comment about what Kerry said, at least at the camp I am at.

    2. The most least respected person in Iraq because of comments and actions is far and away Donald Rumsfeld. I have never heard one positive thing said about him and mosty of the service people I have listened to think the man is totally clueless. I will just let you take a guess who is #2.

    3. Today's Army. Vastly minority. Surprisingly out of shape.

    4. Listening to politicians here only leads to morale problems.
    Thanks for the first hand report. Interesting.

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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    That list isn't about business schools, it's about doctoral programs. It's good for MIT, but not really germane to this discussion. Everybody's first in something: MIT has a great materials science division, but a Harvard MBA is the best-respected MBA in America. By the way, the difference between MIT and Harvard is still a much smaller gap than between Harvard and IU (which didn't make the list).


    Obviously not a true statement. A google search on "best MBA" quickly finds this Forbes article, which says that the top 10 business schools in America are Harvard, Columbia, Chicago, Dartmouth (Tuck), Yale, Penn. (Wharton), Stanford, UNC (Kenan-Flagler), N'Western (Kellogg), and Virginia (Darden). In that order. Again, IU didn't make the list.

    But even if we assume your statement is true (which Forbes says it's not), an MIT education isn't any better than a Harvard one. So your "it's not exactly MIT" statement makes even less sense. If one school is the same as the next, why mock him for what school he went to?

    If I'm understanding this right, you're actively arguing against your own position. How bizarre.
    Here's the deal. I guess what I really meant in the original statement is that if you're a computer engineer at MIT, you're the absolute best of the best in computer engineering in your age group, no contest. If you're a business student at Harvard, you're either very bright or well connected. What I'm saying is that saying "he went to Harvard" could mean "He's very intelligent" or it could mean "his dad is wealthy and politically important". It certainly does not mean that you're one of the top students in the country, and if you graduate, you don't neccessarily come equipped with better business acumen than a guy who graduated from a state university. There's no corrolary when you say "he graduated with an engineering degree from MIT". A statement like that says you're among the top 0.1% or whatever in your field, and it shows when you go interview for NASA or other top engineering firms.

    I guess it's like a talent vs. education standpoint. The best simply have both. Harvard lets people in that have connections along with an IQ in the 80s. MIT doesn't. The education is roughly the same, so two equally talented students, one from say, IU, one from Yale, are going to be equally qualified for a job. The only real control is what talent you bring in, which, I believe, Harvard doesn't do nearly as good a job as they once did.

    Make sense now?

  17. #67

    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyron View Post
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    And what is wrong wiith Univeristy of Phoenix?

    I know several people who have MBA's from there and I can tell you they worked their asses off for the degree they got.

    My wife took several classes online with them. And if anything, they actually make it harder because there is a lot more work to do to help replace the classroom lectures. You still get the lectures, they are just in written form.

    Just because its a majority online univeristy does not mean its not legit.
    I go to Indiana Institute of Technology, so please, understand I'm not being a snob about where somebody went to school. What I'm saying is that, in my experience, the content is watered down a bit for easier consumption, and as there is only so much time in a day, you lose a little bit of the content over the course of 20+ chapters in a book. It still passes muster in terms of accreditation, but, to put it simply, I don't learn as much at IIT as I did at IUPUI, and I don't have to work nearly as hard for that A. That might be because the classes are smaller, and it might be because the instructors actually give a damn about whether you're passing/learning, but I've got a feeling that it's got at least a little to do with the smaller learning curve.

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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by BoomBaby31 View Post
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    Undergraduate is basically the same at any major university. Graduate programs can differentiate substantially though, especially with Law School.
    As someone who attended Cornell University and Albany State let me say that I couldn't disagree more with this.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    As someone who attended Cornell University and Albany State let me say that I couldn't disagree more with this.
    Which way? You disagree that undergrad is the same, or that grad is different?

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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Which way? You disagree that undergrad is the same, or that grad is different?
    undergrad - couldn't speak for Grad though I have suspicions based on the size of the school & amount of research dollars.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    What an interesting turn this thread took.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  22. #72
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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    i think it should be pointed out that the bit right before the edited clip circulating everywhere. “Yesterday I was in the state of Texas, as you all know, President Bush used to live there. Now he lives in the state of denial. The state of deception.” then he launched into the comments about education. the bit before the sound bite circulating is quite revealing.

    http://video.johnkerry.com/video/flash/103006_ca.html

    its around the 2 minute mark. It seems clear to the audience that its a joke about Bush. As far as I can tell, the only botched part was specifically saying Bush in the joke - allowing people to twist it out of context. it comes from kerry's website true but it is one long, unedited shot.

    i think it should also be pointed out that while mccain was calling for kerry to apologize to the iraq veterans he insulted, he was stumping for an Illinois republican, and urging Illinoisians to vote against a Democrat who lost two legs in Iraq.

    it is also interesting that no conservatives expressed as much outrage with Bush saying "Iraq will just be a comma"

  23. #73
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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    I still don't see where Kerry gets off insulting Bush's grades when Kerry actually got worse grades, especially in history and political science.

  24. #74

    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I still don't see where Kerry gets off insulting Bush's grades when Kerry actually got worse grades, especially in history and political science.

    Although your point is valid, one percentage point makes them equally dumb. You're painting it like Kerry got Ds and Bush was a B+ student.

  25. #75
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    Default Re: John Kerry belittles US troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    Although your point is valid, one percentage point makes them equally dumb. You're painting it like Kerry got Ds and Bush was a B+ student.
    Nope, I'm painting it like any Presidential candidate who got Ds in political science shouldn't make fun of other people's grades.

    I'd say the same thing if Bush was talking about Kerry. But it's Kerry that's talking about grades.

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